Has anyone replaced the stock front sway bar with the hotchkis 1 1/4 replacement. Just wondering how much difference the new performance bar makes?

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The Hotchkis bar makes a HUGE difference. The entire front end is stiffer and more responsive.

Just make sure the rest of the suspension is in good shape. My front end had some slack I was able to trace to the steering box. It made the car dart around when I made even minor steering corrections. You can adjust the box to take up the slack, but I am upgrading to an AGR rebuilt quick ratio box. The car is on jack stands in the garage as I type this reply.

I installed the bar and springs and it makes a giant difference. Between night and day. I would recommend the Hotchkis bar. It is light and does what it is supposed to.

Kent
67 SS 427

I'm about to start a major rebuild of my 69. I'm going to start with the front end. Won't bore you here with a bunch of my plans. I see there was mention of the AGR quick ratio steering box. I'm not up on my steering boxes. Is the AGR quick ratio a manual box or is it a power steering box? I had thought about adding power steering to my car but if I can get the same steering response with a quick ratio I'll go that route maybe. Can anyone help me understand the difference in these, if indeed there are any?

The AGR box is a 12:1 quick ratio power box. I'll let everyone know what its like after I finish installing it this week end.

How much bigger is better? Most of the aftermarket replacements hi po bars are 1", same as a stock Z28 bar. I've also seen 1 1/8 and 1 1/4. Any opinion on the definition of too big?

Guys, if I'm not mistaken, the Hotchkis bar for 67-69 F-bodies is actually 1 1/8" in diameter. Check out their website www.hotchkisperformance.com. (http://www.hotchkisperformance.com.) Looks like a good bar. Take care.

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69 SSRS Frame-off Resto
81 Z-28 377ci Drag Car

Be aware that the Hotchkis bar at 1 1/8 inches is hollow. Most 1 inch bars are solid.

Scott

The people at Guldstrand said that the Hotchkis swaybar was too thick, even though it was hollow. They recommend a 1 inch max diameter swaybar. I heard this AFTER I bought my Hotchkis bar. However, I bet the Hotchkis bar is half the weight of the standard 1 inch solid swaybar.

The AGR box and pump are great!! I finished the install today. The box is a high effort one like current model T/As and Z-28s. Much more effort than the stock box.

With my suspension upgrade almost complete, you can really feel the lack of camber gain in the stock suspension geometry in tight corners (upgrades = stiffer lowering springs, Hotchkis bar, AGR steering box and pump, 245/50/16 tires; poly graphite a-arm bushings are next). I can feel the car turning on the outer edge of the tire. It's kind of scary.
However, driving around town the combination of the new box and Hotchkis swaybar are a substantial improvement over the stock set-up. The car changes directions much faster and smoother than before.

If someone can give me the OD and ID or wall thickness of the Hotchkis bar, I can calculate the spring rate.

So in everyone's opinion, is it best to stay with the original equipment or to go with the hotchkis bar?

I also understood that hotchkis has a solid bar at 1 1/4 and the hollow is 1 1/8. Anyone know for sure?

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davidpozzi-
I've been trying to get the numbers as well but no luck so far. It would be interesting to compare the weight/stiffness ratios. Maybe a good guess would be to take the length and weight of the bar and calculate a wall thickness? It would not be perfect but I bet you could come pretty close to a standard wall thinkness.

Carl,
Your suggestion sounds good. I'd imagine the hollow bar is equivalent to a one inch solid bar. I checked out the hotchkis springs- they rate 600 lbs per inch. that's a pretty racy spring rate for a small block. Plenty stiff. My old autocross springs were about 650 lbs. I passed my old 550 lb springs to a friend with a 69 Camaro and he likes 'em. so I guess springs in the range of 550 would be nice street springs, and 600 to 650 for track use, kinda stiff for street. Maybe 700+ would be race only.

Gheatly-

So what do you think of the sway bar? You sounded happy with it until Guldstrand said it was too thick? Did they give a reason for not going above 1" ??? The other people that posted seem to like the Hotchkis bar as well...

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Shawn Peterson
1969 Z28, 406SB
http://www.geocities.com/corsican69

I am perfectly happy with the Hotchkis bar and I would definately upgrade the stock bar to something bigger. I like the weight savings of the hollow bar. My friend just got a 1 1/4 solid bar for his 72 T/A and that sucker is HEAVY.

I was able to slightly twist my stock bar with my arms. It was VERY flimsy. I don't think the stock bar does much in terms of performance.

Another thing about the bigger bar. It really tightens the front suspension up in terms of up and down travel. It was almost like adding springs with a higher spring rate. With the stock bar, I could push down on one of the front fenders and get the car bouncing a good inch or two. Now, I can hardly make it bounce at all. I can sit on the fender and it moves down maybe 1/2 an inch.

[This message has been edited by gheatly (edited 02-21-2000).]

Oh Boy! then money has to get in the way. Picked up my summit catalog to order a hotchkish bar, said ouch at $180. Looked in my D&R catalog, they have a 1 1/8" bar, w/ poly bushings, for $110. Is it hollow, does it matter? What to do, What to do....

There's an ad in here for a 1-1/8" bar for $70 - dated 2/16/00. Might be worth checking out.

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Scott
'69 400SB, Richmond 5-speed; '99 HD Road King Classic
www.geocities.com/sdenning1 (http://www.geocities.com/sdenning1)

JimM,

The Hotchkis bar is the only one I am aware of currently on the market that is hollow. There is a significant weight difference between a hollow bar and a solid one - at least 10-15 pounds.

So heres my question: Other than weight differential is one bar significantly stiffer than the other? I need a new sway bar but if I can save a hundred bucks...

Just a wild guess, but I suspect the "rate" on the hollow 1 1/8 bar is similar to a solid 1 inch bar.

I don't think you loose a significant amount of torsional resistance because the bar is hollow.

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Hugger Orange & white 69 Camaro with supercharged 350, Tremec TKO, and 3.73 12-bolt

think NPD has the same bar as the D&R catalog(1 1/8" bar, w/ poly bushings, D&R - $110) for $99 if you want to save $11. I too would like to know if the Hotchkis bar is worth the extra $80.

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To see a pic of my car, click here... pages.prodigy.net/mtbmtb/rf396ss.jpg (http://pages.prodigy.net/mtbmtb/rf396ss.jpg)

This webpage on Swaybar Design by Scott Mueller may be of some help. It gets fairly technical and goes over the John Hotchkis and Herb Adams sway bars.
http://www.theherd.com/articles/swaybar.html

Scott

davidpozzi-

Had some spare time on the plane and ran some numbers. If the Hotchkis bar is 1 1/8 with a 0.125 wall (closest std wall thickness), it has the same torsional spring rate as a 1" solid bar and comes in at 1/2 the weight. If one was to run a 1 1/8" solid bar, it would be equal to running 1" solid bar plus a 7/8" bar. The 1 1/8" solid bar is 60+% stiffer than a 1" solid bar. The Hotchkis bar appears to be a quality part that has very little cross-sectional area change along the bends (leads to torsional buckling.)If someone ever comes across a 1" solid and Hotchkis 1 1/8" hollow bar it would be very interesting to weigh them. For me, a 1" solid or Hotchkis 1 1/8" hollow is plenty.

gheatly -
What do you use your car mostly for? how harsh is the ride with the Hotchkis 1 1/8" bar? I ask because I'm building my car to be a semi-daily driver (only when the sun's out) and would like to keep the ride as smooth as possible. I'd also like to do some "canyon carving" as they call it out west, but that won't be very often. There are no canyons in Memphis, but maybe I can get out to the motorsports park if they have any events such as that.

im looking at getting a hotchkis bar for my 67 but id like for it to ride pretty smooth too. how will this bar effect the ride on a basically stock suspension?

I just recieved an E-Mail from Hotchkis. Their front bar is 1 1/8" in diamiter by .120 wall.

Given that information, I've figured the bar rates and resulting wheel rates in lbs, and weight of the bar.

dia-----#at bar----#at wheel---weight of bar
11/16"--111---------84---------7.5
7/8"----291---------221--------12.2
1"------497---------377--------16
1.125"--597---------452--------7.8----hollow

ScottLD Thanks for the link. He mentions heat treated bars have scale on them, so the hotchkis bar must not be heat treated, or had been polished after.
Many parts are heat treated and have a fairly good finish. Like bolts, connecting rods, etc. There are several ways to do it. The trick is to keep oxygen from attacking the hot metal. Parts are wrapped in a foil, submerged in hot solutions, etc. almost all aluminum is treated in hot salt baths.

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 02-27-2000).]

Well, lots of action here over the weekend. After I left work Friday I went to D&R and picked up a major front end kit, 4 KYB shocks, and the 1 1/8" bar for $109. The bar is from Addco. It's big and shiny and heavy and I think I'll like it. Thanks to David's website, I have a useable template for the guhlstrand mod. The drivers side is ready to go back together after I drill those holes, might have a 4 legged car again in a coupla weeks. Thanks for the input.

I am building my car in the "pro touring" style. I don't drive it everyday, but after getting the new paint, I might start driving it more often.

With the various upgrades I've done so far, the "putt around town" feel is very similar to my 91 Mustang GT daily driver.

I think the Hotchkis bar would be fine on a daily driver. It will tighten up the front end. It will feel as if you added higher rate springs, but this didn't bother me.

Personally, I'm not looking for 1.0Gs or anything. .80 would be fine and in the ballpark with most 90s performance cars.