I have come across a 69 pontiac firebird,with rear springs that are made up of (6 blades) and would like to know if it Would be a: possible and b: a good idea ,
to replace my preasant (2 blade)springs with these.

Thank for the help.
cesare (69 camaro)

Yes, try the Firebird springs.
The springs you have have two leafs?
How thick are the leafs.?
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

yes david they are 2 blade springs,they measure 12mm and 9mm on their thickest section ,near the dif mounting perch.

by the way thanks for asking ,because I just noted that the mouning perch has cracked at the Weld Which holds it on to the side shaft housing . IM sure it wasnt like that When it hit the two poster some 4 months ago,but its sure there now clear as day,death waiting to happen.

On that reply of yours concerning jag shocks rate,What about using the Monroe sensortrack shock Which has veriable valving under high load conditions.It seems to work well on my friends cobra.
IM not being a smart *** just tying to learn as much as possible,so please feel free to say if you think any ideas are down right dumb.

Oh and is there any way you could give me some details on front springs to try and duplicate those 550 springs your friend is running ,tacking into to account I am running the guildstrand mod.

Thanks again.

CESARE,
You should have two "U" bolts over the housing. If you have only studs or "T" bolts that is why the housing perch is cracked. It would be good to weld a small brace piece of plate on the front and rear ends of the perch, from the perch to the housing.

On the Jag rear end. I'm under the impression that the Jag rear used two shocks per side.
If you were to use only one of these shocks on some other application, you would only have about half the shock rate of a stock jag.
This seems too low to me.
If you are using all four of the shocks then I guess it's O.K. I wasn't really shure what you were talking about as far as what car it was being used on or what suspension type or how many shocks were used.

The use of two leaf springs is not done here, Check on the width of the springs compared to the two leaf. And when you get them out try and compare the spring rate by placing weight on them while they are turned up side down.

You will need over 200 lbs per inch of deflection.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-12-2000).]

Thanks David .

I do see What you are getting at with the Jag suspension and its use of Two Shocks .
I'll definately leave it as a latter project,as I have yet to find any shock With a "resistance to rebound" ie: stiffness ,of the set of Konis i ran shortly before parking the 69.

Which is Why I asked for the details on those 550 springs of your, so I could avoid having to slip in my old springs and the guess work and calculations that follow to get the spring specs to get the car to sit right.

My solid Bushes are Turning out alright ,all be it a little slowly.I did not find the steel you sujected but Have made a plan with
EN 8 for the outer casings, and Phosphor bronze for the inner sleeve.

The lazer cut bracing on my modified upper Arm is all Welded in place and looking good.

Thanks again for your input
(your Web page is looking real good)

I just read your reply on "69 front springs "
after posting the above reply .

on those # = 6041 springs you ran on your 67
I take it the FREE HT you gave was that of the spring before you cut one coil off it.
Is this understanding correct?

What number of coils did the spring have With the specs you gave?

What number of coils did the spring have
when fitted to youre 67, and were you running the Guildstrand mod With them?

Please include how you count the coils ie:
including the two ends as one coil or just the number of full coils between the two ends

Forgive the stupid Question but :
What load does "LOAD = 2806" refer to and why is it so much greater than the "LOAD -LBS=1607" of the other spring.
I thought it referred to the load ,or weight on the front Wheels of the car but the extreme difference,does not seem to gel with this theory.

Thanks again for youre patience,
Cesare.

CESARE,
The specs are out of my Moog spring book.
the free height is the stock spring before cutting.

I cut one coil off at first, but cut an additional 3/4 of a coil off later.

The spring has 7.25 coils on it now.
I am counting complete coils starting at the stock end of the spring. Free height now is around 12.5"

The first coil of the stock end will bottom out when in the car.

I rated this spring on my home made spring checker but could not compress it very much due to only having an 800 lb guage on it.

I could only compress it a half inch and had to double the figure to get the 650 spring rate.
I was told this spring would be around 700 lbs when one coil was cut off, and it probably is close to that when compressed and the bottom stock end has bottomed out the first coil.
Calculations show it to be 700 to 735 lbs per inch.

This is a serious spring intended for a racing slick and cornering forces over 1 G.

It will be rough riding on the street.

The LOAD mentioned is from the book and is the car's weight multiplied by the leverage of the A frame.
This is the load the spring "sees"
The neat thing is that from the Camaro load data you now can use the 1607 lbs figure and apply it to any spring in the catalog and arrive at the loaded height of the new spring.

so the #6041 is 17.09" tall and 501 lbs per inch.
1607 / 501 = 3.207"
So- a #501 spring would compress 3.207" with a 1607 lb load on it.

17.09-3.207=13.883"
The spring will be 13.883" tall when in the car and the 1607lb load is on it.

You can see the car will be too high if the spring is not cut.
From here you could subtract the desired height of 10.75" (this is the stock spring height, you might want a lower height) and the result would be how much to cut off your spring.

The thing is, the spring will get stiffer due to cutting it shorter, so it will not compress as much as calculated.

In general, one inch less LOADED SPRING HEIGHT will lower the car about 1.4" measured frame to ground.

The adjuster I am going to use on top of my spring is a threaded tube like a Koni coil over only larger diamiter about 2.5".
There is a 5.5" plate welded to one end of the sleeve and a similar sized plate that is welded to a threaded ring. This threaded plate can be adjusted up and down like a coil over setup, and the shock has clearance to pass through the center of it like stock.

You could have a pair of these made easily and you would be able to adjust your ride height to whatever you want.
The top of the plate needs to fit into the stock spring perch, so I intend to weld either a complete coil cut off a stock spring, or three or four pieces of a coil.
These pieces will fit into the stock top perch, and I might drill a couple of holes in the frame to bolt it in too.

The instructions say to remove the adjuster to get at it. I will look into cutting a hole in the side of the frame to reach it for adjusting while in the car. It depends on how much pressure is on the plate when the car is jacked up.
If you are interested in this, I can post a photo.
Cesare, please, there is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to suspension!
Everything is important and must be understood completely, or you shouldn't be fooling with your car's suspension. It's very dangerous if you make a mistake.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David pictures would be great,Thanks.

E-mail address : bottero@iafrica.com

It yould seam unwise to copy your 67's springs as I am running 225/60 15" street rubber.

So If I ask my spring guy to make up the following spring Would I be on track?

SPRING RATE = 550 Lbs/inch
LOAD HEIGHT = 9.35 inch (to lower car by 2inch at frame)
FREE HT = LOAD HT +(1607/SPRING RATE)
= LOAD HT +(1607/550)
= 9.35 + (2.92)
FREE HT = 12.37 inch
SPRING ID = 3.675

Will the above info be enough for my spring guy to work out the spring wire diam ,and number of coils repuired?

Thanks for posting the pictures of the bent steering arm on your site .I have been Wracking my brain for a solution to that problem for quite some time now.

Thanks for the help,
Cesare.

CESARE,
I would run the figures by your spring guy to verify.
This would be very close.
Are you talking about MAKING a spring or cutting a stock type spring?

If MAKING a spring.
I would tell him to shoot for a rate between 550 and 600lbs and and not specify wire dia or spring ID.
The OD of the spring would ideally be around 5" but could go up to 5.25"OD with no problems.

If you want to use a spring adjuster like I suggested, you need the top of the spring made flat to fit the flat adjuster and the spring would need to be made 1" to 1.5" shorter to allow space for the adjuster (two 14" plates, and some adjustment room.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,
I was talking about having the springs made up from scratch by a spring company I have already delt with and who's work I like.
I am sure with the details you have given ,the guy will be able give me what I'm looking for.

As for those Photos on the spring adjuster I am still intrested. Where will you be posting them ?

You see I intend first getting the car on the road as soon as " safely" possible,and then at a later stage doing things like the Spring adjuster and subframe connectors,solid body mounts and so on.
I miss driving her REAL bad,and need to feel like I'm getting somewhere.

I relize the springs would need to be ground flat at the one end ,and shortened to fit the spring adjuster,but I should Be able to send the springs I Will be having made soon ,back to the spring manufacturer to have him cut and grind the one end flat,when I get around to making and fitting the adjuster.

Any way Even if I have to have new springs made for the spring adjuster,I have three people I know who are all just starting to rebuild their First gen Camaro's and will probably be needing springs.

One last Thing (I promise):
Any Idea where I can look for that article in "Car life january 1970",you have on youre Page?
I tried some 3 hours 42 minutes of looking through 100's of search resuilts on yahoo and only got one real Bad Head ache.

Thank you ,and enjoy the rest of your week end.
Cesare.

Cesare, That magazine is long out of business. I may be able to scan it and E-Mail it to you.

Here is a spring rate calculator I found on the web. http://users.icubed.com/~sknight/calculators/js_coil_spring_rate.html

also check out this shareware calculator. It seems to have everything! http://www.zdnet.com/downloads/stories/info/0,,0004ZG,.html
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-14-2000).]

David ,

That Would be REAL NICE, thanks .
(How you find time for all of us ,is amazing)The sites look real usefull too ,
as usual THANK YOU .

Have a good monday ,If thats possible.
Cesare.

David,

Have you ever thought about turning your coil spring adjuster upside down, and "clevising it off the lower A-arm with two pins???

The "clevis's would have to be parallel to the inner lower A-arm bolts and located on the centerline of the shock hole.

I bring this up because, to me, it would be easier to adjust the threaded spring "socket" from the bottom and not have to worry about locating the top of the shock. Does this make sense??? pdq67

Originally posted by pdq67

David,

Have you ever thought about turning your coil spring adjuster upside down, and "clevising it off the lower A-arm with two pins???

The "clevis's would have to be parallel to the inner lower A-arm bolts and located on the centerline of the shock hole.

I bring this up because, to me, it would be easier to adjust the threaded spring "socket" from the bottom and not have to worry about locating the top of the shock. Does this make
sense??? pdq67

What do you think???pdq67

pdq67,
I considered putting it in the lower A frame. Clearance from the shock body would be less, and you would probably have to pivot it like you say.
I think the Carrera coil over shock kit might work better in that case.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

You are right, I never thought of a Carrara coil over as being the modern counterpart of a weight jacking spring pocket.

It even includes the shock!!! Good point. pdq67

Cesare,
I don't remember if I told you that when you put the multi leaf springs in the multi leaf springs have a bolt that goes all the way through them and the single leaf do not.
I've never seen a spring like your two leaf, they might interchange easier than the single.
With the single you have to make up a plate with a hole in it and place it on top of the multi leaf spring, leave out all the rubber pads and using two "U" bolts on each side bolt it all together.

pdq67,
Carrera has a selection of spring rates and shock rates for their setup. They list Camaro but I'm not shure they make it for the first gen.
David

P.S. I'm going to SEMA in Las Vegas next week. I'll be looking for neat stuff and report back here.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-25-2000).]

David,
I just drilled a hole in my housing spring perches so the spring bolts head would locate right. Now that you mention it, the plate woulda been easier then being on my back drilling the holes. Plus my housing would still be totally stock.
Thanks for the tip!!! pdq67