: front disc brakes improvement question
Nov 21st, 03, 04:35 AM
i go on here on an evolution of my other topic.
About restoration of stock brakes i go on to improvement. Tough, i don't have the 1k$ for a bear front brake system including rotors and calipers. SO :
Could i install these calipers on my camaro?
Are there for 1" thick rotors?
i need to custom made a caliper, that is still doable isn't it?
i read people upgrade rotor and calipers (swap) with spare parts from recent corvettes or camaro's, but they do it from drum spindles. Would that work from disc spindles as well?
at which price do you think it is interesting to buy this used part?
would i be able to use my master cylinder?
i currently have 1 piston Delco morane calipers.
Nov 21st, 03, 04:38 AM
"i need to custom made a caliper braket, that is still doable isn't it? "
so i meant it ...
Nov 21st, 03, 05:31 AM
I read all the great info from David Pozzy page and http://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004393;p=2 and still wonder how to do the swap when starting from disc spindles.
Also what is a caliper basket?
Nov 21st, 03, 08:00 AM
i did the 12" C4 PBR caliper swap on the front of my Nova using disc spindles. same as drum spindles, but a spacer is needed on the top bolt instead of getting it milled down like the drum spindle.easy and worth it.
the "basket" is the bracket that holds the caliper onto the bracket that you have to make. you can buy all the "correct" PBR stuff new from GM or any parts store for a few hundred dollars- that's for the calipers, baskets, and rotors. pads can be kind of spendy, tho. i think i have $500 or so into my front brakes, and a bit of fabrication time.
Nov 21st, 03, 09:25 AM
If you are really going to go through with this swap-I would like to offer some advise:
1. Don't buy the calipers in that link. Too much money. You can get the PBR twin-piston style calipers which are nearly identical to the ones in that auction for much less. The PBR twin-piston calipers came on all '98 and forward Camaros, Trans-Ams, Firebirds, SS's, Z28's, and all Corvettes (with pretty "Corvette" cast into them) from 1997 until now. Also the exact same PBR calipers are used on Ford Mustangs from '98 until now! Do a search on E-Bay for "Mustang Calipers" or "Camaro Calipers" to find them at decent prices. You should be able to get them at $90 including shipping. That is an average that I have seen. I have a supplier in Houston that is selling them for $45 each with no core required but he has a limited supply. If anyone is interested in purchasing these calipers-contact me and I will see what I can arrange for you.
#2. Rotors: Since you are going through the trouble of making caliper brackets and using late model calipers I would recommend that you look into the 13" C5 rotors used on the '97 and forward 'Vettes. These rotors will require at least a 17" rim to clear (I have heard that some 16" wheels will clear but don't know which ones).
You can get both rotors brand new from after market suppliers for right at $100. More if you go with genuine GM. This is the ULTIMATE in stopping power!
#3. Spindles. You can use your current spindles as mentioned above with a spacer at the top mounting hole. I have also heard that you can also use the two bolts that hold the steering arm on the car, and avoid the spacer issue all together. What ever you do-DO NOT CUT OR MODIFY your existing disc spindles. If you find that you can't make them work, buy a cheap pair of drum spindles and use them and sell your disc spindles on E-bay. The disc spindles on E-Bay are going for $100+ for a pair-and you should be able to find the drum spindles for $30 or so..
#4. Hubs-Regardless of which spindle you use-you should be using drum brake hubs to try and maintain your track width. David Pozzi's site shows the difference between the disc and drum hub up close. I have a pair that I will part with if you can't find any. Save your original disc hubs or sell them on E-Bay for MONEY!
#5. Master Cylinder-If you go with the PBR style calipers you will need a master cylinder with a 15/16" bore. Do a search on this site as several people have posted part #'s, and model & year of car from which to find what you are needing.
Remember, going this route may require time scrounging for the right brake lines (length, fittings on the end), and also the purchase of different rims to work with the larger rotors and calipers. Otherwise, do a search for "CBB" on this site and read the posts that you find. A lot of people on this site are using the C4 Corvette brakes (either 12" or 13"). That appears to be a pretty popular swap but I don't know much about what all goes into it. Keep reading the past posts as all the information to do what you are wanting to do can be found on this site, along with the info on David Pozzi's site.
Good luck with your project!
Nov 21st, 03, 02:46 PM
The cheapest front conversion there is but it requires a custom homemade caliper bracket is my "pdqCBB" setup that uses 13", 1988 Vette front rotors, a van big single piston caliper, either a drum hub or a disc hub turned down to fit the rotor hat and a custom bracket!!
I went with the two piece disc hub less disc so that I would gain some rim to upper balljoint lip room due to running spindle extenders..
Almost forgot, either one of the spindles can be used by shimming the bolt bosses??
The way you do this is to mount the rotor and caliper and wedge the piston pad to the rotor so that the outside pad is tight AND parallel to it, then you measure for shims!!
I am running 17" Mustang "Bullitt" rims for clearance too by redrilling everything, then fitting 1/2" stud-bolts b/c I think they are about the coolest rims ta come down the pike in a looonnnggg time!! But jmho...
BTW, I made a set of brackets by hand carving them outta plates of 5/16" cold rolled, but a guy by the name of Brian was nice enough to make me a professional made set so that's what I have everything put together with now.. Brian did it to get my bracket template and I gave it to him for free to help others out if he wanted to sell brackets..
You can use a regular '69 caliper but you will need to take about .050" off each pad b/c the stock rotors are 1.0" thick vs the Vette's at 1.1" thick. The van caliper is 1.25" wide so I am going to shim the pads but I really wished I wouild have used 1.25" thick, 13" diameter rotors so I wouldn't need to do it. Only thing is that I bet they are heavy suckers!!!
I'm using plain old stock, '69 single piston caliper hoses too..
Do a search and all this stuff will turn up..
PS, I'm using 11.75", 1989 Camaro rear rotors along with custom caliper brackets to mount 1980 Cad. Seville e-brake calipers too..
Nov 24th, 03, 01:12 AM
Hi thanks for that great info !
i also read http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html
i called GM dealer in Belgium all parts are here available, but prices are rated oddly. 95 € for new 2003 corvette rotor each and 235 € for each 2003 corvette calipers !
But OK. I still can buy in America.
I would like to go with
- C4 rotors 12" JL9 Standard to be able to run 16" wheels. I prefer the look of 16" wheels.
- C5 PBR calipers new. 88$ each from gmpartdirect (RickD)
The thing is J55 13" rotors are 1.1" thick while 12" JL9 rotors are 0.9" thick so i guess it is impossible to run the new C5 PBR calipers on a old type JL9 rotor is it?
- about the master cylinder : i see Rick D uses all the component of a F-body car 97 - 00,
1993-97 F-Car Master Cylinder
1994-00 F-Car Power Brake Booster
1994-97 F-Car Brake Booster Valve Kit
that is for C4 calipers, front and a F body rear disc brake system.
this is 'normal' as he uses
Now it is also possible to run 1988 MANUAL S10 master cylinder – 15/16” bore.
my questions are :
* what if keep my rear drum brakes, for master cylinder? i guess these master cylinder are for a 4 wheel disc set up.
* The basket is what RickD call 'the mouting braket', is that correct?
* is there a possibility of using new C5 calipers (that i guess more powerfull than JL9) on a 12" rotor?
* the braket is different for the C5 caliper/13" rotor swap then for the C4 caliper/12 " rotor swap, isn't it?
* In case i can only use 13" rotor with C5 calipers, is there a wheel that would fit in 16" size? a wheel looking like a vintage wheel work or torq thrust 2, or cragar. that kind.
I am decided and want to do that project. So yes, go69, i am interested buy your old hubs, as i 'll need it anyway what ever my brake set up will be.
Thanks guys smile.gif
Nov 25th, 03, 07:50 AM
Contact me at: email@example.com and we can discuss the hubs.
Nov 26th, 03, 08:40 AM
if you use the PBR front calipers with the stock rear drums, the master cylinder to use is for a 77 Malibu with manual brakes- that is, if you want manual brakes. it has a 15/16" bore, and my Nova has the same brake feel with manual brakes as my beater 94 Caprice has with power 4 wheel discs. losing the booster on the firewall really opened up the engine bay, too. if you want to keep the power booster, i think a stock power disc master for your car will work fine.
other parts you will want to get are a drum/drum prop valve- which is really just a splitter and a way to activate the brake light if anything goes bad- and a Wilwood ($40 or so thru Summit or Jegs)or similar adjustable proportioning valve to control the pressure to the rear brakes. a set of stainless brake hoses to replace the rubber pieces on the car isn't a bad idea, either. Russel has a kit with all 3 hoses for your car for about $70. not a difficult or really expensive swap, but it does have a few special parts.
Nov 26th, 03, 11:05 PM
i might as well go for the C4 set up as wheels are very expensive! if i go with the 13" rotor C5 then i have to buy new wheels.
I have 15" rallys on now.
IS there a noticible brake power difference in C4 calipers vs C5 calipers ??
For you guys with manual disc brakes : isn't it too hard to push on the pedal ?
I have a mild 327 with firstname.lastname@example.org duration camshaft and i don't know what vacuum the engine makes. I already have to push on the brake even i have a power booster.
comments always appreciated.
Nov 29th, 03, 06:30 AM
hey guy please tell me more.....
I Stil need to make up my mind, you can help me...
Nov 29th, 03, 07:55 AM
CarlC used a kit by Stainless Steel Brakes, and I think the kit used thoe JL/9 rotors.
Carl's rotors were 12" but from an early C4 vette, I'm not sure if those are .9 width JL/9, or more narrow. Whatever they are, they are not as good as stock.
Nov 29th, 03, 10:15 AM
The C5 caliper is dimensionally the same as the LS1 and will work with the LS1 12" rotor and Tyler as well as Go69's LS1 bracket.
I'm not aware of a bracket yet for using the C5 13" rotor. The other bracket shown on David's website and offered by Rich Downing and Go69 uses either a C4 12" or 13" rotor and C4 caliper.
Nov 29th, 03, 05:47 PM
what rally wheels do you have now? i think i got lucky with my Z/28 wheels- i only had to grind a little tiny bit off the leading and trailing edges of the calipers to make it fit inside them. i sold my 15X7 mid 70's El Camino rally wheels before i had the kit together, so i don't know if they'd fit. every stock steel 15" wheel i've tried simply hasn't been close to fitting. if nothing else, go to www.baer.com (http://www.baer.com) and download one of their 12" PBR "track" kit templates, which uses the same parts as my swap.
Nov 30th, 03, 01:47 AM
Well ... So i can buy a 12" LS1 rotor, and C5 calipers and fit everything together !
And there is a bracket for that set up right?
the LS1 rotor is then thicker then the C4 corvette rotor, the LS1 is then in close to 1.1" thick.
And will it fit behind my 15" rally wheels? i think i have 15X7 on front. Look at my pics of my car... tires are 225/60r15 front. otherwise i could buy a set of 16" wheels. What backspacing?
Since my stock rotor are 11" and 1" thick isn't wouldn't i be able to put C5 calipers on them ? then i could reuse my wheels...
And about the caliper? would i go with the manual 77 malibu = manual disc brake on my car?
isn't it too hard manual brakes?
still some things to make clear ...
Dec 2nd, 03, 04:52 AM
here is what i wish :
- C5 calipers behind 15" wheels
I Hope i can do this with 12" rotors.
if i need 11" rotors then i 'll custom design the braket if it doesn't exist. I 've got a friend here that could do that with me.
and i hope i don't need to install a spacer to clear the calipers, because i like the stand of my car as is.
- keep my booster.
i read i need a 15/16 bore master cylinder, but can you tell me which one will certainly work? i want to keep my rear drums.
What thickness of rotors work with C5 calipers? What is the thickness of LS1 rotors?
Dec 2nd, 03, 06:40 AM
I know you are talking about using the PBR calipers, and I agree they are much lighter than the old four piston Corvette calipers, but the Corvette brakes (JL8 setup) gives you a 12" diameter rotor, four piston fixed calipers, and fits under stock rally wheels. There are downfalls. The piston and seal design are not the best, but if you keep fresh brake fluid in the system, that shouldn't be a problem. They are also harder to find, but there is a guy selling completely rebuilt, stainless steel sleeved Delco calipers for $87 each. Just another option that will give you the 12" rotor and allow you to use your 15" wheels. The bracket is also available from several sources.
Dec 2nd, 03, 07:34 AM
For the record-I have NO CALIPER BRACKETS! It looks like some of the replies are indicating that I have brackets-I do not! I asked for, and received some templates for brackets recently, but that is the extent of my involvement thus far.
I am ATTEMPTING to use '98 Camaro PBR calipers with a 13" C5 Corvette rotor. For this ATTEMPT I will be making my own bracket. If I am successful I will gladly share the dimensions of the brackets that I am using with anyone that cares for them.
This brake project is temporarily on hold though whilst I figure out how to turn my 4 cylinder engine back into an 8..
Dec 2nd, 03, 09:13 AM
I think I was one of the culprits who pointed to you, Go69 when it was 68_ss. Sorry.
Todd at Speedtech is coming up with some brackets for C5 calipers and C5 12" and 13" rotors.
Dec 2nd, 03, 02:39 PM
Brian on David's site will probably be happy to make you a set of the "pdqCBB" big single piston caliper brackets if you want to consider them..
He made mine after I gave him my template and I had already carved a rough set outta steel plate by hand..
PS., 13" 1988 Vette front rotors, big single piston calipers and either hubs and spindles depending on shim use!
13" rotors, brackets, big calipers AND two piece hubs and disc spindles are on my car!!
Dec 2nd, 03, 03:25 PM
Hi Marc I have been asked a few times about making a bracket to convert the factory drum hub to a C5 Caliper. I'm almost done and will have them ready soon. You can checkout my pics at;
C5 Brake Pics (http://www.speedtech-performance.com/C5%20brakes.php)
Dec 3rd, 03, 10:47 PM
BB69, about these jl8 brakes, i looked at CBB on david pozzy's page and i wonder if that brake set up is worth the work (braking power&performance) comared to my stock brakes. Are there really braking better?
Why should i change my rotors as the corvette ones are 11 3/4? should my 11" rotor not be suitable with the jl8 caliper? thickness difference is only 1/4". 11 1/4" = jl8, 1" = stock disc.
# about the C4 or C5 calipers on a 12" rotor, isn't there any possibility one of the two system (c4 or c5) fit behind a 15" raly wheel?
or any possibilities i could set a c4 or c5 caliper on my 11" rotor? (provided i make my own braket)
# is there any brake upgrade you think of that would only require caliper and braket change? so i would keep my rotor?
Please try to enlighten me on these points.