I would like to find out how many people would be interested in upper tubular control arms for first gen camaro's that have additional caster built in, powder coated colour of your choice (five to choose from), stainless steel cross shafts, delrin bushings, urethane bump stop and moog ball joint for $550.00 Canadian which converts to $400.00 US.

Thanks!

Dont know, gotta see them first.

But I am sure if of a sound design and workmanship, they will sell faster than you could probably produce them.

Well thanks chicane67. I have just received five sets of arms and I'm waiting for them to come back from the powder coaters and then they will be ready for assembly. It took awhile to come up with shafts that I like. I drove the machinest nuts. He CNC'd 5 protoypes for me.

I'm hoping to have them ready by the end of next week.

Get close up, high resolution pictures of a set of arms before they get power coated. You are going to need these to be able to sell them to the more peticular customers.

And to cover your ass and his, you should make up a disclaimer and include a product information sheet to ship with your product.

Thanks Chicane67. I have taken photo's of each part prior to assembly but not raw. What would be the reason for high res photo's prior to powder coating. I personally don't mind I'm just curious. As for your other comments, I have liability insurance and have included a disclaimer and detailed instructions of how to install them. I'm in the process of creaing my own web site which will show the arms and all parts individually.

Thanks again!

Mountie,
I have a few questions. How much caster is baked in, and is it adjustable (besides with normal shims)? Is the overall length from bushinh centerline to ball joint the same?

Ken

What is the material used in the arm tubing Mountie?

Two sets of arms were made using two types of tubing.

#1 Chrome moly tubing

#2 DOM drawn over mandrel 1.25 OD

It would be a good idea to provide these photos on a web page or to post them here on TC. It will satisfy the curiosity of those more experienced with fabrication/racing this chassis and it can/would be a great advertisment for your product. It really has to do with workmanship issues. Not that I dont trust you, the design or the gentleman performing the actual welding or assembly, but I have seen it all concerning every other attempt made so far (Fatman, Hotchkis, Guldstrand and many more) and need to screwtinize a given product until I am satisified with what I see or experience. I will state this because most will not.

There is a good reason why there are only two control arms for the 1st Gen that are actually being used.

And you have definately peaked our collective interest, thats for sure. I'd be interested in a DOM set.......

Well chicane67 here is a link to a single page to view the arms as they are. They do not have the bushings or shafts in yet. I will have that done at the end of the week. Also as the page indicates the plates will be laser cut.

http://members.shaw.ca/toddbalaban/

Nice lookin parts so far Todd.

Can you provide any geometery diagrams? And, can you TIG a set or two out of DOM?

Well chicane67 I have five completed sets out of the DOM 1.25 OD as it is thicker wall and I feel it is a stronger arm. The only down side I see from this is that these arms are only 3 ounces lighter that the stock so it is not to much of a weight savings but it is very strong. It will look a lot better with the Stainless steel cross shafts and the alum bushings that are lined with delrin.

In case you don't know Delrin is a very hard type of like plastic product but is self lubricating. Delrin or Filled Acetals have better wear (up to 5X's better,) have increased self-lubrication, and have lower coefficient of friction

I should also mention that the bushings are greasable with zerk fittings.

Take it easy!

Weight is not an issue. Strength and geometry are.....

Can or will you TIG weld a set made of DOM? I would be very interested in a set of this nature. I would also perfer them to be bare and un-painted/un-coated if that wouldnt be a problem.

Yes, I am very familiar with Delrin and its derivitives. Is the bushing encapsulated on the ends? Have you run into any coldflux problems with the Delrin material if they are not encapsulated? How much roadtime do you have on any given set of these?

Chicane67 you have a lot of detailed questions which I would be happy to answer for you but why don't you Email me at toddsmith33@hotmail.com.

But to answer your immeadiate questions. I have Delrin washers on either end then grade eight thrust washers finaly stover nuts to tie it all together. We have ran the bearing continuosly for several hundred hours with no signs of wear.

I again will be willing to provide more detail when my site is up or again you can Email me.

Finally I would be happy to provide you the arms un-coated but bead blasted, however as it is metal I could not be responsable for any surface rust during shipping so if that is not an issue that would be fine.

Thanks for all your questions!

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

mountie, i am interested in a set of upper control arms, i am not sure which i would want though!!! anyway what colors are you going to offer them in?? also is that 400 including shipping, and if not what do you expect the shipping to be, thanks
jake

Me too Mountie. As a fabrication idiot I'll look forward to some feedback.

well guys the $550.00 US converted to about $400.00 Canadian does not include shipping but I have talked to UPS and will be setting up an account. I was provided a price to any of the 48 Stated for $25.00 dollars Canadian.

When I have my site completed it will provide a lot more information.

So hang on guys and thanks it was a rather big investment for me to do this but my two main goals were quality of the product but yet keep the cost down.

I'm hoping to have 7 products initially when I start my site.

One more product I don't mind telling is I'm waiting for two sets of inter locking Billet Alum body bushings made from T6061 T6 that will come supplied with all grade 8 bolts and washers and the bushings will be available in either Black, Blue, Sliver or gold anodizing for a very reasonable price.

Thanks!

Sorry BBCamaro I failed to answer you question on colour.

The way it will work is black will be kept in stock for immediate shipping but the other colours will be between one to two weeks delay and the colours we will offer are as follows;

Black, blue, red and yellow. We can do others but what I have done is provided paint samples of the facotry colours to try and have closely matched in powder coat. But don't be miss understood it will not be exactly the same just close.

I hope this clarifies things.

Take it easy!

Mountie,
I looked on your page and the photos took a very, very long time to download. I'm on a dialup modem, but still took longer than any page I have opened in quite a while. It was something like 5 to 10 minutes! I went for a snack break, came back, and it was still loading...

My suggestion is, please divide up the photos on separate pages and put just a menu on the main page with limited graphics.

That will allow loading the main page quickly, and the desired photos can be viewed by clicking on separate pages.

If you put your description text at the top of the separate pages, the text can be read while the photos are loading. It will make the wait seem smaller. Just don't put a lot of large photos on one page.
David

Thanks David, that was something I did quickly and I'm in the process of doing a proper Web site. But I will change it soon.

Thanks!

Mountie,
The body mount bushings sound good too. Let us know when you're ready to show these off.

Ken

HI your upper tubular control arms look grate but look at these site
http://www.heidts.com/heip40.htm
and fatman fab has them for $329
i just had too tell you sorry

Yeah I wa aware of them but the differance is my arms will have Stainless steel cross shafts with alum inserts to offer further adjustment instead of the Moog K2520 ypu see and instead of urethane bushings mine are made of aluminum with Delrin sleeves. So there is a differance.

but thanks for the heads up!

OK, does anybody know if anybody is making these so that you get a more correct length shorter upper A-arm for running either the taller B-cast spindles or the Pro-Motorsports taller spindle extenders b/c I would definately look into getting a set of uppers for my car in a heart-beat!!! pdq67

The Heidt arms do not have additional caster built into them...Mounties do. At $425 you'll have a corner on that market in no time. The next affordable ones like yours are the Global West arms at $600.

WellBB67 here is a link to my body mounts but understand there not anodized yet and I didn't take a picture of them with the hardware.

http://publish.shaw.ca/toddsmith33/

Mountie,
I tried the link, but it was unavailable.

Ken

Thanks BB69. It works for me but I will look at chaning it.

Nope, that page is broke.

Not trying to be confrontational. Just trying to get some facts straight.When I open the link that is supposed to be a picture of the arms, I get body mounts. Then I see in one post you say $400 US and $550 Canadian. Then in another post yI see $550 US and $400 Caadian. Am I missing something or misreading?

tongue.gif

Well I'm sorry guys for the broken link. I've been working 18 hour days and when I went to upload the pics of the body mounts I uploaded to the wrong address and overwrote thecontrol arms page. I will be off this weekend and look at correcting it. As for the cost again over tired.

The cost is $550.00 Canadain which converts to just over $400.00 US plus shipping which I have estimated anywhere in the sates to be about $25.00 dollars.

I will have a proper web site then. I'm truly surprised by the interst sparked and as such I have not had time to respond to even have of the emails not to mention the posts. So if you guys can hang on until Aug 1 I will have a completed proper web site hopefully answering all your questions. The site will have product info, cost and detailed photo's.

Hey chicane67. You said there were only two kinds of control arms being used.I'm thinking about getting a set, so I,m curious as to which ones they are. Thanks

Detroit Speed and Engineering ( DSE (http://www.detroitspeed.com/) ) and the other is Global West ( GW (http://www.globalwest.net/Camaro%20and%20Firebird%201967%20through%201981%20 suspension%20parts.htm) ).

DSE gets about $700.00 and GW gets about $600.00 for their respective control arms. You can get the GW arms cheaper as they have the option to run poly type control arm bushings, for those who want to run poly.

Kinda of interesting that these "New" arms look alot like the GW parts. With the exception of the four lightening holes in the gusset plate, they are pretty much identical.

At $425.00 shipped to the US, I doubt the supply will ever meet the demand. Its a smokin deal.

Dumb question here....

How would these tubular arms be better than the stock arms? Do they "build in" the guildstrand mod type stuff or ???

The biggest gain is in the strength of the arm itself. Next would be that the geometry can be effectively modified to improve upon the 35 year old technology.

The Guldstrand modification is an arm location point change, which changes multiple things at once- camber curve, castor inclination and its curve, the front roll center height and the characteristics of bump steer. Which effectively changes the moment length (CG height) in the front roll couple distribution and it also has a slight effect on changing the anti-dive geometry.

The control arms usually, only change a couple of things at once. If the overall arm length stays the same- castor inclination and its curve, which has an effect on the characteristics of bumpsteer. This is a seperate function alltogether from that of the Guldstrand modification.

How it does this is by changing the control arm tube lengths. If you were to make the rear control arm tube shorter (most common arm modification), it effectively changes the castor curve. If you change the lengths of both arms on one direction at the same time, you effectively change the camber curve.

When you make a change to one element, it effects another. So, there is a fine line on what you can do before you create a negative effect on the overall geometry.

Thats the tricky part, that only a few have been able to develop and use constructively.

Thanks!!

I have a bunch of the GW suspension goodies on my car(del alum bushings, cross shafts, coil springs, sway bar, rear leafs) and the stock upper and lower control arms. Would these upper arms make my car handle better, different or ???

In a simple answer, yes.

OK....If you say so, I believe it!!

Hmmmm.....Maybe that will be the next thing on the wish list!

Let me also include information that pertains to the Guldstrand Mod and the use of aftermarket control arms.

It has been stated best by Doug Norrin of GW that:

The Guldstrand modification can be used with our upper control arm. As you know the Guldstrand modification changes the front roll center. It also effects anti-dive, and the camber curve. (It is not negative roll). It will slow the positive camber down. Installing our tubular upper arm does not change the roll center or anti drive. It does change the camber curve, toe curve, and caster settings. Using both together will work, however it is not necessary for street application. If the client is racing the car, I can see doing the modification. I say this because the upper control arms do so much. The arms change how the car handles dramatically. In fact it is as close to a negative roll system as it gets without being a negative roll system. No! it does not generate a negative camber curve during roll, nor will it with the Guldstrand mod but the suspension using our arms will generate a substantial amount of negative camber on initial. (The beauty of caster and inclination angles). The combination allows the tire to lean into the turn (like negative roll) even though it pushes positive. As a result the tire stays flatter on the pavement.

So to answer the question,.
For the street guy who is not going to race the car (road racing). I would not do the modification. For drag racing the mod will have no effect. I would not do the modification. Just run the control arms. If I was road racing I would do the modification. If the guy on the street insists on drilling new holes, (fine) still not a problem.
This has also been stated by Kyle Tucker of DSE that:

Yes, you can use our tubular upper control arms with the Guldstrand relocated points. The Guldstrand template improves geometry compared to stock; it raises roll center, adds positive caster, and helps roll camber control. Our tubular upper control arms will work in the stock mounting location, or with re-located upper control points. We will also provide a template to relocate the points. Mr. Guldstrand's modifications are definitely in the right direction. With the addition of our upper control arm, we can add more improvements by changing control arm length, offset, and adjustability.
This pretty much sums it up.

I know being a little slow in the head here ,but let me get this straight.Unless you do the Guldstrand mod. there's no real handling improvment?

Not nessarly. It is recommended that a geometry change will help you out. But, you dont have to make the geometry change to make a difference,

TTT!!

Again,

"OK, does anybody know if anybody is making these so that you get a more correct length shorter upper A-arm for running either the taller B-cast spindles or the Pro-Motorsports taller spindle extenders b/c I would definately look into getting a set of uppers for my car in a heart-beat!!!"

Mountie, can you do it for my '67??

pdq67

The only one making shorter tube arms are 'FatMan' and what you can get out of 'LeftHander Chassis'. They both offer a shorter arm and the LeftHander Chassis arm is using the type of castor adjustments that DSE is.

More of a headache from my perspective.....so are the spindle extenders as long as you dont really abuse it too often.

pdq67,
I've got a friend who has the PM spacers on his Camaro. Next time I see him, I'll ask how they aligned.
I have to say from what I have learned lately, the Guldstrand mod is the most severe lowering of the bunch, DSE is not as low, late Vettes are less than DSE.
Although I haven't run it on suspension analyzer, the Pro-Motorsports spacer accomplishes more than double the lowering of the Guldstrand mod! :eek:
It's rasing the outer end of the A frame, instead of lowering the inner but it does the same thing.
David

[ 07-13-2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

Doesn't the shorter Arms prevent you from running an adequate sway bar or in most cases, any sway bar period?

david, does the lowering effect of the guldstrand cause any problem with clearence if you already have 2 inch drop springs??? and those other spacers which way would you go, i am planning on doing tubuler upper arm, and coil overs eventually, thanks
jake

You SHOULD not use the spacers with any other mod, ie no arms- no Guldstrand mod. The spacers change the geometry the most out of all modifications available and if you stack two of them together, with the exception of the Guldstrand mod and the GW or DSE control arms, it will effect the geometry in a negative way.

The lowering effect of the Guldstrand mod only changes the control arm height of the upper control arm and it has nothing to do with changing ride height. In fact, with the Guldstrand mod and a set of tube control arm from GW or DSE it will actually help you out by changing the suspension by not having a positive going camber producing geometry. It will pull the top of the tire in under suspension compression which will help the tire clear the fender with a lowered ride height.

Well guys it has been a long process since my initial post about the control arms and I'm now ready so check out my site at www.speedtech-performance.com (http://www.speedtech-performance.com) and let me know what you think.

Thanks


Todd!

Mountie,
Very nice parts! graemlins/beers.gif

Thanks David. I'm trying but boy does it take awhile from start to finish.

Todd

Im looking to get some tubular upper and lower control arms for my 67. I was going to buy the Global West Control arms, and the coil over setup. Then i came across the Heidt's control arms for much cheaper... And now i fell upon your site, and wonder which ones i should get... i do like yours, but i would need the lower control arms also, and i was trying to rebuild the front end asap. When are your lower arms going to be ready? And what advantage do your control arms have over the Heidt's arms?

Well 67RS427 the best solution would be for you to Email me at sale@speedtech-performance.com where I will gladly answer your questions for you. As for the lowers they will not be ready until the begining of October at the earliest.

Thanks

Todd!

Nice site. I can appreciate all the hard work you've put in.

Todd, site looks great!
Do you have an eta for the offset spring shackles? graemlins/hurray.gif

Thanks for the comments on the site. As for the offset shackles I'm hoping to have them ready by October 1st. We had a pair made up and test fitted them on the car. Since then we have changed a few things and I'm having another set made for a final test fit.

If you go to my site and add yourself to my mailing list I'm trying to keep people updated by that.

Thanks

Todd!

i tryed to email you, but i kept getting failed delivery messages... anyways, all i really wanted to know is, what exactly are the advantages over the other kinds of control arms
offered like global west, and heidts? What all is included in your package, and what coil over setup is
recomended for your control arms?

Mountie -

I just visited your web site. Very nice upper arm.

I look forward to purchasing uppers and lowers from you in the future. (Just as soon as I'm done smarting from the Corbeau seat purchase. Ouch.)

Congrats to you, your products and new venture.
graemlins/hurray.gif

Scoop thanks for the comments and 67RS427 I sent you an Email answering your questions.

Thanks!

Looking good!

Mountie,

The A-arms look great!

How many degrees of positive caster do you have built into your upper A-arms?

Thanks
John

up

Good question John.

Anyone?

Sorry for the delayed response I have been very busy with the business and working on prototypes.

The Arms have 6 degrees of caster built in and as for the offset shackles they are now ready and you can get them either anodized in three colours or hard anodized in natural all the same cost.

I have started receiving feedback from people who have already purchased them. You can see what they said at;
http://www.speedtech-performance.com/Customer%20Comments.htm

Thanks again

Todd

"This just gets better and better all the time"....