Just finished doing a Guldstrand mod on the upper A-arms mounts and also put new PST bushings, ball joints, 1 1/8" sway bar and Eibach springs. My problem is the car sits about 3" higher than it use to http://www.camaros.net/forum/redface.gif Should I trim the springs or go with 2" dropped spindles? Does going with the dropped spindles improve any steering geometries?

Thanks for all the help!


------------------
Bhret
San Jose, CA
67 RS/SS w/377 stroker

Hi Bhret
What is the spring rate of the new springs?

When you lower the car back down what distance will there be from the bump stops to the frame?

If there was adequate room from the bump stop before I wouldnt' spend the money for a drop spindle.
I don't think they fix any bumpsteer problems. AND if you go to the cast iron drop spindle, you won't be able to bend the steering arm to fix any bump steer problems.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the spring be trimmed until the lower A-arm sets level with the ground regardless of ride height??

Then, once it's level you can trim somemore to adjust ride height, or am I missing something here?? pdq67

Dave,

Eibach does not disclose the spring rate. Here is a clip off there web site when asked that question:

"Only simple linear springs have a spring rate. A sophisticated progressive Eibach Pro-Kit spring has a load/deflection characteristic. The special design parameters are only accessable through Eibach Desk-Tech Database to Eibach’s exclusive partners."

After closer examination, I have exactly 3 and 3/4" inch from top of tire to inner edge of wheel well. This is based on a Euro T/A 205-50R-15. The spring is really stiff compared to the old springs. I can deflect the front end with my 210lbs only 1/2" were as before I could bounce a good 2". I have exactly 3" to the lower bump stop. The A-arm sits fairly level right now. Perhaps I should consider going to a larger rim and tire and filling the extra space that way. One other observation, when installing the springs and trying to line up the end of the spring with the detent in the upper spring cup it ended up missing the detent by 1/2 a coil when the lower end was seated properly.

After looking at this closer I agree with you, the dropped spindles would be too much. I think trimming the 1/2 coil to seat the spring properly and perhaps a larger tire and rim would work great!

Thanks for the help!... again!



------------------
Bhret
San Jose, CA
67 RS/SS w/377 stroker

pdq,
On a properly designed suspension the lower A frame would be level.
Of course, the firstgen Camaro is far from that!
You know, the first gen was origonally designed around a smaller tire than what they eventually came with! Like 13" rims instead of the 14's and 15's.

But in the "real" world you have to do what works. And time, money and knowledge will affect what you wind up doing.

You can drop the front end by trimming the coils. Make sure to cut the non progressive end.
I'd like to see around an inch and a half clearance between the bump stop and frame.
If you get so low you can't maintain close to an inch of clearance then think about a drop spindle.
I have a friend who is nearly bottomed out on the stops but if he drove the car more than he does, he'd get tired of scraping the headers on every manhole cover around!

We took his car to Pleasanton last year and there are some big dips just south of Pleasanton on hwy 680, he flattened the bottom of a couple of header tubes.
The next thing to hit will be his lakewood bell housing as it's very low too.
David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Bhret, you didn't install the swaybar upside down by any chance did you? I don't want to come across as calling you stupid or anything, just something that has happened before. An upside down swaybar can hold the suspension up in the air like you're describing. Something to double check is all.....

Bret,

Thanks for the concern, I checked and its right. I'm so used to the slammed look with old fatigued springs and low profile tires that it looks a little strange. It definatly needs to be lowered about 1". If I trim a 1/2 coil and also change tire size I should be right there!


------------------
Bhret
San Jose, CA
67 RS/SS w/377 stroker

We had a big discussion on swaybars and the angles of the end links.
You might search the archives and see if you can find it.
Basicaly the end of the bar should be level and if you lower the car a lot you should shorten the end links to suit.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

You mention cutting the non-progressive end. On first gen's I believe the lower end of the spring needs to remain uncut so that it fits properly in the A-arm. Is the non-progressive end of the spring the top or bottom?

Also, is there a performance difference between a linear and progressive that a first gen suspension can take advantage of?

Thanks.

Carl

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Yeah David, I remember seeing the discussion and applied what I learned. The end links did sit a little high so I trimmed the spacer tubes down about 3/8" Now they sit fairly level. The 1 1/8" PST solid sway is very stout. Heavy too!. I pick up alot of information from Team Camaro website http://www.camaros.net/forum/cool.gif

Thanks for bringing this up! I know, you know, what I'm going through http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif



------------------
Bhret
San Jose, CA
67 RS/SS w/377 stroker

Carl,

Eibach only has one application for the 1st gen Camaros. P/N 3848.120 for small block. The call it Eibach Pro-Kit Progressive rate springs but the springs I believe are not progressive rate. Generally progressive rates are wound closer together towards the top of the spring but these have equally spaced coils throughout. I don't know what Eibachs marketing strategy is but I hope there products turn out better then there support! I have'nt got her out for a test drive yet but I'll let you all know how she handles as soon as I do!

------------------
Bhret
San Jose, CA
67 RS/SS w/377 stroker

i had the same problem when i re-did my 68 bb. took about 2 hrs and a series of trial and error spring cutting to get it down from about a gap of 3.5 inches between the tire and the wheelwell to about 1 inch where it currently sits. i think i ended up taking about a full coil off each side before it sat like it does now. take a look.

front view (http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1401076&a=10467510&p=35497347)

also had to to the sway bar compensation by cutting the spacers like you described.

adios,
john

actually, i lied. it sits even lower now because i went back and took some additional height out of the springs. oh, its got a mean rake to it now...

john

The other way to make a progressive rate spring is to make the wire tapered.

If someone has an Eibach spring that they could send me for a couple of days I could rate it and send it right back.
Maybe we'd all learn something!

John,
I see you have a tall double bail master cyl.
Is that stock for a 68?
I'm trying to figure some of that stuff out.
I like those wheels!
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-29-2000).]

BhretG,

I am real curious to know how you have made out. I am installing the same parts as you in my 68 (excellent Christmas). Unfortunately, I will be unable to see my ride height as I am currently w/o motor or tranny.
I would like to know how much you ended up cutting off of the Eibach Springs and what clearance you achieved.

Any possibility of posting a pi of the final results?

Kevin

No, not a "Pi"; a pic. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

------------------
68 Camaro SS - In Resto

David,

Sorry if I keep calling you "Dave". I'm waiting for my new motor and I will be popping the springs out to trim them. I would not mind bringing them down to Salinas if we can check thenm on the spot. I'd like to bring them back with me so I can put them back in. I to, would like to know what the rate is for reference.

Kevin,

I'll definatly keep you posted I have'nt had a chance to drive the car yet. I still have the old motor in it so I can get a good idea of the stance. I'm recharging the battery for my digi cam so I will E-mail you some pics later this afternoon.


------------------
Bhret
San Jose, CA
67 RS/SS w/377 stroker

david,

a double bail is actually stock for a 69 camaro, its just that the orig. master i pulled off the thing was pretty well spent and i didnt want to pay the $100+ to get the original rebuilt. i hear they demand alot, the 68 disk brake master cylinders, however my pep boys deluxe works and looks just fine for $20.

john

oh david, if you are looking for an orig 68 master, i believe i know where you could find one lying around http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

I taliked to Eibach on friday asking about a coil to drop the front of my 69 about 1 in. they said they have a spring at a 500lb rate but they are going to re-do it up to 600 lb he said they had cpmplaints about the spring rate.

Bhret,
I checked my spring checker and I can go to 1000 lbs on it and up to 17" spring height.

It's a home made deal that only cost me for the guage - twice. I lent it out and it got over pressured and they blew the first guage. It was too low anyway!

you can buy a plastic spacer to raise the car back up and save the cost of a new spring.

A friend of mine tried one but he put the cut end of the spring on it and split it in two.
I'd warned him to put it under the non cut end.

Bhret, if you still want to check the rate I might be able to meet you half way in Gilroy for lunch, send me an E-Mail if you are up for it.

Carl,
I kinda like the idea of a rising rate spring. I haven't fooled with one. I did some "consulting" a long time ago for a friend who had a forumla Atlantic with rising rate rocker arm suspension. What a headache!

I don't think I did him much good as I didn't have any experience tuning that type suspension.

What I did learn was the rising rate creates a stiffness in the front suspension on corner entry and makes the car push or understeer at that point. The driving style needs to change to make it work in an Atlantic car.

It seems like it would be a neat thing for a Camaro on the street but I'm not sure. It would probably cause some problems and fix some others.
I just ordered a pair of Hyperco 5" OD front springs to fit with my "hidden" adjusters. Should be here soon.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Inside tip-

DO NOT CUT ANY EIBACH SPRING!!!!! If it is a progressive spring do not even think about it. If it is a linear spring, feel free but take your time by cutting about an inch at a time. You can always take out, but you can never add.
Tech questions call Jason at 800-222-8811. He is someone at Eibach that has their brain turned on.

Tom

David-

Hey on the brake master, I have been using the four wheel disk brake master from a 78' Trans am (WS6). It is a power master, yet I use it as a manual. It also is a dual bail. I love the modulation and the pedal feel. It actually gives you enough feed back through the pedal.

Tom

Tom,
That's good news. Is it an 1 1/8" bore?
Is it a cast iron master cyl?

I think the larger OD rotors you have gives good braking at a lower line pressure. Your calipers may have bigger pistons than stock too. Do you have the Baer/Alcon calipers or the PBR?
I doubt you could brake as easily with the stock 11" rotors.

Make shure the master you have has a deep socket where the pushrod goes. Many power masters have a shallow socket and you would have to shorten the pushrod to fit it, there is a danger of the manual pushrod falling out of the shallow master!
It would probably take a little more than normal free play of the brake pedal to do it.
Or a master slow to return on the upstroke.

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

What was your final decison on the Hyperco's?

I've been toying around with using a 9 1/2" long, 5" diameter, closed/open, 600#/in spring using a set of Landrum adjusters. Joseph has this setup using a Landrum spring. I'd like to use the Hyperco's. With A/C, P/S, P/B, iron heads, etc. the car is no lightweight.

Carl

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

I cut my big block springs, I don't remember how much I cut out but it was too low, so I put one of those rubber spacers under the spring, I might put another one between the coils because the car is almost too low. The front spoiler is 4 1/2" off the ground and scrapes everytime I pull in and out of the garage, but I like the low look and spoilers are pretty cheap.

------------------
68 468 700R4, and here it is;
mutert23 (http://home.earthlink.net/~mutert23/)

Tom,
Please come back on Davids questions about the master cylinder pushrod and hole depth because I'm gonna try to run one too. I think I have it figured out how to keep the pushrod from falling out if the piston hangs up anytime if you are interested. pdq67.

The master is a 1 1/8 dia., cast iron. I used it first with the stock four-piston set up and it worked perfect.
Now with the new set up, 13" w/PBR calipers it also works well. Although, (this is a mortal sin) I am thinking of changing to the Mopar performance composite master with the same bore, (its just a lot lighter). I am pretty anal about weight, and being an engineer doesnt help. (now, anal retentive) LOL. But, weight is everything.....

Thx, Tom, pdq67

pdq,
you could most likely drill it a little deeper to make it work.
Most any master for manual use should have a deep enough hole to keep the rod from falling out. Or else we'd be hearing about it!

The deep hole probably has less wear on the bore too, as the pedal moves through an arc it will push to one side at some point in it's arc.
The brake booster type is a straight push so they make most of the masters for a short pushrod.
But, there are deep hole masters used on some power brake setups.
I'm going to be looking at going with manual brakes on mine but I don't like a hard pedal. Power brakes have me spoiled.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer