long time reader, first time poster. i am looking to do both the front and rear C4 conversions soon for my 69.
my question is for the rear, i am running a ford 9 inch with the small outer bearing. can you put the C4 rear discs(or 93-97 camaro)on this housing? i see that torker has ford housing ends and is using these brackets from gmpartdirect ...
will these brackets work on the rear i'm running?
thanks for any info on this... by the way, this is absolutely a great site !
Jan 23rd, 03, 09:31 AM
ford sells a complete rear disc kit that will bolt onto that 9" rear, and it is cheap- like $350 or something as of a year ago. it is the factroy setup off the newer Exploders. 12" rotors, i think, but a puny looking aluminum caliper.
1971 Nova(looks like 69 camaro from underneath!)
355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16X8" IROC wheels. 12" Corvette brakes on the way.
see dirty pics here of a car that gets driven http://community.webshots.com/user/novaderrik
Jan 23rd, 03, 10:38 AM
thanks for the response novaderrik, i've read up some on those explorer conversions. i like the look of the C4/93-7 camaro rear set up better, especially the calipers. i hadnt thought to use the C4/camaro set up until i saw that torker is running ford housing ends. maybe torker can chime in here or is there anybody else running this set up ?
thanks again for any info....
1. Another member, CarlC, has ford rear disk stuff and its terrible. - He is switching to the rear C4 disks.
Also the new ford disk brakes are made for the 8.8" rear not the 9"
2. It will cost less than $500 for the rear C4 set up. If you plan on installing the front C4 brakes you might as well have the matching rears, the C4 rears work very well as does its parking brake mechanism. If you shop around for parts for both the front and rear swap will run about $1000 for parts.
3. There are a couple of thing regarding your rear end that you have to measure. The first is the axle flange offset. This is the distance from the front face of the rear end housing flange to front face of your axle flange. Stock 12 and 10 bolts as well as 93-97 cars all share the same 2.91" measurement. So assuming your 9" was built with a stock chevy camaro offset you should be fine. The second is the bolt pattern on the housing flange. If you are running stock drums right now and did not have to redrill the bolt holes in the stock backing plates then you have the correct stock bolt pattern.
4. You will need to have your exiting axle bearings removed to install the gm brackets and then new bearings pressed back on. This is necessary since the new gm bracket also doubles as your axle retention devise. Also - are you sure you have a "small" bearing rear? I think all aftermarket swaps have the big bearing. How much smaller is the "small" bearing? I ask because you will have to make sure the hole in the gm brackets is small enough to cover and "retain" your small bearing.
5. Assuming you have staggered shocks (you have a 69 right?) you will need to use RH brackets and calipers for both sides to avoid interfering with the shocks.
See my ride:
Jan 23rd, 03, 03:30 PM
kip has a old ford 9 inch in his camaro, i think out of a mustang but i am unsure, but he has the smaller bearing on the axle , so will that work or would he have to weld on the bigger bearing axle flange, for this swap to work?? i have a 9 inch out of a 70 bronco that is 1/4 inch shorter than my 10 bolt so it fits perfect, 1/8 inch shorter per side, anyway i have the smaller bearings with 28 spline, can we make this work with them??? or do we have to upgrade to the bigger bearing housing end?
also if so do they make the bigger bearing for the smaller diameter 28 spline axle shaft, thanks for all your help
also tomorrow i will call napa and find out the differnce in size from the bigger to smaller bearing, i know the bigger will easily slip onto the smaller bearing axle, but i will find out exact difference so we can see if it will work,
how big is the hole in the brackets???i have my axles out of my camaro and they have the smaller bearings i will just mic those and let you know the diameter, you must know the bigger bearing size, thanks so much
[This message has been edited by BBCamaro (edited 01-23-2003).]
Jan 23rd, 03, 06:57 PM
You will need to measure the housing flange to axle flange as I described above to see how close you are to 2.91". You can be off a little (the caliper moves) but not by too much. The overall width of the axle will not matter. You will pick up an additional 1/4" of total track width when the swap is complete. Additionally you will need to check your bolt pattern as I described above.
As for the diameter of the bracket, I don't have the measurement and they are already on the car. I know CarlC hasn't installed his yet so I will get the diameter from him and post it if he doesn't see this first.
See my ride:
Jan 23rd, 03, 07:50 PM
torker, i used stock ford drums on back so i do not know if the 4 bolt flange is right or not?? also when measuring measure from flange face to axle shaft face(where rim seats when bolted on) ?? thanks for all the help
Jan 23rd, 03, 09:10 PM
OK, when I post the bracket diameter I will also post the bolt hole spacing. It might be a day or two before I can do so. And yes its the front face of the axle flange where the wheel bolts to.
See my ride:
Jan 24th, 03, 03:49 AM
thanks for the information. i had heard some mixed reviews on the ford rear brake stuff. i am pretty much set on using the C4/93-7 camaro set up. that is if my current rear will accept it. i will measure everything up this weekend.
i really forget the dimensions of small vs. large bearings, the rears have been under my cars for about 8-10 years now...
i am currently running stock ford drums and did not have to re-drill my ford backing plates. (did you mean if i'm running chevy brakes?)
i'm sure i have the small bearing rear, its not from a major company. a local rear end guy made both my 9" up for me. it was a "tight budget" deal, so i went with 28 spline, small bearing setup. he did them for me very cheap and mentioned the extra price of goin large bearing/31 spline aftermarket axles...
so do both you and carlc have the large bearing ford housing ends ? if the brackets only work with the large bearing ends, i could always weld those on. I wonder if the bolt spacing on the housing end is different between large and small bearings? i think they may be the same. if you could provide the bolt spacing and diameter of the bracket youre running, that would be great....
for the fronts i am debating between C4/C5 right now. i will be goin with the 12 inch rotors as space is very tight on my front end. i dont think i can run 17 inch rims up front. the car is lowered. it seems theres more of the C4 front swap goin on, and thus more info on it....and if i can get the C4 set up on the rear, it would make sense to use the same generation on the fronts for a complete, matching system. there seems to be some debate between C4/5 piston volumes..
again, thank you very much for the info, things are getting clearer with this swap! i dont have a computer at home, so i will post back with measurements on monday.
ps. hey jake !
thanks torker for the info i will get a size on my smaller bearings and also measure my axle housing end, from center of hole to ceter of other mounting hole , and then post them and see what you have . hopefully they are the same, thanks
Jan 26th, 03, 10:43 AM
Kip, BBCamaro here are the specs for the 93-97 rear bracket:
Center hole diameter=2.84" Your bearing will have to be bigger for this to work since the bracket serves double duty as the axle retainer.
Bolt pattern dimentions (these brackets will fit both 10 & 12 bolt rear ends):
These measurements are from centerline to centerline of bracket bolt holes.
If you guys decide to use the C4 rear stuff, or still can't decide between C4 or C5, let me offer my 2cents worth. Save yourself the headache and go the C4 route. The C4's are available in both 12" or 13" sizes, they have better wheel clearance than C5's, multiple people have swapped them on, and now we know the correct master cylinder to use. Performance wise - unless you plan on competitively racing your car, you won't know the difference. I have the 13" C4's, and I have put them though the ringer with many high speed stops and mountain driving. They do not fade at all, and my car stops so hard, it keeps shutting the motor off (fuel is pulled away from front jets). What ever you guys decide, best of luck.
[This message has been edited by Torker (edited 01-26-2003).]
Jan 26th, 03, 06:59 PM
john, thanks for you time, i am alittle confused on the pattern on the c-4 rear mounting bracket?? the bolts holes are not sqaure top and bottom?? what is the sides measurement?? i forgot to measure my bearing today but i will check it, what did you use to measure?? calipers??anyway thanks for all your help, just let me know on measurements, i have a 4 bolt axle housing flange on the 70 ford nine inch i have.
Jan 27th, 03, 03:32 AM
thanks for those measurements. i mic'd my brand new (small) bearings at 2.835 OD. so theres a problem. seems jake and i need the larger bearing and housing ends. i think the larger bearing is over 3" OD.
i did not get a chance to measure the housing to axle flange. will do that tonight.
if its still handy, how thick is that bracket? i should just order one to mock it up.
are your C4 13" fronts 1.25 thick?
i plan on autocrossing with a local car club up here and was leaning towards the 1.25 rotors. i believe the C5's are 1.25".
but your first hand experience with the C4 setup sounds worlds better than whats on my camaro now. thanks for your responses, its a great help.
yes the c-5 are 1.25 thick, i can't recall the thickness of the c-4 1.0 sounds right but might be acouple thousanths thinner than that, i will try to find out
Jan 27th, 03, 04:39 AM
kip, the c-5 are 0.125 thicker than the c-4's could not find thickness of c-4s but chicane said, that isn't much so you might not have to move basket for c-5 brakes, but we need to find out the backspace for ther c-4 rotor, we know the c-5 is 1 9/16, i emailed brian asking him
Jan 27th, 03, 05:20 AM
ECI has a kit for the ford rear... actually 2 kits, one using the caddy brakes, the other with the vette brakes. I've had their vette kit for 8 years with no problems on a large housing 9" ford rear.
Hope this link posts ok...
[This message has been edited by 68sixspeed (edited 01-27-2003).]
Jan 27th, 03, 06:00 AM
thanks for those links dan .... more options!
decent price for the complete C4 vette set up. are those factory C4 vette calipers in the kit?
i was thinking of how to modify the brackets that john is running to retain the small bearing. but ECI has the brackets covered it looks.
do you have anymore comments on the set up?
fit/quality/dealing with ECI?
The heavy duty C4 13" fronts (what I have on my car) are 1.125" thick. They measure exactly 13". Kip, this is exactly what Baer sells in their 13" track kit. So compared to the C5's they are 1/8" thinner and have a more compact caliper with a smaller pad surface area. I worried about the thickness issue too, but I glad I chose to go with the C4's. I run Hawk HP plus pads and have not been able to get these brakes to fade, I seen these on several race cars, and in my humble opinion the 13" C4's would be fine. I know that Chicane67 runs the Baer C4 stuff and does a lot of racing you might ask him how happy he is with his. As far as size wise the C5's wont fit in a 16" wheel. Chicane67 and I have the same 16" wheels and we have to run a small spacer to get the 13" C4 calipers to clear. I'm not sure if anyone has been able to use the 13" C5 disk and caliper combo anyway. I know that Tyler (TeetoeJones) has a bracket for the 12" C5's but I think he was having trouble getting the 13"'s line up correctly. You'll have to ask him.
The standard 12" C4's on the other hand use a smaller, thinner caliper and are only .81" thick. I wouldn't recommend these unless you are trying to stay within a 15" wheel.
BBCamaro, yes the flange bolt pattern for chevy 12 and 10 bolts is not square. It is larger at the top.
[This message has been edited by Torker (edited 01-27-2003).]
Jan 27th, 03, 07:01 AM
john, what size rim do you need to run the 13" front brakes?? thanks for all your help, i think i am going with the c-4 stuff, front and rear, thanks again
that eci kit looks awesome, brackets they make allow you to mount c-4 rear brakes without having your axle bearing pressed off, i think i might order their kit or there brackets, do you have that part# and business that made your rear ebrake cables to work with you 1st gen, thanks alot
Jan 27th, 03, 08:02 AM
thanks for your input. i'm sure i'd be very very impressed with the C4 13 fronts and 12 rears. just trying to weigh my options before diving in. chicane67 mentioned in the other C4 post that the C5 had 35% more pad area and more clamping force than the C4. but it seems the calipers are larger and the rotors are thicker by .125, both of these contributing to fitment problems. i have not seen the C5 13 setup on a first gen drum spindle and hub yet either, maybe teetoe has a word about that? i think its been done on a second gen, not too sure though.
i'm goin to look into ECI about they're rear C4 bracket for the small bearing ford rear. and its looking like the C4 13 fronts right now. i would like to have a rotor over 1 inch thick, ruling out the 12 rotor.
My c4 kit from ECI fit fine. Very complete kit. I'm not sure if it is needed for all applications, but the outside diameter of the axel flange may need to be turned down to fit the rotor... mine came turned down from Mosier to match, so I had no problems, but on another rear we did at work from misc vette parts for a 12 bolt, we had to turn the axel flange down a bit.
Jan 27th, 03, 09:00 AM
dan, are you close to needing a brake job??? i ask this as i called eci today and they no longer do any of the vette stuff, the guy was kinda a jerk, anyway i thought if you had the small ford bearing, you could make a template of the bracket and post it here so we could copy and make ourselves, i don't really want to change axle housing end from small to big bearing at this time, but would like to do the rear swap, please let us know what you got, thanks for all your help
[This message has been edited by BBCamaro (edited 01-27-2003).]
Jan 27th, 03, 09:13 AM
i bet dan has the large ford bearing.
he mentioned moser axles..... dan ?
we could make a bracket up to cover our small bearing set ups. i would think its the same as large bearing bracket with some more meat on the inner part to retain the smaller bearing. too bad eci isn't doin the kits anymore. did you happen to ask if they still have any small bearing brackets laying around? i'm with you, i dont want to change over to the large bearing right now.
what sort of material are those rear caliper brackets you're running?
pretty much wondering if i can weld to them.
Jan 27th, 03, 10:34 AM
Yep, large ford housing....
I might have some layout drawings from doing the 12 bolt version that could be adapted for the small ford pattern. I'll do some looking tonight.
Jan 27th, 03, 10:41 AM
appreciate your help dan
Jan 27th, 03, 11:58 AM
Sorry, they are cast iron.
You could make your own bracket from 1/4 steel. You might want to order a bracket from gmparts.com for $25 or from a gm dealership $50, or find one in the bone yard and then make your own. The brackets are about 3/4" thick but they are offset where the caliper bolts on so I can't give you an exact template. Or you could call Baer and ask them if they will sell you their rear brackets - assuming of course they will cover the small bearing. Baer uses the same 93-97 rear C4pbrs off of a Camaro.
You mentioned that you will be autocrossing which will put a lot of side load on the bearings, in that case you might want to bite the bullet now and weld on the larger caps with the larger bearings.
Jan 27th, 03, 03:29 PM
john thanks abunch, i have decided to go c-4 13" fron and the 12" rear, on the rear calipers that you got from al cardone, are the vette's or camaros?? and are they center pull or side pull for the ebrake?? i read somewhere the side pull is best or only way to go with a leaf spring car?? let me know which ones you used thanks alot
[This message has been edited by BBCamaro (edited 01-27-2003).]
Jan 28th, 03, 06:58 AM
Side pull, from a camaro, the pn's are on my website.
See my ride:
Jan 28th, 03, 01:51 PM
john, thanks for all the help, where is the best place to get the al cardone calipers??? website or????? again thankyou for all your help
Jan 29th, 03, 03:04 AM
ah, those rear brackets are cast... oh well, had a feeling they were.
john, i think youre right about just switching over to the large bearing and housing end now. i was hoping to get away with the small bearing this summer then swap over next winter. my 'to do' list is getting bigger!
thanks for all your help... it looks like i will go with the C4 13 fronts and C4/camaro 12 rears with a manual master.