Sorry, that should be 'issues'!

Some background info: In my 70 Nova, I have power steering, but wanted to get some better feel and response so started checking into the fast-ratio conversion stuff. I found some parts on an '88 or '89 TA in the junkyard that were in good shape. I got the box, lines, pump, etc... I did the swap this weekend which was pretty straight-forward, but now the sttering is not what I expected because it is really stiff. I have run it several times jacked up in the front while turing the wheels back and forth, but it isn't getting any better.
So here are my questions:
1. I'm trying to use 'real' power steering fluid, the Valvoline Synpower to be exact. Is this ok with the newer boxes? The new steering box had a bunch of darker red fluid that looked kinda like tranny fluid that might have been burnt?

2. What is the correct steering box 'bleeding' procedure?

3. I got the TA pump, but used my old pump by just replacing the pressure fitting, valve and spring with the ones fron the TA box... is this the correct thing to do?

4. How hot is the power steering fluid/system supposed to get? I ask because after taking a quick trip around a couple of blocks, I noticed that the pressure hose fittings were pretty hot and the fluid was pretty hot. Almost to the point of not being albe to touch the fittings, but not quite. That seemed pretty warm considering I hadn't gone very far, but I did do some zig-zagging and figure 8's.

5. Does pulley size make any difference? It looks like the pulley on the TA pump is about 1/2" larger in diamwter than my stock one, so could that effect the pressure and therefore the amount of power assist?

Overall, the steering seems much better, but almost like there is not much assist.

Thnaks for the help,
Bill C.

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Bill C.
Colorado Springs, CO

68 Camaro... someday!
71 Chevelle SS
70 Nova

[This message has been edited by BC (edited 04-15-2002).]

i thought a faster ratio was supposed to be a bit stiffer? that is because you are giving up some mechanical advantage in the steering for better road feel and quicker response. anything will feel stiff when compared to a stock 70 Nova PS box. i can turn mine with one finger- and i have the "fast ratio" with 3 turns lock to lock. i hate that. i would love to have a tighter wheel, but keep the PS for parking lot maneuvers.

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1971 Nova(looks like 69 camaro from underneath!)
355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16X8" IROC wheels. 12" Corvette brakes on the way.
see pics here http://community.webshots.com/user/novaderrik

derrek,
I would expect it to be stiffer, but not this stiff! ALso, I'm concerned that the pump is getting too hot...

Any other suggestions?

Bill C.

I have an AGR quick ratio box in my Camaro. The effort required to turn is definitely much more than a stock Camaro box. However, in a tight turn situation with very little forward speed, I can tell it is power assisted.

I would get the TA pully too. The pully, valves, and steering box were designed to work together.

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Pearl blue & white 69 Camaro with supercharged 350, Tremec TKO, and 3.73 12-bolt

See my website updated 4/16/01 at:

www.geocities.com/gheatly (http://www.geocities.com/gheatly)

gheatly,
I did get the pulley, but it is for a serpentine system, not a v-belt. I checked and mine is about 1/2" in diameter smaller, so it shouldn't make much difference.

An update: Tonight I took the pump and hoses off to see if I could find any restrictions and compare the pump fitting to the old one. What I found is that behind the screw in fitting in the pump is somekind of a valve that has a micro-screen on the end of it. You can probably guess the rest... had what appeared the be rubber shavings from the old O-rings I guess and was probably limiting flow. I cleaned it out real good and put it all back together. After a minor mis-hap with the belt, everything is back together and I went for a test drive. It is easier to turn now and much more livable! It is still no where near the stock setup and I like this much better. Definitely better road feel and the quicker ratio doesn't hurt either. If anyone has any more input, I'd still love to hear it,

Thanks again,
Bill C.

What'd you pay the boneyard for that power steering system?

-gw

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1967 Camaro
406/M20 11.94@117
http://home.attbi.com/~gordon.warren/

The steering box was $19.99, the pump was $12.99 and the hose was about $2 if bought separately, but included with the box in some cases.

If you were to re-use your PS pump, you can probably get the o-ring type fitting off the donor pump for just a few bucks or free if you leave it on the end of the hose.

It's still pretty stiff, but I'm getting used to it. I might play with some more valves in the future and see if I can get it a little softer.

I saw at least two other 88 or so TAs in the yard, both had the external PS coolers that I might try.

Bill C.

That's dirty cheap! I like the idea of doing this, but I'm afraid to waste my time and end up with something that isn't a bolt in on my 67 Camaro.

I was looking at the boxes that YearOne sells. They sell a replacement for my 67 with IROC internals with 2.5 turns lock to lock. But it's $279.

BTW, they say in their catalog to bleed the PS system, just fill the reservoir and with the engine running, turn the wheel from lock to lock and keep an eye on the fluid level. Top it off and continue turning lock to lock until the squeal is gone or until the fluid level remains steady.

-gw

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1967 Camaro
406/M20 11.94@117
http://home.attbi.com/~gordon.warren/

The power steering system can also be gravity bled. Just fill the reservoir up to the top and wait a few hours. The fluid volume will fall. Top it off ond let it sit overnight and your done. You may need to adjust the fluid level after the first drive.

gwarren,
It was a direct bolt in for my Nova, so it should fit the Camaro no problems. I have done both of the bleeding methods you guys have suggested and feel both work well. no more air in the lines, but still a little stiff. I guess that is normal, I was just expecting it to be easier turning, not that it's bad like this!

thanks again,
Bill C.

Hey Bill, what tires and wheels are you running up front and how is the turn radius? I am thinking of suggesting this swap to my dad or perhaps doing something similar to my El Camino.

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Bryan Shook
Favorite Quote - Some people have shrinks. Some people have their garage.
My Father's 1968 RS 327! (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6673/camaro.html)
My First Generation Camaro site (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/6673/firstgen.html)

To fill, I would fill and run the engine and refill as needed, turning the wheels to get the air out and refill.
DONT go full lock and hold the wheel!
The fluid will get aireated some and more fluid can probably be added the next day after it settles out.

There is a difference in the outlet fittings in the pump side from early to late. The pressure regulating valve is notched in the rear for the early fitting, you should use the pressure reg valve that goes with the outlet fitting it came with.
If you use the late pressure valve with early outlet, there is no notch for fluid access to the outlet hole in the late pressure valve and flow will be cut off or restricted.

Checking the screen on the pressure valve is a good idea.
Several things can happen to cause lack of boost.
The pump can run short of pressure at low or idle - no boost when turning the wheel.
The pump can run short of volume at idle or low speeds when the wheel is turned quickly.
The pump belt can slip, causing loss of pressure AND volume.
If you have loss of pressure,- you can either speed up idle speed, or the best fix would be to remove one shim under the pressure regulator valve nut, the nut with the screen in it.

For loss of flow, drill out the restrictor orifice in the outlet. I have specs on my web page. Early boxes have a smaller orifice hole and run out of volume sooner. The later female fittings are better in this regard, and have a better style tapered inlet too.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

elcamino72,
I'm running 15x7 rims with 3 1/2" BS for now... need to find some 4" BS rims. I am running 235/60 series TAs all around. The turning radius seems fine, but I haven't tried a u-turn yet. I'm toying with doing this swap on my Chevelle (71) but need to work out the stiffness issue before that. It will probably be different due to the front vs rear steering between the two.

David,
That's exactly where I needed some help, thanks. I have tried not to go to full lock because I know it's bad, so I have never held it there is I hit it.

I could not find any info on your page about the internal pump parts and the link to another site about swapping parts did not work... any help you can give me there?

I think you are on the right track with it either not providing enough pressure or being limited in flow. I have compared the parts off the TA pump with the ones off my remaned pump and they look identical. You mentioned a notch on the end, but mine doesn't have that. Is the restrictor orifice the two small holes on the end of the valve with the screen? How much can they be enlarged?

Also, the pressure inlet side of the steering box has what looks like a valve with a flap that pushes in on it that doesn't push down very far... is that some kind of a limiting device?

edit - David, is there an internal difference in the pumps that would make a big difference? I mean could using the early pump be the problem?
Thanks for all the help so far...

Bill C.




[This message has been edited by BC (edited 04-16-2002).]

Just FYI for those interested...

I have been playing around with the turning radius of the car since the swap and haven't noticed any real difference. It was never really stellar, but not bad and I would still say that today. I can still make a U-turn in about the same amount of road as before.

Hope that helps,

David... any help with the last questions I had?

Thanks,
Bill C.

The valve with the screen in it comes in two ways. One has a notch which is the older type used with male outlet.
The other flat one is used with the female later style outlet.
The hole for more flow is in the inside of the outlet tube right on center. The oil comes in the side holes and goes through the center hole.
I haven't gotten around to adding more photos and info on that to my page yet.
I'll check the link on my page.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

Ok, so both of my valves are the later model for the female fitting and have no notches. So if I understand correctly, the fluid flows up thru the screen in the end of the valve, and out the two holes on the sides, towards the top of the valve, then somehow up through the center of the outlet. So the spring inside the valve controls the pressure while the two side holes and center hole of the outlet control volume?

Then to modify things, I can try removing shims from the valve nut or drill out the restrictor orafice? Sounds like removing the shim would be better... Is there an internal difference in the valves between earlier and later pumps? What I mean is that what if I take the pressure valve from my 'old' pump, leave it in the old pump and just swap the newer o-ring style female fitting in? Would that change the pressure?

Thanks,
Bill C.

If you are not having any problems I wouldn't increase pressure. It will load your engine and make the belt slip easier.
Only increase pressure if you lose boost at idle or low speed while turning slowly.

If you lose boost turning quickly, it is oifice related, drill that out to the size on my page.

This assumes the belt is not slipping.

I think the PS fluid can take up to 200 to 225 degrees F.
The pump will make a groaning noise when it is too hot or fluid has air bubbles in it.

I think the small valve with screen in it is a "pilot valve". It controls the opening of a relief valve. The outer body of the small valve is what moves and acts like a relief valve. It is a type of "spool valve".
The small valve relieves pressure and causes the spool valve to move open to release pressure.

Back when I fooled with my PS system, I didn't know about pilot valves, so I'm not positive this is the way it works...

There should be no other internal differences between the pumps. Some later small car pumps are smaller, use smaller valves.

The "flap valve" in the box, is a check valve. Don't know why it's in there, but that is the pressure inlet fitting.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

I wouldn't say I've had any 'problems' other than it is pretty darn stiff! It does seem to jerk a bit if I turn fast but is still stiff. Will drilling out the hole make it less stiff all around? And I must be real blind... where is this info on your page you keep referring to? I've checked out your page a half-dozen times and cannot find any reference to this stuff! Is it on the steering page or somewhere else? All I find on the steering page is a link to some other site about swapping stuff, but I can't get that link to work. One thing I noticed is when I have the cap off the pump with the engine running, it is real turbulent in the pump, is that normal? Almost like the majority of the fluid is just swirling around in the pump reservior.

I guess since I have several spare parts, I'll try some experimenting!

thanks again,
Bill C.

Ok, did some more playing last night and here's an update.
I took another fitting for the pump and drilled the center hole out a bit and also also added a second hole towards the end where the other hole is. So now I think there should be plenty of fluid flow. Got everything back together and not much difference. It might be slightly better, but not enough. So now I'm thinking there is not enough pressure getting to the box. I didn't see any way to modify what I think David calls the 'pilot valve' because there are no shims on it. If you take the nut off, it is actually a screw that goes into the housing. There is a little metal ball that sits on a small piston type thing that extends into the spring. I have no idea if I can modify that or not... the only way would be to either add shims or tighten the nut down all the way. It seemed like it wasn't tighten all the way for a reason, maybe a 1/16" shy of all the way.
The only other possibility I see is that the pump is not making enough pressure. I want to try to put the TA pump on, but have to work out the pulley issue first. I'm heading to the junkyard today to see if I can find a pump with the correct pulley I can use. Do you think a smaller diameter pulley would make a difference?

Thanks again,
Bill C.