Went to Baer/Hotchkis/Flowmaster open track day.
It appears the early Camaro PS systems are not getting enough cooling to survive.

CarlC's PS pump filler neck came unsoldered from the pump and fell off!

I talked to Lee Manufacturing today, and here are his comments.

It takes about 550 degrees to melt the solder holding the filler neck. I think solder melts lower than that but there are lots of different solders out there...

At high RPM's the PS system is putting out about 20 times the volume that is needed. At that speed the hoses are becoming a restriction to flow.
There is so little total system volume, the fluid is really moving and heats up and foams the oil.

The pump should be run slower, but for a street car, the volume at idle may be too low to turn quickly enough!

Race cars run the PS pumps from 1/2 to 1/4 of engine speed.

Most Camaro pumps are 1 to 1 speed, or .92 of engine speed.

A larger PS pulley would be a good addition if the car will still steer at low rpm's.

A remote reservoir is good for a 30 to 60 degree reduction in temps. The suction hose on the bottom of the reservoir should be half inch dia.

Winston cup cars run PS temps of 300 to 350 degrees. Not that you would want to go that hot, but the WC teams won't spare any air flow to cool the steering.

A flat tube cooler is a bit better for cooling fluid. this would be a Serk, Mocal, or Earls Temp A Cure type oil cooler, but these coolers have flat sides where the fins connect similar to a water radiator. The PS fluid is vibrating rapidly and these coolers can vibrate too and make noise. The vibrations also can damage the cooler after years of vibration.

The round tube type cooler is not quite as good for cooling but less noisy and more durable.

A good cooler should be used with ample air flow through it. A good cooler will have a 4 to 5 degree temp drop from inlet to outlet.

Tony Huttmer showed us a neat PS reservoir with a cleanable screen filter inside.

You might consider a smaller crank pulley to reduce all accessories on the car, but cooling and charging may suffer if you slow them down too much.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-10-2002).]

Just an aside David to your excellent info. on PS overheating. You might also consider trying a synthetic fluid like Amsoil Auto. Transmission fluid since it will run cooler by its nature. That might buy you some degrees of lower temps. Its a trick I know others have used successfully, including the huge 4 wheelers you see in auditoriums.
click http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif


------------------
69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,3.08 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

David, thanks for the info.

Would that apply to my car with rack and pinion?...or would that make any difference at all?

I haven't had it on a track yet, but I did think about using a cooler from a late Cadillac.

------------------
Don~ ZZ430DropTop (http://hometown.aol.com/zz430droptop67rs)
~~~~and~~~~
70 RS/Z28 (http://hometown.aol.com/performancespecs)
67 RS/SS Convertible, 70 RS/Z28

Carl and James were both using Valvoline Synthetic PS fluid.
I did some snooping on the net last night, and found the high perf late Camaros come with a water to oil PS cooler, actually, a "heat exhanger".
Like this from Laminova Co. http://www.laminova.se/company/history.htm

I also asked about using the auto trans cooler in the radiator tank, and he was not impressed with them, but I feel they should help quite a bit. They cool the trans OK.

Lee also mentioned later pumps with plastic housings that melted...

I would think if you use a power rack, I would use a smaller pump with it like an 80's vette pump or maybe the KSE pump.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

David,

Thanks for the info.

Did Lee mention why he does not like using the automatic transmission cooler in the radiator? It seems that it would be an elegant solution for those with it already built in. Would there be any pressure issues using this setup?

Is there only a 4-5 degree temperature drop across a bolt-on heat exhanger? That does not seem like much.

I'll tear into the burned up pump later in the week and post my findings.

------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Carl, what a great experience.
David - thanks for the insights.

Carl, what thoughts do you have to addrss this area. Any other 'mods' that will develope from your track experience. BTW - I think the current Camaro Performers should be titled 'Carl's Performer'!

------------------
Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,M20,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

KSE makes the neat remote reservoir with filter. I found it on their site.

I wish it were a taller reservoir by a couple of inches. A little more fluid capacity would surely help.

I'm thinking of permanently sealing my pump "can" and adding a fitting to the top of it somewhere. and plumbing that to the remote tank. That way, the total oil capacity would be doubled.

I may just buy the KSE tank, and extend it.

A couple of things I've learned from my farm experience with hydraulics.

The return should enter below reservoir surface level to prevent foaming.
Return should be as far away from pump pickup as possible to allow max time for the oil to de-aireate.
A baffle between return and pickup is a good way to make sure the return oil circulates around the tank fully before going to the pump. This is mainly concern on larger industrial systems.

The oil tank capacity should be at least four times the flow rate in gallons per minute, minimum.

On high flow systems, screen filters are the best, not paper filters.

The higher the flow rate, or pressure, the more heat you will have.

The above is just background info on general hydraulic system use.

Carl, the pump comes apart easily. Compressing the rear pump plate is the only hard part. It is spring loaded and you need a small punch through a hole to drive out the retaining ring.

Make sure you pay attention to the pump ring position in the pump. It is easy to flip it around and get backwards.

check for scoring on the vanes and the pump bushing and seal.
Check the little pressure regulator screen for debris.

You can buy a kit to rebuild it pretty cheap. It has seals, rotor, vanes, ring. I don't think the kit has a shaft, and no bushing.

The vibrations of the pump may eventually damage the in radiator cooler for auto trans. Lee didn't say a lot about the in radiator trans cooler other than not enthusiastic about them.
He menitoned sound shock waves radiating outward from flat tube type coolers, the round tube coolers seem to carry the vibrations along and not radiate them. I think we have enough engine noise to mask that, and he said the flat type are probably better coolers, but would crack after some time, probably years on our use. But off road racers fail them in less than a year.

The in radiator type are built similarly to the flat tube coolers, so might be less durable than the round tube type coolers. I'd sure try the in rad cooler if I had one.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-11-2002).]

David,

Thanks a bunch for the info. I like the KSE tank that Tony has, and combined with a good cooler will hopefully do the trick. It's a long tow home from Buttonwillow!

Rick,

David said something to me at the track that puts it all in perspective. The street is one thing, but a racetrack will bring out all the weak points of the car. I thought that my bases covered and never even considered that the power steering reservoir would be an issue. If I drove the car a little easier and it was mostly stock there may not be an issue. Kevin drove his Monte with stock PS box and pump all day with zero problems.



------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Been doing research on the integrated radiator/heat exchanger idea. C&R, makers of custom radiators for all applications including Indy cars, does not have a problem with having the power steering cooled by a heat exchanger in the radiator. Asked about the vibration from pump issue and response was never heard for such a cause for failure. Griffin radiator does not have a problem with it either. But, they said most road racers they make radiators for use a dedicated cooler for power steering while having the engine oil cooled by a heat exchanger in the radiator. Have a call into Ron Davis radiators. Interested to see what they say. Looks like personal preference at this point. I'm leaning toward a separate cooler for the power steering and engine oil heat exchanger in the radiator.

Have a question about remote reservior pumps. Saginaw TC models are availible from Mullins, AGR and others. For the same money an aluminum pump from KCR power steering and other aftermarket pump manufacturers can be bought. Seems I'm opening a can of worms here as I haven't a clue with aftermarket remote pumps. Any words of wisdom? I need a new pump and would like to use a remote style for added volume and cooling.


------------------
Joseph

1969 Camaro
Engine and Exhaust:
404 SB w/ 10.3:1 Eagle 4140 assembly in Dart Little-M block, AFR 210's, Crower #00350 short track solid cam 238/244 @ .050" on a 107 lobe center and .530" lift w/ 1.6 rockers, Holley 750 vac sec, Victor Jr., custom 1.75" headers, Spintech 2.5" exhaust with x-pipe and Sportsman XL mufflers.
Transmission:
1996 T-56
Suspension:
Guldstrand Mod. Landrum 600# front springs and adjustable spacers, Hotchkis 1.125" front bar, Detroit Eaton 175# rear springs, Bilstien shocks.
1971 Ford Bronco

Joseph, thanks for the added research, pulling together, we are going to all do better and hopefully avoid further troubles.

I really like the engine cooler in radiator deal. Most later GM pickups have it, my 92 Blazer has one and the radiator is a copper end tank and copper core type.
It's odd the TC pump is not used on any camaro type steering boxes. I think it is used on rack and pinion only.
But for racing they use them on everything.

Best I can tell, the TC has an output of 2/4 to 2.8 gpm, the "P" pump like ours, has 3.8, 4.5 gpm. This is at two pressures, the lowest flow is at 1500 psi, the higher is around 1100 psi.

Joseph, is your pump totally not working? Or is it just making noise?

I have an extra old pump that is apart, spent last night examining it for ways to convert it. It looks pretty easy to do. just plug two holes in the bottom, and remove a welch plug on top and drill and tap it. I'd use a steel fitting threaded into the pump for durability.

I'm pretty sure there was a GM car that used a remote tank connected by a 5/8" or 3/4" hose to the pump which had no neck on the pump, but a nipple for the hose on the pump can. this would make converting the pump unnecessary. But you'd have to use a plain hose or hose with worm gear hose clamps unless you welded a fitting onto it.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-12-2002).]

If the TC pump has adequate flow and pressure to support the needs of fast-ratio steering boxes, pitman arms, steering arms, and wide front tires it seems to be the way to go.

Seems we only want just enough to get the job done as far as flow volume and pressure, but go a little overboard on cooling and system volume.

If Lee's statement about excessive volume at high speeds is correct then using the TC pump with a standard pulley should help relieve high-speed aeration and cooling. Does anyone know what cars the TC pump is used on? It would be nice to use an off the shelf pump for replacment purposes. Is the Detroit Speed pump a TC? They team it with their rebuit steering boxes.

Stock automatic transmission radiator attachments are 5/16" connections. If the P pump is used with this setup I wonder how much of a restriction the inlet/outlet becomes?

Like most things there is a lot of info to digest.


------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

David,

The pump is toast! By the time I pulled into my driveway Sat. night I had zero assist. I was hoping your aerated fluid diagnosis was correct for the groaning and lowered assist after that last run but the pump could not take the heat and broke down I guess. Come to think of it, maybe the jerkiness in the wheel we were experiencing on the big right hand sweeper was due to the failing pump.

Detroit Speed offers a TC pump with 3-3.4 gpm @ 1500 and pressure relief 1250-1350 psi. They offer 12:1 boxes so assuming their pump will work with my AGR 12:1 box. I am going try to find out what the flow and pressure relief is for the KRC pump and others if possible and will post.

Thanks for the info. to convert my pump. I would like to try either a TC pump or aftermarket unit for no other reason than to try something different.



------------------
Joseph

1969 Camaro
Engine and Exhaust:
404 SB w/ 10.3:1 Eagle 4140 assembly in Dart Little-M block, AFR 210's, Crower #00350 short track solid cam 238/244 @ .050" on a 107 lobe center and .530" lift w/ 1.6 rockers, Holley 750 vac sec, Victor Jr., custom 1.75" headers, Spintech 2.5" exhaust with x-pipe and Sportsman XL mufflers.
Transmission:
1996 T-56
Suspension:
Guldstrand Mod. Landrum 600# front springs and adjustable spacers, Hotchkis 1.125" front bar, Detroit Eaton 175# rear springs, Bilstien shocks.
1971 Ford Bronco

Joseph,
Yes, the TC pump has a ball bearing and seems to be good for more RPM's too.
I imagine with a smaller rotor the vanes have less friction on the TC pump. Plus the lower GPM flow may reduce heating. Adding to the reservoir volume of the system will allow more time for the oil to cool plus de-aireate.

I do think you were feeling the pump getting abused and either heat, foaming, or pressure reduction, probably all three!

You can buy a kit to rebuild your pump. It comes with a new ring, rotor, vanes, and end plates, plus new seals.

There is a big bushing for the shaft and the kit does not have that, plus the shaft is not in the kit. I don't know if there is a more complete kit with more parts.

I think the pump Tony has is the TC pump. The aluminum pump is a corvette pump from 84 or so, I have heard. I think otherwise the same as a TC pump.

If your idle is slow, the TC may be a little lacking in flow, otherwise it should work fine.
I think the choice is between std speed TC, and a slowed down type "P" pump.

Or a std speed std pump would probaby last OK with a good cooler on it.
David



------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

O.K., heres what ARG and KRC has to say about pumps. Aluminum body pumps cool better than cast iron pumps. Both like 1200-1300 PSI pressure relief for the street. That's in line with what Detroit speed is offering in their pump. As for flow the KRC pump has 9 replaceble flow valves from 1.05-3.17 GPM. This is a cool feature which could be used to control squealing due to high flow. As an example the KRC tech relayed a story of putting one of there pumps in a friend's and it squealed. Changed the flow valve to cure problem. Different valves can also be used to "dial" in feel for the steering response as well. AGR mentioned that changing the flow rate will have a minimal effect on steering feel. This is due to the box design. I'm a bit fuzzy on this so some or all of what I say might be incorrect. Steeing "feel" is primarily determined by a torsion bar in the box, not so much by flow from the pump. Any help making this more clear would be appreciated.

KRC recommends part# 20,000 for the street and can be ordered with a pulley. Comes with 2.1 GPM flow valve, 1250 PSI pressure relief, -6AN pressure and -10AN return line fittings.
AGR recommends part# 803226P for the street which is a remote aluminum TC pump. This part number includes mounted anodized aluminum pulley. Not sure of the diameter. Setup for 2.5 GPM flow, 1200 PSI pressure relief and -10 AN return line fitting. Forgot to ask about the pressure fitting but assuming it is a -6AN.

All are comparable in price, within $20-30. I'm leaning toward the KRC unit because of the replacable flow valves, sucker for the added bells and whistles.



------------------
Joseph

1969 Camaro
Engine and Exhaust:
404 SB w/ 10.3:1 Eagle 4140 assembly in Dart Little-M block, AFR 210's, Crower #00350 short track solid cam 238/244 @ .050" on a 107 lobe center and .530" lift w/ 1.6 rockers, Holley 750 vac sec, Victor Jr., custom 1.75" headers, Spintech 2.5" exhaust with x-pipe and Sportsman XL mufflers.
Transmission:
1996 T-56
Suspension:
Guldstrand Mod. Landrum 600# front springs and adjustable spacers, Hotchkis 1.125" front bar, Detroit Eaton 175# rear springs, Bilstien shocks.
1971 Ford Bronco

Wow, what a great bunch of information!

I stopped by the local GM dealer to discuss factory options using the P pump and some sort of factory housing and reservoir.

GM offered remote reservoirs on early Chevelles and trucks. The pump is only offered as a rebuilt part and comes with the "can" that has a hose attachment for the reservoir. The pump only comes with the can for $75 +$7 core. The reservoir, cap, and hose will run close to $100. The return line is in the "stock" location for the application, meaning that it may not be in the correct location for F-body bracketry. It also won't allow for the fluid in the reservoir to be easily re-circultated since the return flows back into the pump can.

A cooler is also available, but is just a weaving of steel return line tubing.

They weren't to helpful on the T or TC pump.

Being able to change the valving seems like it could be the best of both worlds. Tune it so it has just enough flow volume for parking lot turns, test at the track, and make changes accordingly.

Did KRC state if the pully offset is the same as stock? Will their standard bracketry and pulley land in the same belt/pulley plane as stock?

------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

[This message has been edited by CarlC (edited 06-13-2002).]

This is a good time for me to add what I did to my 67 system when I started autocrossing.
There was not enough pressure to turn the wheels at idle, so I removed the thinnest shim in the pressure valve. Factory spec for my pump was 900-1000psi. I don't know how high it went when the shim was removed but hopefully a couple of hundred pounds more.

I was also lacking flow when turning fast at low engine speeds, so I drilled out the restriction in the outlet fitting.

The KRC pump is a roller pump, the TC is probably a vane type. I don't know which is "best" I do know vanes require better lubrication quality than gear type pumps.
We had a vane type farm hydraulic pump that was damaged because we put transmission fluid in it instead of hydraulic fluid.
This vane pump had implements plugged into it that were also used on our John Deere tractors the John Deere uses a form of auto trans and the trans fluid is used for the hydraulic system, to power remote plug in implements, like a disc, plow, grader, that are towed behind the tractor.
The gear pumps we had in a similar situation, didn't have any problems. It was then that I learned the vane pumps were sensitive to lube due to their sliding friction.

The first gen pump shaft is 5/8" and has a key. the pulley is easily removeable after removing the nut on the shaft.

The later design pumps after around 74, all use a press on pulley about 3/4" dia shaft, and no nut.
I see the KRC has a nut but dont know the size of the shaft. I doubt any of the new pumps would be able to use our origonal pulleys unless the pulley were bored out.

Coleman sells KRC pump and pulley for $236.35.
They have a mount bracket kit for $44.90 don't know where it mounts, head or block.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-13-2002).]

Joseph,
The valve in the box controls feel like the AGR guy said. But if flow and pressure is excessive or too low, you might feel it in the steering wheel when the valve cracks open and shut. Kinda like you were discribing to me at the track.

So, I think adjusting at the pump for feel is not really a good way to make much difference in feel, maybe a little difference.

I like the KRC adjusability too, but the AGR uses a stock based pump that would be replaceable at any parts store. You might not get the same exact pressure flow from the parts store, but if your AGR pump failed somewhere, (like Buttonwillow) you could probably go to a local parts store and swap internal parts or whatever to make it work again.
If the KRC dies you are going to have to wait for parts to be shipped.
Just thinking out loud here, trying to make up my mind too.

I have a Lee stock type "P" pump that has not been used yet. My reciept shows it was tested for flow at 1500 psi, 3 gpm.

Trying to figure out weather to use it with a cooler or replace with an AGR or KSE.

I think the cooler and reservoir are the main help. A little less flow is probably a help, but you can't go too low or low speed and autocross is not going to work.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-13-2002).]

Where does the excess fluid go? Is it internally bypassed back to the can/housing reservoir on stock applications? What about the TC type?

Torker's Lee prep'ed pump also had one shim removed and the output orifice enlarged. He's also nervous since he has the hydroboost system so his brakes are affected as well.

I too like the availability of a stock pump for the "just in case" situation. Perhaps the truck GM pump and can, combined with a KSE reservoir/filter, and a cooler will do the trick. A stock automobile pressure valve, with a smaller orifice, may be necessary instead of the supplied GM part.

Dang, there's too many choices!

------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

[This message has been edited by CarlC (edited 06-13-2002).]

Carl, the excess fluid goes through the pump and returns to the reservoir.
The system pressure is low unless the spool valve, or servo valve or whatever it is called, - is in need of power assist, then the outlet of the box is restricted by the valve pressure is diverted to the proper side of the power piston, line pressure builds and is applied to the box piston for assist.

I can see where the fast ratio steering might require more boost and consequently more pump pressure since it has a less advantageous leverage/gear ratio over the wheels.
In other words I imagine a faster ratio box has to work harder than a slower ratio box and may ask the pump to put out slightly higher pressure more of the time.

This type hydraulic system is called an "open center" system where the pump makes no pressure until needed. System pressure should not reach max under normal operation, unless you hit the stops at the end of travel. Otherwise you would hear the pressure relief valve when driving in a corner, and you don't.

Wider tires, more offset on the wheels adds to the steering load.

There is a truck pump used on C-60 flatbed sized trucks. It has a remote reservoir but I think it is very large.
The pickup pumps are same as cars, as far as type, but maybe a higher relief valve setting.

Carl,
I don't think a higher relief valve setting would cause much trouble on an open track because you should not be reaching max or near max pressure unless hitting the stops or perhaps at idle turning the wheels like when parking.

Once the pump reaches bypass, the bypassed fluid is recirulated within the pump casting, and it would heat up VERY quickly! It only travels about two inches around and around in a loop, going back through the pump over and over.
That said, I would not boost pressure unless I had problems turning the wheels when at idle. that's where I had low pressure problems on my 67. Even revving the engine didn't help.

I think the fact that the remote reservoir cools the system by up to 60degrees, tells me that adding a cooler would probably solve the problem for sure. Even with a stock pump housing a real good cooler might do it.
Imagine running your engine without any radiator!

As we discussed at the track, if we ran longer events, we'd probably need trans and diff coolers too!
David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-13-2002).]

got a reply from Chad Raynal who vintage races a 69 with ps. He has the Sweet pump (TC) and remote reservoir on it. He has had no failures with that setup and has no cooler on it. I don't think the pump speed is slowed down either.

I'm going to put a remote reservoir and cooler on my 67 and use the TC pump, don't know who I will get one from, maybe AGR.

Here is a fluidyne cooler to look at. http://www.fluidyne.com/pl_soc.html
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

David,

Does Chad have any low-speed steering problems with the TC pump? Seems the better TC pumps have sufficient output to support our fast-ratio boxes and steering arms.

As for coolers, if the the stock reservoir and cap was to be used then the cooler needs to be mounted below the pump or it would backfill the reservoir. That limits the cooler to something small that mounts on the front frame crossmember.

------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

The 90' g20 Chevy vans {i have a '90 &'95}
use a remote reservoir pump setup, should be easy/cheep from a wrecking yard...


------------------
'67 RS 427,4 Speed
Disc brakes,console, fold down rear seat,heater,
Radio Delete, Cowl hood,front,rear spoilers,
Black/black; white bumblebee stripe

Carl,
No shortages reported by him. Although he's not autocrossed or anything, but it seems to have enough fluid flow.
My reciept from Lee shows 3 gpm test at 1500 psi. The TC is capable of supposedly 2.4 to 2.8 gpm, I guess depending on pressure.

It get's more confusing, because many pumps are used on racks these days...

I think if a cooler were mounted with inlet and outlet at the top, it could be mounted higher than the pump. There might be some drainback of the line from the cooler, but maybe not.
Summit sells a long U tube cooler that could be mounted below and in front of the radiator. Like this: http://www.go-fast.org/z28/pscool.html

Even just running some tube back and forth would probably help, that's what my IROC had on it.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-14-2002).]

David,

I tore into the pump and it's in better condition that I thought.

The vanes are in in good condition, no scoring on the ends.

The ID of the pump housing where the vanes ride is pretty smooth. No scoring. The only visible thing wrong is there is a bit of waviness in the corners, but it extends the length of the housing. There is barely a worn vane pathway.

The only scoring is on the front of the hub that holds the vanes. It rubbed on the plate just behind it. There is scoring on the plate as well.

There is zero debris in the screen.

Torker has a spare pump that I will put in just to check.

Is it possible that the steering box could have been damaged?

------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

That's good news. I know the PS box pistons have teflon O rings on them, hope they are not damaged.
A rebuild kit is pretty cheap if they are still available.
I'd try using the radiator trans cooler. I don't see why it wouldn't help a bunch. I don't think there will be any drainback, because air would have to enter the lines to allow it. If you used steel tube lines to connect to it, that would help cool further.

According to Lee, round tube coolers are longer lasting though. He was talking mainly about race use. Anything from NASCAR to off-road. Said less than one year for a flat tube cooler on an off-road racer. for our use, he said it would last years.

How are the ends of the vanes?
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-14-2002).]

The ends of the vanes are in good condition. Overall the pump is in pretty good shape except for the ends of the vane hub and cap. I did not check the condition of the O-rings in the pump body yet.

I've never torn into a PS box, can't be too hard unless special tooling is required.

I just want to stab it back together for now until we figure out how the TC pump, pulley, cooler, and reservoir thing is going to shake out. If I have to take the box out it's a major pain so I'd rather find that out before putting on the new big $ system.

We'll find out tomorrow.

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The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

If the pump was groaning, it was probably the pump.
also the belts and pulleys are probably soaked with oil with the reservoir coming off like it did.
I remember the pulley load was almost to the limit on my old pump. I often had slipping if the belt was not tight and had a good belt on it.
Good luck with it.
I haven't had a box apart completely but the piston end has all the steel balls in it and that looks like something you don't want to mess up by dropping steel balls all over the floor!
David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

up

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

For those who wish to upgrade the steering on a 69 Camaro to a remote reservior pump and wish to retain the stock location of the accessories (i.e. A/C) I have found the setup. This setup hinges on a two groove power steering pump pulley made by Canton Racing Products part# 74622 for $62.55. They are the only company making an aftermarket two groove power steering pulley that I could find. AFCO racing products at http://www.afcoracing.com has an aluminum TC style pump with a 3/4" press fit shaft for $145 which includes fittings. With this setup, a cooler and reservior I hope to put an end to any over heating problems.



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Joseph

1969 Camaro
Engine and Exhaust:
404 SB w/ 10.3:1 Eagle 4140 assembly in Dart Little-M block, AFR 210's, Crower #00350 short track solid cam 238/244 @ .050" on a 107 lobe center and .530" lift w/ 1.6 rockers, Holley 750 vac sec, Victor Jr., custom 1.75" headers, Spintech 2.5" exhaust with x-pipe and Sportsman XL mufflers.
Transmission:
1996 T-56
Suspension:
Guldstrand Mod. Landrum 600# front springs and adjustable spacers, Hotchkis 1.125" front bar, Detroit Eaton 175# rear springs, Bilstien shocks.
1971 Ford Bronco