I'am in the near future going to completly rebuild my front suspension in my 68. My car has a big block with headers. I want to relocate the upper a-arms according to guldstand specifications. The problem I see is even though I will probably need to remove the headers to pull off to the upper control arm, I don't see how these studs can be knocked out with the engine in the car. Has anyone performed this operation and; is it worth the effort in performance, can it be done with the engine in the car. I plan on usuing poly bushings, hotchkis springs and sway bar. Also has anyone used or know of Pro Motorsports spindle extender, how effective are these spindle hightening devices. I'am also interested in Mark Stielows own spindle, I've tried e-mailing him several times at mastielow@aol.com (givin in CHP) to get information on his products but I never get a response.Any advice or comments on my future operation would be appreciated.

------------------
68 468 700R4

[This message has been edited by MarkM (edited 12-07-99).]

I'm afraid I have no answers, but a lot of the same questions. As I understand it, anything to make the A-Arm pivots closer together, or the balljoints further apart will be an improvement. I'm not familiar with the pro motorsports spindle extenders, but the idea seems valid. Where can I find out more about them?

Pro Motorsports #801-571-6097, the latest newstand issue of hot rod camaros refers to this product, and I belive Hot Rod may have tested them on their "Crusher Camaro" a few years back, but I have'nt look in my old issues yet. The extenders bolt between the upper control arm and the factory spindle (under $200 kit).

------------------
68 468 700R4

I also e mailed Steilow about the spindle kit, and got no response. Hot Rod did test them, and if I remember correctly they did give them a good review. Can you use both the spindle extender and the arm relocation?

I wish I knew if you could use both, I was thinking the same thing. I don't know why this Mark Sielow guy won't let people know how to buy his product.

------------------
68 468 700R4

I performed the Guldstrand modification on my '68, along with Guldstrand slalom springs and shocks. The modification works well. I wish that some magazine would do a comparison on the Guldstrand modification vs. the spindle extension. The Guldstrand mod is no cost, but the extenders allow you to go back to stock if wish. As for the engine, you can leave it in the car. If you get to the point of having the a-arms off the car, the studs can be taken out several ways. You can grab onto the head of the bolt with vice-grips and hammer. You can make a special "L" shaped extension to attach to a slide hammer to hit the bolt on the nut end. You may even find that they are not in that tight to begin with. To make the job a bunch easier buy a Stanley hacksaw blade holder. This holder leaves 3-4 inches of the blade unsupported (sticking out the end) so you can get into tight places, and has a small hand grip as well. Costs around $10. Very tight quarters for a reciprocating saw. You will be cutting out a "U" shaped piece from the front and rear of the frame mount. Be sure to radius the corner where your two cuts intersect. I drilled a 1/4" hole inside the intersection of the cutting lines so that I ended up sawing into the edge of the hole, hence creating the radius. Sharp corners are stress risers that can lead to cracks and eventual failure so you want to awoid them. Paint the exposed steel to prevent rust. Watch out for the brake and fuel lines on the RH side. You may have to re-route the fuel line since the rear of the a-arm comes very close to the frame and fuel line. I bent my fuel line a little farther inboard and turned the clamp around to make sufficient clearance. Magazine articals say that you can grind the upper a-arm and not trim the frame. I did not like this idea because it does weaken the arm, definately not something I would like to have fail at high speeds. Once completed it is a very stealty modification. If you have any questions please feel free to fire away.

Good luck

Sorry for the second post. JimM mentions tring to run both the modification and spindle extensions. Doing this would result in too much camber gain. The idea behind camber gain is to keep the load on the tire equal across its width during cornering. The factory geometry does not have enough camber gain, so the tire/wheel rolls over in a turn with only th outside of the tire being loaded, while too much gain will result in only the inside of the tire doing any work.

Carl thanks for the info. Did you have your car aligned acording to the specs given for this modification. What spring rate are your springs. Size of sway bar. Did you do the modification after or before your swaybar/springs. Could you tell a differece. Did you do this with the engine in the car. What year is your car. Does Guldstrand ever state what kind of lateral g's thes 1st gen camaros can generate.

[This message has been edited by MarkM (edited 12-07-99).]

CarlC- Did the new springs lower the car at all? How much were they? I got the catalog but it has the wrong price sheet, and there isn't much info about springs.

I am currently using an adjustable coilover set up(500 pound springs) with pro shocks and a install kit from superior spindles. I use the spindle extenders also. I am thinking of the a-arm mod of relocating the front a-arm bolt 5/8 of an inch lower than stock.(any comments on that guys?) As for this stielow guy..i have e-mailed him many times also with no response.. I think his name is being used for a new line of products and the project cars are marketing tools to sell them. The e-mail address may be a test to get responses or the guy doesnt give a hoot. I also use wheels(16x9) from vintage wheel works that look like the Trans-am wheels used in 69. I also use a 1 inch herb adams sway bar with hemi ends( no bushings) I have had read some 69 camaros with about the same set up will do about .90 to .95 on the skidpad depending on the type of tires, alignment specs and about 20 other variables. no two cars will be the same even if they have the same parts. Good Luck!

oops

[This message has been edited by Toby T. (edited 12-08-99).]

What exactly is the guldstrand mod? do they have a web site? is it the same thing i want to do with relocating the front mount bolt for the a-arm and not relocating the rear? The mod I am talking about will help with straight line stability (camber) Thanks!

I believe the web site is www.guldstrand.com I just asked for info on 1st gen camaros and they sent me a catolog, price sheet, article from hot rod on how to do the modification, and template to drill the holes.

I did the modification with the motor in the car. I performed a frame-off restoration on the car but did not discover the Guldstrand stuff untill I had the car assembled. The spring rate is probably in the 550#/in range, but depending on the weight of the car this can change. Guldstrand does not publish their spring rates so I took their reccomendation on good faith. I am very pleased. The springs are cut to fit so you can adjust ride height. The front sway bar is 1" diameter with no rear bar. This is plenty of sway bar for the car if you have these springs. I did have the car aligned to the Guldstrand specs at a Goodyear dealership using an electronic alignment machine and watched the guy like a hawk (slipped him a $20 before he started and asked a bunch of questions that I already knew to test his knowledge). If you live close to Guldstrand's facility (Torrance, CA) I think it wise to have them do the alignment. I can only compare the car to what it was like with the stock suspension. In that light, there is no comparison, I wish I had spent the money years ago for all of the Guldstrand components (I got the whole enchilada; front and rear springs, Bilstein shocks, sway bar, shackles, etc.) The front springs were in the $140 range. There are some other companies out there that have similar components but like anything in this ballpark you need to do your research.

Had to go to a car club meeting so again,sorry for the second post. Lateral "G's" cannot be stated or claimed by any aftermarket company. If they do they are halucinating. Is your ride height, shocks, springs, bushings, weight, tires, rims, air pressure, sub-frame connectors, pivot points, bushings, etc. identical to the car that they claim the numbers came from? If you get a chance take a look at the Guldstrand catalog. Dick Guldstrand discusses the "G" issue and for me it was enlightening.

TonyT: The Guldstrand modification is similar to your question about moving the front A-arm mount except the Gulstrand modification moves both the front and rear. I believe Steilow moved only the front mount in his latest Camaro adventure but he also had totally reworked spindles. I would guess that if did not have access to a machine shop that you could pay $2k do get them made right if you have all the specifications. Too rich for me. MarkM's post above is right on target, Guldstrand will send you the template. Also, how do you like your Vintage 45's?

Moving both mounts and having the spindle extenders is a double wammy! I will stick with the extenders only but I will do the relocation of the front mount. It seems easy as it was explained in the article I read. What it doesnt say is what you do with the old hole where the stud was before. I guess I will weld it closed and grind it smooth. This modifaction is for caster and improves high speed stability or at least it does in theory. Thanks for the comments and info Carl
Also, I really like my wheels Carl..its a great look and they are lightweight.
[This message has been edited by Toby T. (edited 12-09-99).]

[This message has been edited by Toby T. (edited 12-09-99).]

Tony- I wouldn't be surprised if you had to trim the frame mount or grind the A-arm to make it fit. There's not much room to move things around in there. Thanks for your comments on the Vintage wheels. I may have to move up to 16" and they were the only vintage style 16" wheel that still has most of the original 60's/Trans-Am flavor.

Tony - I did the upper A arm relocation that was mentioned by Mark Steilow and it did require some grinding on the Frame mount to get the A arm to clear when it was fully extended down. I have the Hotchkis sprins and with the car on the ground there is plenty of clearance. I emailed Steilow a couple of times and have always gotten a response. The Spindles that he is selling were going to be around $500 and would require using corvette or Baer Brakes. Baer makes a specific brake kit for his spindles.

CarlC , I've tried to E-mail you at the address given and it didn't go though, has it changed? Just wanted to know a little more about your combination.

A word of warning about the "Guldstrand mod" Most templates of this mod are photocopies of the mod Guldstrand did for Penske. Most photocopiers shrink or enlarge just a little bit each time they copy.... Your "trick" template may not have the center to center length exactly right to fit your A frame holes! I got my template from Guldstrand back in 1975 and it was off by a 16th inch center to center. This mod will raise your front roll center a little, which will have the effect of slightly stiffening the front suspension in roll stiffness. If you have the engine out,
I'd recommend cutting off the entire A frame mount and lowering it about 3/4" and welding it back on. This way you don't have to trim the excess off the top of the mount like you do if you re drill the holes. Also, if you do the template route, watch the rear adjust shim. The first one will hit the mount where it bends if you don't trim the ends off the first shim. Failure to do this can cause the shim to bind and fall out later. Makes a funny tinkling noise as all the shims hit your headders!

The 550 lb front spring is a nice one for street. 650 to 700 is used for road race or autocross along with stiffer leaf springs. I have a moog number for the road race spring. I got my 550 spring from Chevy years ago when they still had them, they are all gone now. I gave the 550's to a friend with a 69Z/28 and he added a 1" front sway bar and the car handles well. He chickened out on lowering the upper A arms though.

You can tune your front to rear balance by swapping rubber bushings to the swaybar on the end you want to soften. Try no rear sway bar first. It's better if you can get by without it. Regards, David

David Pozzi's web page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/
My First Gen Suspension page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 11-28-2000).]

MarkM,

I am looking for a set of front coils for my 68 big block, and the only place that I found that had them was Guldstrand - - what is the part number for your Hotchkis springs? What is the spring rate? Are they progressve rate? Also, I just got my Guldstrand catalog in the mail today and wish I had asked for the template. Is it truly worth the time and effort you guys described to relocate the arms? My camaro serves as a daily driver, but if I'm gonna have it apart anyways, I was considering the relocation option? Would the change be signigicant enough to warrant the time and effort? Also, for all you big block readers with the Guldstrand/Hotchkis front springs, how much did you have to trim the springs to get a decent ride height? What is your ride height? I just don't want to go through the hassle of installing the springs, taking them out and cutting them, and then re-installing them again. Thanks for any answers that you may be able to provide!

john
penguinjohn@hotmail.com

John, I don't have the part number for the hotchkis big block springs, go the their web site and request their catalog. They sent me their catalog and an aplication guide which has the big block spring part number, or call Summit they sell Hotchkis parts and will probably be able to get them, if or when they become available. I don't know the spring rates for the BB springs but the SB springs are rated at 600 lb, so the BB must be more than that and they are not progressive. As for the guldstand mod, I have'nt done it yet, but I plan on doing it before spring arives. The mod looks easy to do and from what I've read it should help, and it is a free mod, so what do you got to loose besides time. I think I'am just going to use OEM BB springs, and I plan on cutting them (I like my car sitting as low as possible), so that will increase the spring rate. I think the only way to get your car sitting the way you want it is to install the springs, take them out, cut them and repeat until desired height is achieved, tedious but most effective. Good luck.

------------------
68 468 700R4

[This message has been edited by MarkM (edited 02-07-2000).]

Hey guys, I'm watching this discussion close. The frontend of my car comes apart this weekend! I also didn't get a template or relocation info with my catalog from guhlstrand, I guess i'll call them again. MarkM, I like your website, and your car!

[This message has been edited by JimM (edited 02-08-2000).]

MarkM,

What is your website address? I am really interested in this relocation bit, as I will have my front end apart either friday or saturday. If it really is a worthwile project, I will definitely postpone it until I get the Guldstrand template. Also, gheatly, what is your email address? I've read a number of your posts in the past and they have been very helpful, and plus, we are relatively close. Thanks.

John
penguinjohn@hotmail.com

I did'nt know I had a website. Jim you must have mistaken me for someone else, I would like to start a website though.

Anyone know where I can get a set of custom coil springs made for a reasonable price?
Thanks

The template is printed in the book: Camaro Untold Secrets by Wayne D Guinn ISBN#0-87938-527-8 Page 138 You will notice a lower set of holes on the template. Penske tried that setting and changed to the slightly higher holes.
I highly recomend "Bump Steering" any early Camaro. I had over an inch of toe out at 3 inches of bump after doing the Guldstrand mod. My car would weave under braking and when I pointed the car into a turn it needed a second steering correction (more lock) once the body leaned. Sound familliar? With toe out under bump. The car will toe one wheel out (inside wheel) and one wheel in (outside wheel) when cornering. Especially if the car has stock springs and sway bars. I can remember autocrossing my 67 Camaro and doing the double steer at each corner. I bumpsteered the car and the problem went away. The problem is due to the steering toe links not following the same arc as the steering knuckle. This is corrected by lowering the outer steering arm by about 1/2" Guldstrand and others list a spacer for corvettes for road race use. The only trouble is that it is for a Heim type race joint. It will not last under street use. So the best thing you can do is heat and bend the stock outer arm.

An easy way to check your car is to measure the toe in change. Place the front tires on a couple of pieces of waxed paper under each front tire, so they can move. Open the hood and place cyl heads or other weight on the raidator support until the car sags 1" then re check the toe in. Do this for each inch of travel up to 3 inches.

Another way is to put a 2X4X8' on top of a couple of 4" blocks and put them against the side of the front tire on each side. each time push the 2X4 up to the tire and observe along the doorsill if the angle changes. 0 toe in is parallel to the door sills. Herb Adams taught me this one.

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 11-28-2000).]

davidpozzi,

Guldstrand recommends lowering the car 2 inches from stock ride height in addition to the a-arm mount location change. Would this solve (in whole or part) the tie rod geometry problems you mentioned?

Question about Guldstrand modification

I was looking through my Guldstrand catalog that I got a few days ago and noticed that they infact DID stick the template in it for me. I hadn't requested it, they just stuck it in there anyways - now I don't have to wait another week to get one. Anyways, I had read from one of these posts that the template is off because of copier resizing. My holes are a bit off, and I was wondering what those of you who have performed this modification did to compensate. How far apart should the new holes be? Also, what should I use to drill these holes out with? I imagine I could go through about 10 drill bits doing this. Thanks.

john
penguinjohn@hotmail.com

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gheatly:
davidpozzi,

Guldstrand recommends lowering the car 2 inches from stock ride height in addition to the a-arm mount location change. Would this solve (in whole or part) the tie rod geometry problems you mentioned?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO
It is a problem with the arc the tie rod end makes, and the arc the steering arm needs to make to stay straight. You can imagine if the steering arm is the same level as the lower A frame then it needs to be the same length and angle as the lower A frame or there will be a conflict. Taken to an extreme, if the steering link were re located to the height of the upper A frame it would need to be the same angle and length as the upper A frame.

On the early Camaros, the steering link can wind up a little higher than it should be at the outer end. That makes the steering link start to pull it's outer end in during bump. The result is toe out under bump, toe in under droop. It's not uncommon to have so much toe in on a drag car that top end speed is greatly reduced by tire scrub due to excess toe in. The Nova does it too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by penguinjohn:
Question about Guldstrand modification

I was looking through my Guldstrand catalog that I got a few days ago and noticed that they infact DID stick the template in it for me. I hadn't requested it, they just stuck it in there anyways - now I don't have to wait another week to get one. Anyways, I had read from one of these posts that the template is off because of copier resizing. My holes are a bit off, and I was wondering what those of you who have performed this modification did to compensate. How far apart should the new holes be? Also, what should I use to drill these holes out with? I imagine I could go through about 10 drill bits doing this. Thanks.

john
penguinjohn@hotmail.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The holes should be 6.5 inches apart. My template says make a hole of .444 to .440 dia. 7/16" is .4375 and most drills drill a little oversize, but you will have to ream or file a little to get the hole to the right size. I'd put a stack of washers on the bolt and draw it up while hammering the head into place. If you don't have room to get the A frame over the bolt due to engine clearance problems. Then install the bolt thru the A frame shaft. Just make shure the bolt seats properly in the hole. Also trim the rear shim that goes against the frame or it will not sit flat and cause problems.

On the subject of springs.
I would take a good look at Hyperco springs for stock class racing. You want the 5" dia springs for the "stock appearing spring rule" stock car class.
For autocross I used a 13" tall 650 lb spring. For street use or a with a little heavier engine you will need a little taller spring. They make a shorter spring for use with an adjustable spring seat that is placed on top of the spring, like stielo used on his camaro. They have plenty of selection of spring rates and will make a spring for you if you can give them the proper info. I'm returning my old autocrosser to the street and I have been looking at the adjustable setup. It seems the main problem is the adjuster needs some mods to sit correctly against the frame to stay put. I'm thinking of cutting off the top coil of my old spring and welding it to the adjuster I have, it's flat on top now and would slide around without it. I'll then need a spring about 11 inches tall with the lower end pigtailed like stock, and the top end flattened and ground to fit the flat adjustable spring seat. The adj seat has a large hole to pass the shock thru.

So I'm confused... The wwwsite, which I'm certain I linked to off this page, is: www.kdsi.net/~malandk/ (http://www.kdsi.net/~malandk/) The guy's name is Mike, not Mark. He does have a cool Camaro, though. Well, one side is down to the a-arms, the rest comes apart tomorrow. hopefully we all figure this out soon so I can go buy some parts! Jim PS, it's snowing again.

I have done the upper control arm mod and have been very happy with it, i got the template from Camaro the untold secrets book.

I need alluminium mounting blocks for my front swaybar with nylon inserts does anyone know where i can get them?

you mean this isnt your web site? http://home.earthlink.net/~mutert23/

Rob

Does anyone out there have the correct dimensions for relocating the upper control arm.I've seen it in a magazine but i can't recall the issue.Call me frugle but i can't see spending the money for something that has been in print already.Any help would be greatly appreciated.

penguinjohn i was thinking about making a drill jig to accomplish the task of moving the holes.All I need are the dimensions for the relocation.If you like i could make a second template for you.It shouldn't be a problem as long as we get the dimensions correct.From what i've read the holes move on an arc.So that might be where you made your mistake?

Buddy, I must have missed your last post but yes that is my web site but I did not have it up when you posted your original question.

As for paying for the template, unless they changed things, they set me there catalog and template for free, call them and ask.

------------------
68 468 700R4, and here it is;
mutert23 (http://home.earthlink.net/~mutert23/)

The template is on my web page.
David Pozzi's web page: David Pozzi's web page: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm

------------------
Check my web page for suspension info:
David's Homepage (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 11-28-2000).]

I called Dick Guldstrand and talked to him last year (I think) and he said that his Big block GT springs were rated at 550#/in. He also mentioned that the other two big block springs were for competition moreso than street driving, but of course they could be used if one doesn't mind putting up with a "VERY" stiff suspension. pdq67