I just recieved my solid sub frame bushings from summit. They did not come with a bottom bushing (bushing between bolt head and frame), they say to reuse the old rubber bushing. My old rubber bushings are shot. Can I just install the them with no rubber bushing and have the bolt/washer contact the sub frame and have the solid bushing bushing between the sub frame and the body as it should be? I don't understand why it could not be done this way? Am I missing something? Why are are you supposed to install the the rubber bushing, what will good will it do?

Thanks
Joe

It doesn't matter if the bottom rubber is shot because you are using the part just as a stand off.

There are three different ways to go with this from what I know. (Not much.)

1. Re-use the piece as they describe. (Mine looked like crap after thirty years so this was not an ioption for me.

2. Use a stack of washers to create the stand off.

3. Buy another set of CE bushings and turn it upside down to the first set.

4. Purchase Detroit Speed and Engineering bushings. That are designed to sleeve together. Very rugged. Very nice. The cost is thirty dollars more than option 3. This is the course I took. It seemed a lot of money but every part in the car seems expensive. When I took my wife out, we had Pizza instead of Lobster.

Rick-O

[This message has been edited by Scoop69RS-SS (edited 08-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Scoop69RS-SS (edited 08-28-2002).]

I have one more to add,

- get shorter bolts, and use about 2-3 washers, instead of the rotted out bushings

- or use the alum rad support bushings on two of the mounting areas, if you are not going to install them on the rad support

What is the "stand off"? I ran the bolts all the way up and they don't seem to be contacting anything. The fronts at the cowl seem to be ok as I can see the bolt. They did not seem to get into the shank of the bolt. Could I just use shorter bolts? Or do I need a larger contact base around the area the bolt and washer contact the sub frame?

Thanks
Joe

Just use the bushing between the subframe and body, don't worry about using the bottom rubber bushing. This is the reason you bought the solid bushings in the first, to replace the rubber bushings.

I used the original bolt and washer, but, you can use a Grade 8 shorter bolt. Use antiseize on the threads, you'll be thankful you did later in life.

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Everett 68/350/PG/11.90/115mph

Yet another option. However this lowers the dimension by some amount.

Joe, I'm confused as to why the bolts won't reach in enough to thread. Can you post pictures?

Rick-O

[This message has been edited by Scoop69RS-SS (edited 08-28-2002).]

Sorry. I ment to say they are through the treads in the body and do not seem to be to long or running into anything. They also don't seem to be hitting the shank on the bolt.

My thought exacly Everett on the rubber bushing. I have thought why do I need it. Best to ask and see what others have done. The antiseize was used. All of mine came out very easly. The rubber fell out on a few of them!!

Joe

Wait till you hit a big bump and that bolt sticks you in the butt http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif.
I too just ran mine all the way in with no bushing under the frame. The only thing I would add is that this method doesn't center the bolt in that lareg hole and if you goof up like I did and loosen them all at once you might get a little subframe shift. But if you do them one at a time like everyone advises you won't have that problem.

The only consideration I can now think of is you are now using these bushings to lower the car. There has been input here that this may cause a clearence problem with the clutch linkage z-shaft. Driving an auto?

Keep us posted.

Rick-O

Scoop:

They are supposed to be stock replacement type and not the lowered type. My car is an auto, but you bring up a good point. My rubber bushings where all messed up and when they are shot are they lowering the car? The solids seemed to be about the same hight as the old rubber ones. It did not seem to loose any clearance between the cowl and the transmission though.

I had read a few threads before and learned of the do them one side at time and do not loosen them all up method. I followed this method and I hope everything is OK. I have the front clip off and just pulled the engine/trans last night to fix some leaky seals and paint the cowl.

All this started when I needed to fix some water leaks in cowl. I found places where the putty on the cowl was all cracked and letting water in. I think some of this was caused by the excessive flex the old bushings allowed. I am also fixing some rust in the lower part of the cowl and lower fenders.
A hint remove the bottom fender bolts and unglog the drains and blow them out. My cowl was rusted about 4 inchs up and required some metal work to repair them right, we pulled out small wash bucket full of leaves and debris from both sides.

Joe

Stock type, yes, understood. However that assumes following the design criteria for the CE's which is re-use the bottom half bushing, right? If not used, this will lower the car by that dimension, right? Someone please give me a sanity check here so I do not confuse Joe instead of help him.

The CE solid bushing is taking the flex, or the rubber out of the two piece design of the stock bushing. The standard design is stacked/sleeved between the two, the rubber does it's thing in this stack. By using the CE and the old bottom bushing, you maintain the original height.

All this said about stock height, I shaved a couple-o-thousands off of the Detroit Speed bushings.

Where the heck is Boddlefoot when you need him? http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif I'm gonna go drag him outta class.


Rick-O
Amherst, NH
69 Pro-Touring



[This message has been edited by Scoop69RS-SS (edited 08-29-2002).]

Rick - Only the piece that goes between the body and subframe can effect the height.

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/ww.jpg), the '96 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

Concur with Dennis...

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Everett 68/350/PG/11.90/115mph

DJD:
My point exactly. But why do they tell you to reuse the rubber bushing on the bottom? It will tend to confuse you or make you think you are doing something wrong if you don't. I believe they don't need to be used after getting some opinions about it in this thread.

Gotta love this place.

Joe

I would guess that they tell you to re-use the bottom rubber mount for two purposes.
1) Act as a washer
2) Use up some of the length of the bolt.

Without the bottom rubber mount, I think the bolt might protrude up through the floor and push up the carpet under the seat.

I think if it were to bother you, you could use a shorter bolt and or a stack of washers and be done with it.

Now my turn for a question. LOL! Do the CE bushings have a "step" to them that registers in the subframe hole, or are they flat on both sides and just sit on top of the frame?


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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice Wagon
'99 Venture Van

The instructions in the solid bushings that I got (CE, I think) said to use the old rubber UPPER bushing on the bottom. It didn't seem to go together very well that way, so I used some large thick washers on the bottom. If you use the rubber bushing on the bottom, the ride will be cushioned somewhat, but my car is drag race only so I'm not concerned with ride quality.

Dennis, thanks. This means I waaaaaaay over spent by using the Detroit Speed bushing when the CE instructions screwed with my mind. http://www.camaros.net/forum/rolleyes.gif

sigh

Kyvox, That's the piece I meant. I'm going home early to beat my head on the tool box.


[This message has been edited by Scoop69RS-SS (edited 08-29-2002).]

I can't answer for the CE being turned down to fit into the hole but logic tells me they should be!! As for the rubber being reused it's not much of a spacer (as you tighten the bolt it will crush way down. Maybe it helps when using old bolts that half the shaft is rusted away. It would give the solid a bit of cushion even though the bushing between the frame and body is solid. The fastener would have some give and allows for some vibration dampening (I'm guessing). Someone should ask what to do if you don't have any old bushing to begin with and see what they say or provide

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/ww.jpg), the '96 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

The CE bushings DO have a "step" to them that registers in the subframe hole. I personally got shorter bolts about 2.5inches tall grade 9, and used 2 washers, and everythings cool http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

Dennis, yes logic would dictate that they are tuned down but sometimes things aren't done that way LOL!

And that brings me to my poimt. What is the big deal about the GW or DSE bushings being "interlocking"? So what, the upper bushing locates in the subframe and once the bolt is tightened down everything should stay in place. The only benefit I can see to the more expensive bushings is they are annodized and the CE ones appear to be bare aluminum. I personally don't care about that, if they start to rot I'd replace them, or just paint them in the first place.

This is not meant to bash GW or DSE, they make some quality parts. I just don't see the benifit of the added cost. Can someone shed some light on this?

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice Wagon
'99 Venture Van

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TEAM CANADA:
The CE bushings DO have a "step" to them that registers in the subframe hole. I personally got shorter bolts about 2.5inches tall grade 9, and used 2 washers, and everythings cool http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why 2 washers?

joe



------------------
69 Rat-Infested Resti-Clone
WCA Member
Badboatdude@CS.com
69 Pics http://hobbystage.net/camaro/joeg/

Why 2 washers?

cuz I didn't want the one washer to flex at all when tightening it all up, so I went with 2 for extra-strength, I guess

and also this way the bolt doesn't protrude through the floor, (each ~3mm thick)

Up front, on the firewall I even used a washer and nut, above the original caged nut, because I'm paranoid about the caged nut falling apart on me. I figure the solid bushings will increase the stress in this area, so it won't hurt..

My CE bushings came from summit and are painted black. The instructions from CE say that if your old rubber bushings can not be used you need to buy new ones! After pulling mine out and the botom rubber breaking into about 6 pieces I thought I was screwed. I posted here and got the answers to back up my feelings on this...........who needs the rubber!!
My CE's are made to lock into the subframe also. All this was one of the resones I did not order the detroit speed ones, I could not figure out why you would need a bottom bushing. Then I get the CE's and read the instructions (there is a first time for everything) and start wondering waazzzzzz....uppp with this bottom rubber bushing. I gotta wonder if it's some sort of a liability thing?? I gotta say....before getting the suport from everyone here I was thinking I just wasted my money on these because I have to buy new rubber bushings too. I thought I should have just spent the money on the Detroit Speed ones and be done with it.
I think that the detroit Speed ones are well worth the money if you want the original style bushing set up but done the trick way.
Scoop:
I don't think you over spent, you got what you paid for and ultimitly the "correct" way to do it. Not saying that no bottom bushing is not correct, I will not be changing over anytime soon if ever to the detroit speed bushings. It just goes to show that someone is engineering parts as total replacements as they should be. It is kinda pricey, but then again I wish all aftermarket parts were engineered this way. That way we would all know that new repro part you pay top dollar for is going to fit.

Joe

Quick question for those running the solid bushings, did you just use bolts and flat washers, or did you use the split ring style lock washers too?

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice Wagon
'99 Venture Van

I used the flat washer and the split ring lock washer on mine. I did not reinstall or use the rubber on the bottom.

Joe

One reason for using a solid lower bushing is to spread the load over a larger area. The area of a washer with the most clamping pressure is right underneath the bolt head.

Also, the lower aluminum bushing is 3/4 to 1 inch thick. That bushing is MUCH stiffer than a couple of washers. Each time the wheels hit a big bump, the frame presses against those washers and tried to pull them thru the hole.

Are we saying that this picture of Detroit Speed and Engineering bushings are actually a 12 piece bushing set.... 2 bushings interlocked for each mount?
http://www.eden.rutgers.edu/~vath/327/dse.jpg

and this set @ $110 is all you need to get in order to replace the whole bushing set including the rubber piece that goes underneath the frame? Otherwise you could go with other $40 that only supply upper bushings and buy some shorter bolts and a few washers... depending on the application of course.


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1968 Coupe (http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/xchange/xchange.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=313&exact_match=on&photo_size=full), 327/210hp project in process. PS/PB, Factory AC, adding camelhumps and a cam

JIM68, you are correct. There are 12 busing pieces there - 2 for each bushing location.

Thanks gheatly,
I guess I'll do it the right way using Detriot's products, but I think I'll try to salvage my existing bolts because DS&E want's $60 for thier stainless set.... http://www.detroitspeed.com/

always undecided.... Jim

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1968 Coupe (http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/xchange/xchange.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=313&exact_match=on&photo_size=full), 327/210hp project in process. PS/PB, Factory AC, adding camelhumps and a cam

You might want to price Global West bushings. They sell for around $80.00 a set. They come with 12 pieces that interlock also.
www.globalwest.net (http://www.globalwest.net) jamie
the wife's (http://hobbystage.net/camaro/69lemansii/)
69lemans (http://hobbystage.net/camaro/69lemans/)

[This message has been edited by 69lemans (edited 09-09-2002).]

I used the Global West bushings. If I had it to do again, I would buy the DSE ones because of the nifty washer piece they have. The DSE parts weren't available last year when I did mine.