I really want to reduce weight; use C4 or C5 Corvette suspension components, and use a Mustang II R&P, but here's the catch.... BUDGET!!

So don't suggest Wayne Due or Alston, etc. I am calling all you Fabricators out there. I have access to a machine to bend the square/round tubing at a shop that does Drag Car chassis, but I am intimidated by suspension geometry/A-Arm positioning, & location points needed.

Any help or names of guys who have done this would help, but if they sell them forget it... I will just be wanting FREE advice.

could you "buy" a Wayne Due subframe, measure everything on it and make some kinf of a jig to copy it, then "decide" you don't want it and return it? you'd be out the shipping, but, hey, it'd be a Wayne Due subframe for pennies on the dollar.

Rich,
I have also been thinking about making my own subframe. I'm in the Detroit area, not TOO far from NE Ohio. I have some suspenion modeling programs, and some training on chassis/suspension design. What I don't have is access to large metal bending equipment. I have the welder, and am a pretty good welder. Maybe between the two of us, with some help from the forum, we can do it. Let me know if you're interested.

Ken

My question to you is with simple mods the first Gen Camaro frame can perform as well as a c4 Corvette frme. The only draw back really is the width of tires that you can fit in the wheel well. So having said that why don't you look at the factory subframe and make a modified version eliminating the spring pocket for a real coil over setup and in the process narrowing the frame on either side to accomidate wider tires.

I say this because that is what I'm currently working on.

If your adamant to have a c4 well then you will still need to obtain the original subframe specs as a guide. If you can't get them let me know and I will provide it to you.

Todd!

Mountie,
That is a good question. I can only answer for myslef; but my reason is to learn. I am relatively young and inexperienced when I realize the company I'm in. When I see the people that are good, they all were willing to try. I have ultimate goals of building a vehicle from scratch, and I think starting with sections is a good way. As much as I appreciate the advice from others, I would like to be able to generate some of my own mistakes and success'.

Again, those are my reasons.

Ken

So BB69 are you wanting to go with a c4 or c5 setup or is modifying an original another way for you to go?

Todd!

Mountie,
For me, many decisions depend on oppurtunity. Right now, I am watching several eBAY auctions for C5 rear suspension pieces. Eventually though, I would like to make my own pieces all together. I don't really have a plan now, I just saw an oppurtunity to share some resources. For my current car, I am going to go with the Guldstrand mod and stiffer springs, shocks, sway bars. I just got my new coils today to complement the custom leafs from Bett's I bought.

Ken

novaderrik,

I have thought of that and there is a substantial restocking fee as well as the shipping charges.

What I really need to find is a guy who bought one, but is yet to install it!!! ANYBODY close?


BB69,


I would definetly be interested in talking to you or meeting sometime to figure out if we are looking for the same things. I am looking to probably use C4 aluminum A-Arms and coilovers with a Mustang II R&P, but I currently have Drum brake spindles that will be fitted wit a set of 13" C4 brakes & C5 wheels that I have. Since the Drum brake spindle are rear steer configuration using a R&P may be a potential issue. When the R&P are used with the stock subframes ALA' "Steeroids" kit there seems to be three big issues:

1.) Ground clearance(the rack is lower than your pan and everything else.

2.) Bumpsteer due to geometry issues of tie rods.

3.) Steering shaft binding due to angles of shaft/u-joints.


I thing I can still use a R&P in a rear steer configuration while correcting these issues by mounting it where I want to instead of to the back of the engine cradle.


graemlins/waving.gif

Richz68,
Have you thought about making new steering arms for the sprindles? It seems to me that you could convert to front steer by making some new arms that bolt to the spindle.

I am just completing the swap to JL8 four wheel discs, but if I were to start from scratch, I would probably want something else. I think using some NASCAR short track calipers and rotors would be the ticket. I have a buddy that works for Joe Gibbs Racing, and he might be able to help me out. Otherwise, used NASCAR parts are available on the internet. Some of those calipers are of the six piston variety. They are probably very heavy, but perfect for track sessions and heavy street abuse in the twisties.

Ken

I've heard Detroit speed will be coming out with a subframe. That would be a good one to look over.

I think it would be absolutely criminal to "buy" a Wayne Due subframe, copy it, then "return" it.
I know Wayne is NOT that stupid, and he is a valued forum member here.

There are many many replacement subframes sold for the First Gen Camaro.
There are also circle track "front clip" subs available.

Front steer arms can be bolted to a first gen spindle. Look for Monte Carlo, El-Camino, Chevelle steering arms. There are lots of Chevelle guys converting to the tall spindles, they will have left-over spindles and arms.

The biggest reason to use a non stock subframe is to have a well designed rack and pinion steering and hopefully save a little weight.

As far as cornering power and handling goes, the stock sub can do darn well with just a fiew improvements.
In the weight department, the stock bare sub weighs 100 lbs. The aluminum vette suspension components will save some weight, but it would be hard to shave much weight off the bare sub and still have good structural rigidity.
David

Mountie, do you have a subframe elevation? I've been looking all over the place for a good set of subframe plans to double check my own work.

Any help would me much appreciated.
If you would like to e-mail me about it (or have me e-mail you) send them to bladesmith1320@yahoo.com

davidpozzi,

**My original post**

"I really want to reduce weight; use C4 or C5 Corvette suspension components, and use a Mustang II R&P, but here's the catch.... BUDGET!!

So don't suggest Wayne Due or Alston, etc. I am calling all you Fabricators out there."

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <><>


I don't know if I would consider that act of "buying" something, copying it, then "returning" it being "absolutely criminal". Heck....I do it all the time when I go to the video store and/or HBO, PayPer View movies & events. :D

I realize that Wayne is not green concering the interest in his product; I really never seriously considered copying his product to begin with. :rolleyes:

Richz68,
My point about mentioning all the other subframes out there was, that you can look at those to get ideas to build yours. Not that you should buy one of them. I do realize you can't afford to buy one.

To buy a sub and make an exact copy off of it and return it is criminal in MY view. I never said you were going to do it, but since you put the rolleyes after that part of your last response, I can only take your response in a negative way.

Sorry to displease you. Maybe someone else here will be more helpful to you.
David

Novaderrik,
I was not trying to offend you, just had a very negative reaction to your suggestion. I have met Wayne Due a couple of times, and wouldn't want to see someone treat him that way. It wouldn't happen anyway as I doubt he'd take a sub back for no good reason.
David

[ 09-13-2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

davidpozzi,


Don't worry..... you did not displease me. I just kind of felt that you were under the assumption that I fully intended on scamming Wayne, Alston, Heidt's etc. in that way.

I will tell you this.... if I can find a bare subframe unmounted.... I will be taking some measurements! If you feel that I am a criminalistic type person; so be it. Technically this is not illegal unless I try to make profit from an exact copy or copies.

There are simple ways to get around patents and trademarks though.... Maybe I could combine a few ideas from each and make one that is technically an original, but is comprised of existing designs and ideas.


Thanks for the steering arm help too!

Reading all these posts i can not help but put my 2 cents in.

I am with David on this one. If someone...whoever it may be... wants to learn how to improve the geometry of a car and learn copying something is not the way to do it. I took david's advice on my suspension mods and my car handles better than i expected. In my opinion i would just modify a stock sub frame.

I don't see anything wrong with measuring a sub for reference, or even building a copy for yourself. Hopefully you can improve on it, that would certainly be a good goal.

I would draw the line at buying something, copying it or building jigs off of it, then returning it for a refund. I wouldn't copy a part and sell them either if it were a patented or protected product. I don't like getting sued.

Have you considered getting a C4 crossmember with suspension and grafting it onto a pair of your own frame rails? Is this in your price range?
I don't know if the C5 has the same type of bolt-in crossmember that would work. I've heard the C5 has better geometry.
David

David P,

I was only being half serious about copying the subframe. hell, i wonder if Wayne Due pays a royalty to GM for using Corvette geometry in products he sells FOR PROFIT? probably not. right on your website, you have brake caliper templates that do EXACTLY the same thing as what the brackets in a Baer track setup do- and use the same parts to do it. does Baer get a royalty everytime someone downloads a caliper mounting plate template off your website? i bet not. hell, maybe he could buy a subframe, make a copy "for reference purposes", and sell the original off on ebay to recoup part of his costs? wonder if that would be doable?
not trying to get any bad blood going here, but there is "criminal intent" in a lot of what we do in our day to day enjoyment of this fine hobby.

Novaderrik,
You make some good observations.
The caliper templates I have on my page are not copies of Baer brackets but are probably similar. I do have a Guldstrand mod template on my page, but he gave it to me long long ago with no restrictions. I wouldn't feel right charging for it though.
I assume you can legally copy parts for your own use, and copy non-patented parts for sale without getting sued.
Patented parts could only be copied and sold if you changed them enough. I don't know what percent of change it would require.

I don't know if GM actually has a patent on their suspension geometry. Someone might hold a patent on a removable front suspension subframe. In that case, anyone building a removeable subframe could be successfully sued. The patent for that has probably expired by now.

Again, it was the fraudulent purchase and return part of your suggestion I was reacting to, I didn't realize you were only half serious.

Richz68,
Sorry for pushing your post off-topic.
David

[ 09-14-2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

I'm with David, too..

But will add that if I had the stuff to do it, I would get a Second Gen. S/F and set it right next to my First Gen's, S/F AND make it fit my car!!

Doing this gives you front steer, taller spindles THAT can be modified to mount 13" Vette rotors and calipers fairly easy AND at not too bad a cost...


BTW....

Now to save weight, can you use thick-walled aluminum "skinny" rectangular tubing for the S/F's main tubes and X-members to save weight vs steel or is it strong enough??? if not then use lighter members made of moly b/c it is stronger then regular 1018 steel or whatever the cheaper stuff usually is!!!!

Then move the A-arm mounts out so that the S/F is made narrower with respect to the wheels so wide rubber can be fitted!!!

Maybe I've been watching too MUCH Monster Chopper Garage?????

pdq67