Hi all

After finding this delightful web site I've spent the last month; or so educating myself on the various problems with the first generation camaro and the solutions that you all came up with. I'm quite to the first generation gm pony cars. I've beenw working on the first generation mustangs for quite sometime, and have done everything possible to those cars from adding cheap rack and pinion to springs over coil mods. Anyway, the only reason that I have not been involved with GM product is because finding a decent first gen GM pony car is quite expensive. But luck would have it I was able to pick up a 1968 firebird and 1967 camaro in a trade for half restored mustang I had been working on.

While the Camaro handles much better than the stock mustang. I find that both of these classic steering feel, handling, and braking are uninspired at best and dangerous at worst.

There tons of stuff you can do to the first generation mustangs to give them modern car ride and characteristics for a reasonable price. Sadly, I don't think the same can be said for the Camaro. However, after some research, and contacting a company who claims to be able to put c4 uppler and lower control arms on any car as well as spindles front disc brakes etc.. The company in question is featured in this month article of HOT RODDER I would like to know what you guys think.

The process seems easy enough almost bolt on to the front clip. While I haven't taken off the fender and wheel of either the firebird or camaro. I'm wondering why non of the more season members of the board having thought about this. At worst you might have to build a couple of supports.

With upper and control arms in the spindles fall into place and followed by disc brakes. The only draw back would be you might have to opt for 16 inch rims unless you shave the calipers. "Not sure if shaving the calipers would allow them to fit safely just a thought."

From what I've read on this board the main concen seems to be that the camaro is a rear steer car. I'm not sure if the corvette is a rear steer rack or not. If it is wouldn't it be just a matter of making a crossmember for it bolting it in and shorting it.

The corvette rack was made for a heavy car so I don't strength is going to be an issue.


Some Issues that may come into play are

1. big block application which which maybe put the block strength into question because of the added curb weight.

2. Bumpsteer, but I believe that you can measure the bumpsteer and make needed adustments

3. Using too many universal joints to connect steer column to rack

If the vet rack isn't an option. Could someone be kind enough to give me the precise weight of a stock camaro with a 327 and a 350. I'm going to do some research to see if I can find if GM made a rear steer rack for a car with similar curb weight.

Thank you all in advance.

Originally posted by macguyver:
There tons of stuff you can do to the first generation mustangs to give them modern car ride and characteristics for a reasonable price. Sadly, I don't think the same can be said for the Camaro.No offense intended here but you haven't done your homework if you've drawn this conlusion. I have a mix of components on my car but here's a link to a company that has put together packages depending on how mild or extreme you want to go...

http://www.globalwest.net/Camaro%20and%20Firebird%20Suspension%20stages%20fo r%201967%20thru%201981.htm

No offense taken, however you might have miss the point of my posting. If you have enough money you are only limited by your imagination. I don't plan to drop 10k down for a new frame so I can mount some corvette parts on. Or pay over a grand plus for a questionable rack and pinion which may not be strong enough. My goal is much like the moderator of this board, is to provide an alternative to an overly expensive kit. Like his mod for bigger brakes. Correct me if I'm wrong but no one has been able to come up with a rack and pinion solution that is not in a form of a kit. Since the those kit tell us where the rack came from. I'm not going to shell out 1000 for something that was made for a metro.

So you are looking for a cheap way to convert to rack and pinion steering or are you offering a cheap way to convert?

I thought I'd throw in some observations I have on subframe swaps and rack additions.

A well built power steering box comes pretty close to a rack in feel and performance.
A rack installed behind the wheels AKA "Rear Steer" runs into ground clearance, oil pan clearance, and steering shaft angle problems. The car was not designed for it.

Vette A frames are roughly the same lengths (within fiew inches) as stock first gen arms and not much better at doing their job, except they are a little lighter. While the vette suspension is maybe smoother as a whole and a little lighter, it's geometry is not as good as an early camaro if the Guldstrand mod is done.

A stock Camaro lower A frame weighs 11 lbs, maybe a vette arm weighs 8 or 10?

The vette comes out better if you add up all the very small improvements it offers over the old stuff but I think it's a small improvement in ride and steering response over a stocker with aftermarket bushings, springs, sway bar, and shocks, provided you do the Guldstrand mod and use better alignment specs.

Lots of kits abound with either vette suspension or using Mustang II variants. My only complaint of those is they don't seem to be aimed at high performance handling, just street rod crusing or drag racing. The Wayne Due and CAR are the most agressive in that area.
David

Hi David

Glad I got your attention. The current state of my of camaro is in its stock format. I believe that I'm going to have to complete rebuild the front end of the camaro. That will certainly change the handling characteristic. So, if I understand correctly you feel that the a modified camaro suspension that being lowered upper control arm will provide superior handling characteristic than a vette and that a well built quick ratio steering box comes close to the feel of a rack. Not that I'm doubting you, its more of a question of which road to invest my money instead of mix matching the wrong combo.

Clearance for the rack and angle at which the universal joint must hook up is a major problem. But, I since someone made a kit for it and it seems to be working one would think that we can go out to the bone yard and piece one together ourselves

Here's a bolt in R&P for a grand. http://www.speeddirect.com/Products/STEEROIDS/Camaro__67-_69/camaro__67-_69.html

I don't know if that equates to economical or not though...

If you check the year one web site they did a 69 Camaro by converting it to front steer and adding a rack. Front steer is the way to go but the steering shaft runs through the subframe or if you use a lot of U joints it can go over it.
The Steeroids rack kit could be duplicated using wrecking yard parts I guess. The bracket looks pretty simple but the rack hangs down below the subframe so it may get knocked off or broken.
The steering U joints are slightly beyond their maximum angles according to a guy on Pro-Touring.com forum and he stated he had to grind on the U joints to extend their range and reduce binding.
Another guy stated it would not clear his big block engine.

Believe me, I do like racks, and if there was a good way to do it easily I would be doing it. A good Saginaw PS box is a lot easier and with all the normal mods works quite well.
The Year One method is the best yet but more work than the Steeroids kit and there are sway bar interference problems requiring the bar to be relocated.

A lot depends on how fancy a car you want. Vette suspension is very pleasing to see under your Camaro and it might be a bit more smooth steering and riding over a stock clip that was rebuilt with aftermarket bushings, etc.
As far as cornering power I feel the stock subframe is up to the job if the right parts are added, but it isn't going to look as cool.

David

I previously bought one of the Steeroids R&P systems, and still have it actually. It is out of the car, and for sale if interested, drop me an e-mail (I can save you money over the $1000 purcahse price). The unit would not fit in my car with a big block, due to clearance issues with headers. I think they may have found some header configurations that may work, but at the time I was doing my swap, they did not know of any that would.

I'll have to second the comments made by David and Dennis, you can do a lot to the first gen's in terms of suspension, brakes, and steering. I have done all three, and am pretty happy with the results. In particular, you asked about the Saginaw steering box, I can tell you that a rebuilt steering system using a good reworked P/S box, in the stock configuration work extremely well. I used a unit from a company called AGR that I bought from Summit Racing, inexpensive (relative), and could not be happier with the feel and performance. I have done the Gulstrand mod, and run aftermarket (Global West) upper control arms that allow significant increase in positive caster adjustments, mine is at 6 degrees currently. I short, the system works, and I mean it works well.

I think if you do a little more research, and continue to ask the right questions, you'll find that many folks on this site can give suggestions that will get you to where you want to go. And by the way, I am in the process of building a 65 Fastback Mustang, doing similar road race type mods (rack and pinion, tubular control arms, might even go with a torque arm/Watts link setup in the rear). If my pony turns out to handle as well as the Camaro, I'll be thrilled.

Mark

macguyver,

One of the most over looked conversions that has been done and to me isn't all that hard is the Second Gen's. S/F under a First Gen. car.!!

I would put both side by side and make them fit the same!!!

You end up with front steer and a better front roll center height b/c of the taller cast spindles!

You can also get 12" disc brakes if you opt for the big car or the 1Le stuff b/c they fit.

I went with Pro-Motorsports spindle extenders to get a better front roll center. And created my "pdqCBB" big single piston caliper bracket that mounts the '69 style caliper to the 1988 Vette 13" front disc rotor!

I hear you when you say our cars are kinda unsafe b/c my wife used to have fits when I would start down-shifting at speed and standing on the brakes to get her to slow down as the as- end was bouncing around until she stopped!!!

BTW, I'm also going with reworked 1980 Seville Cad. caliper brackets to mount 1980 Camaro 11.75" rotors to my 12 bolt to better match my fronts.

pdq67

I have thought about this second gen subframe under a first gen a few times. I have not had frames to compair and i don't think i ever will. Has anyone done this/ What has to be done to put one under a first gen? I think you could get second gen complete subframes real cheap, almost give away. Anyone running one of these swaps and have any info?

Joe