In attempt to re gain some youth on a pro touring project for my 68 I have removed the frame and had it powder coated. It has been re mounted with poly bushings. My question is how does one get it as close to "perfectly alligned" as possible (or is it a crapshoot at this point)? Happy Holidays!

Look on the subframe mounting tabs on the lower part of the firewall. Next to the bushing holes there are 2 small holes for lining up the subframe. There are also 2 holes in the underside of the body that will line up with the ones in the subframe. Measure the holes and get metal dowel rods(from your local hardware store) the same size as the holes exactly. Once you have the rods in both sets of holes take a tape measure and doublecheck the distance from the tab to a location you choose on the front of the subframe(such as the mounting point for the front suspension or the front point of the subframe itself. Its best to do this in a diagonal measurement making sure one side is as close to even as the other side. Now tighten your subframe bolts and re-check.

Outstanding! Thank you. Is that info available in the assembly manual?

Im not sure Ive done so many camaros and learned so much from so many people Im not even sure where I learned it. Glad I could help!!

I've read here that you need a .610" pin to align the holes.
I've also heard the holes are not allways right compared to measuring it out.
But they should work well enough as it's what the factory used.
Measureing is the best.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I believe you are correct David.

When using the just pins on my car the diagonals were correct. However, on Joseph's the pins only got it close. When the diagonals were corrected to the values listed in the Body by Fisher manual only one pin would slip in. The weird thing is that my car had been in a pretty serious accident in the past while Joseph's is still intact.

Personally, I'd go by the Fisher dimensions.

Carl

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Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

The only method to ensure accuracy is to do diagonal measurements. Art Rasmussen had explained this when discussing subframe replacement. A search should uncover a ton of info. Given factory tolerances ( or variances!), the use of the locating holes will get you off to a good start but measurments will confirm that all is correct.

The feedback is appreciated, thank you.

Carl C, would that be the Fisher Body service manual? I have put frames on in the past using just the pin method with success but would be interested in trying to take measurements when we place the back on my brothers car. Thanks Wes

MY396,

Yes, that's the one.

If you are only mounting the frame (no engine, sheetmetal, etc.) the two of you can do the job in an hour or so. We used plumb bobs and a tape measure. Four bobs make the job a breeze. Just extend the strings from th center of the gauge hole so that the pointer is just off the ground and lay the tape flat on the ground. Doing the fore-aft adjustment can be done this way also.

Carl

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Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Another good way is to put masking tape on the ground and make a mark under the plumb bob on the tape, then measure from dot to dot.

I haven't done a Camaro yet, but measuring in an X from subframe to the rear, maybe the front anchor of the rear springs?
Carl, where did you measure from?
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

I used the points and dimensions as listed in the Fisher manual.

The two master gauge holes listed are the approx. 5/8" diam. holes located on the center firewall mount (5/8" alignment pin hole) and on the frame rail just inboard of the rear spring front eyelet. Very similar to your suggestion.

Seems I loaned my Fisher manual to somebody so I don't have the diagonal and fore-aft dimensions. Can someone please lend a hand on these?

Using the masking tape is a great tip!

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Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

I was just wondering what type of measurements, meaning where you had to place the subframe in a different spot than the alignment holes, that some of you have done to your subframes, I would think GM just dropped and popped the frames when installing it .

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69 rallye green X77 Z/28,1967 SS 396 Conv. 1974 c-10 454 swb

The plants used .610" diameter spring-loaded pins that clamped to the body mount bracket at body drop to align the subframe to the body. Primary purpose of the pins was to create a square hood opening; the Camaro and Firebird were one of the few GM designs that had the hood completely "trapped" on all four sides (most of the rest were either open at the grille [no header panel] or at the cowl [hidden wipers]), and it was essential to get a truly squared opening or the hood wouldn't fit in its "box". After body drop, with the four subframe-to-body bolts tight, a "hood squaring fixture" was dropped in place that had two pins at the rear that located in gage holes in the cowl (the ones just inboard of the vertical rear fender bolts that have a black plastic plug in them) and two pins at the front that located in gage holes in the top of the radiator support (the ones just inboard of the diagonal brace attchments). This located the radiator support crosswise and fore-aft, and the fixture had locator pads along both sides for the fender flanges. Once the fenders were shimmed and secured at the rear and secured to the header panel and radiator support at the front, the two lower radiator support-to-subframe bolts were torqued, and the fixture was removed. Hood hinges were installed next with a locating fixture, then the hood was installed to the hinges with another locating fixture. If everything was done right, the hood closed without hitting the cowl, the fenders, or the header panel. That's how we did it at 65 per hour!

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JohnZ
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

Wow, amazing John!

I just happened to talk to a friend today who did his 68 Camaro and he said it was way off!
Meaning the pin holes were not correct compared to measuring.

I just checked my Chassis service manual and it says the info is in the Body service manual which I don't have.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-30-2000).]

So let me get this right, the purpose of the drop holes are to get the front sheetmetal square for the installation of the hood, not to square the subframe to the body. I mean those of us who installed our subframes by locating with pins are not suffering any suspension woes I hope, my 69 drives like great as far as I can tell, also can you just measure the holes diagonally that you mentioned in the cowl and rad support to square everything maybe using a homemade fixture?

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69 rallye green X77 Z/28,1967 SS 396 Conv. 1974 c-10 454 swb

Can someone scan and post a drawing showing the dimensions to check. I will be installing a subframe in a couple months having just put in new floor pans. All the mounts were off and as careful as I was to measure and put them back I expect alignment trouble. The Fisher body service manual only shows to dimensions to the rear spring mount. Anyone have a drawing showing dimensions to various sheet metal points or gage holes? The post about squaring for the hood scared the heck out of me. The last thing I want to do is take it apart a bunch of times.

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1969 Camaro 350 & 1969 Impala SS 427/ 4-speed (restored)

The body drop alignment pins through the subframe brackets into the body were used to locate the subframe to the body (Fisher Body tooling used the matching pair of gage holes in the body mount bracket as the master holes to weld up the whole floorpan); the pins located the subframe to the body accurately enough that with a "square" hood opening, the radiator support lower mounts would always line up with the (oversize) holes in the front of the subframe. The easiest way to align the sheet metal when reassembling your car is to leave all the fender (and inner fender)-to radiator support bolts (and the two lower radiator support mount bolts) in place, but loose, and shift the radiator support laterally until the hood closes with even gaps on both sides, then tighten the lower radiator support mount bolts, followed by all the rest of the smaller bolts and the diagonal braces. If the subframe is located to the body with pins first and the rear four bolts tightened with the pins still in place, you shouldn't have any suspension alignment issues (like "dog-tracking").

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JohnZ
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

Danbnis, i sent you e-mail of body by fisher scan, with the frame dim's.
Dont know how to post a pic on this forum so hope this helps.

sad67,
Can you email be that scan too? after reading this thread I want to check my self out. Thank you in advance.

My email is kdorsett@wtez.net

Kevin

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68 Camaro SS - In Resto

It's on the way Kevin.

Thanks anyway SAD67 but I have have a Fisher Manual. Does anyone have dimensions to the sheet metal gage holes on the cowl? JohnZ, I know the frame should align on the .610" holes but they were off the car when I put in the floor pan. I am looking for something to double check on the body.

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1969 Camaro 350 & 1969 Impala SS 427/ 4-speed (restored)

sad67,
Thanks for the copy.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Thank You sad67!!

Kevin

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68 Camaro SS - In Resto

All the underbody and subframe checking dimensions are shown on pages 3-5 through 3-9 of the 1969 Fisher Body Service Manual. There is no source I know of that has the gage hole dimensions from the cowl to the top of the radiator support; when we built the tooling we used Master Body Layouts and General Arrangement Drawings, which were internal Engineering documents and were never published in any form. For your purposes, the hood is the best gage we have. The doors were set fore-aft to the quarters and up-down to the rockers, and the fenders were set to the doors; this should set the radiator support and header panel where they belong fore-aft, and you can shift the radiator support laterally to "square" the hood opening.

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JohnZ
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

THANKS JOHN!

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1969 Camaro 350 & 1969 Impala SS 427/ 4-speed (restored)