I'm thinking about producing a replacement subframe, similar to the old Rasmussen frame, but that holds Kyle Tucker's "Twister" components. It would be setup with new geometry, a rack and pinion, would clear an LS1, and have everything need for install. Any intrest in this sort of project?

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Gotta put my vote in for this one. Anything that furthers the cause of performance & handling for the 1st Gen's is a welcome product IMO.

I really like the idea of using the Tucker's 'purpose designed' suspension in place of the high dollar Corvette stuff. Definately a step in the right direction.
Let us know if things progress.

I would be interested. The lower the $ the better.

Tucker was talking about making a 1" longer spindle to go with his "kit" that includes a relocated A arm and new shorter A arms. I wonder if he has done this yet?

Also Teetoe, have you looked into putting a 2nd Gen subframe on a 1st Gen? I thought about doing this but, no one has the specs to see if it works. I think the only difference is the track is wider (about 2"). If the can put vette subframes on why not a 2nd Gen. Can you image all the surplus parts and cheap parts. Plus all the benefits of better handling without the high cost. Plus all the aftermarket stuff you can use.

anyway just a thought,
Tony

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

[This message has been edited by OBNXUS67 (edited 11-20-2000).]

You cant put corvette subframes on camaros. The rasmussen frame is designed to mount to a first gen, but use corvette suspension. The 2nd gen wont work because of the spindles body mounts ect. Not as easy as just bolting frames to bodys.

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Here's what i've thought of:
Custom frame with all factory mounts- Body mounts, clutch, E brake, brake lines, bumper brackets ect..
It would have all new geometry designed by Kyle Tucker, have oil pan clearence for LS1's, and be able to use the stock pieces such as A arms, spindles, sway bar ect...The best part would be that it comes with a rack and pinion, and coil over shocks. Then you could reuse all the stock stuff, until you can buy the "trick" custom pieces.
Well? Want one?

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Well it sounds good. But, there was a post about rack and pinion steering on 1st Gens. Because they are rear steers there is question about whether they can handle the strain. I guess there is different forces on a rear steer over a front. I not sure but I think Dave Pozzi knows.

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

That was about adapting rack and pinion to a stock subframe using Steeroids. I am designing a frame from scratch that would use the proper rack and pinion so there is no un due stress to the unit.

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

teetoe_jones,
It sounds good.
First Option-
The geometry problems of a firstgen could be solved by changing to a taller spindle, and then rebuilding everything else.

Second Option-
If you want rack and pinion steering then going with a new subframe would be the next step up.
Doing it by re using as many stock components as possible would be great and keep the cost down.
At the same time you could improve the engine mounting for later engines and make Big block engine mounting better too.
I'd take a good look into using a coil over spring and shock on the front like an upgraded late Corvette.

I suggest the rack should be in front of the axle like the Corvette.
When the rack is in front of the axle the steering shaft is straighter and easier to deal with.

I visited your site and your Camaro is great!
I hope mine comes out half as neat.
Regards, David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-06-2000).]

David,
Glad you got in this.

We never did figure out what the difference between a first gen subframe is and a second gen one. If its front track width, then section it the needed amount and weld back together and adjust motor mounts, etc...

Then change body mounts to fit first gen body to fit it if needed.

The second gen is already front steer and can use the big car 12" rotors and tall spindles, so brakes and spindle upgrade are stock.

Next if you want better springs with less weight, go with (I think) Vette Brakes transverse mounted fiberglass mono spring. Its fully adjustable and so-on.

Finally, the rack, if desired. We all got a look at how to bolt onea them suckers on the back, so shouldn't be any sort of deal to bolt one on the front either!!! Whatda you think??? pdq67

Teetoe_Jones,

Sorry, didn't mean to get carried away and leave you outa this. Its just that I got caught up in mouthing at David!!

Please no hassle, illwill, etc.. meant. THX. pdq67

Teetoe, how about designing a subframe that bolts into a 1st gen, but that uses 2nd gen suspension parts and with an option of rack and pinion in the front matched to the stock front steer setup? Kind of a merge of the two generations, with 1st gen mounting points and second gen geometry and parts availability.

Any thoughts on this David?

Ray

No thoughts on the above reply?

That's not really the direction I'm leaning toward. I'd like to reuse as many 1st gen parts on the first gen subframes as possible. The advantage over stock would be better geomerty, less unsprung weight, rack and pinion, coil overs, ect. I want to offer a second gen frame as well, and it would be pointless to offer a frame that only had the added benifit of rack and pinion over the stanard 2nd gen setup.
Tyler

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

I think some design goals need to be defined.
1.Cost
2.Fix geometry
3.Steering-Rack & Pinion (front steer)
4.Brakes
5.Weight
6.Tire width
7,Wheels

If low cost is desired you should either re use the stock subframe or make the kit a weld on to the stock subframe.

I think making use of as many stock components as possible would have the biggest effect on cost.
You could then have "premimum" components like tubular A frames and coil over shocks to further reduce weight and aid adjustability.
These A frames would be the same dimensions as the stock ones to provide an upgrade path for guys with stock subframes or with your upgrade subframes.
If you provide a slot or second pair of holes on the upper control arm shaft, it could be moved to the rear to increase positive caster without having to add so many shims to the rear stud which usually puts the RH upper A frame into the header tube.

If you want to do subframes to fit both generations. And clear the later engines.
I think you might want to do a coil over tube A frame setup with Rack and Pinion steering. You might get lucky and only have to provide slightly different body mounts for each and the rest can be the same.

Thinking out loud s'more, the second gen allready has front steer, so rack conversion would be fairly easy. The subframe is zig zagged to add more wheel clearance where the tires would hit when turned.
The geometry is good (as far as I have heard, don't know firsthand) and with the 1LE rotors, 12" brakes are possible.

From what I've seen of the ARD subframe is great with the Corvette components. It's just a lot of money by the time you are all done.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-04-2000).]

I agree that the rasmussen frame is a good design, but the flaws have yet to be resolved. Yet he still sells the frame, knowing the problems it has. Talking to earlier customers, they can not run a large or wide wheel because the rack placement was very poor. Wayne compensated for this by raising the pick up pionts on the frame and increasing the ride height by almost 2". I only want a frame that the average Camaro/Firebird owner can afford. If it means modifing and existing frame as Kyle does- so be it. But I'd much rather make the whole subframe purpose built, and designed to work well. Not some exotic frame that uses high dollar corvette suspension.
David, I'd love to speak with you further as to the design of this as I respect your understanding of the first gen suspension.
Tyler

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

I see a lot of discussion about the ARD subframe but have not seen any detailed discussion of the Martz subframe even though it is advertised for less than 1/2 of the ARD, has front steer rack and pinion, tubular A-arms,coil overs etc. Is there something wrong with the Martz that I don't know about? I have been giving it serious consideration for my 69 resto project but I am looking at everything. $ is a BIG factor.

I've only seen a small photo of the Martz chassis.
Not enough info to be able to comment on it.
The only part I saw that I didn't like was the rear end of the lower A frame mount was just hanging down un braced.
The second gen has the same thing from the factory. Second gen Z/28's had a bolt on small brace running forward to stabilize it some.
If that's all that is "wrong" with the Martz, I wouldn't shy away from it.
David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I'm sorry, but I can't take it any longer.
I was not going to respond to this, but my
frame was mentioned. O.K. so you build a subframe, if it cost less to build it is built CHEAP. It doesn't matter what
suspension is bolted on-it will still take a rack, 2 coil-overs,steering shaft,2 u-joints, and brake all those things....cost is
still the same. If you build a sub-frame that fits old suspension...you still have to buy all these things. Do you think a corvette front suspension, 4 control arms and 2 spindles cost more than custom made parts? I DON'T THINK SO&gt; Do you want
Mustang II? On your Camaro..even that would
not save that much. I think a good cheaper
alternative would be to build a First
Generation subframe that takes 2 gen parts, with coil over option, and a rack option. If
anybody would like a folder with some pictures of my subframe with a complete cost run down of a frame that is hand made 35+
hours each...e-mail me your name and address
and I will send you a whole sh....load of
info...Hey..let's face it---step up or
step back
Thanks Wayne

Correct me if I'm wrong. But, I think if some one would build(produce) a dropped spindle that is 1" longer than the stock 1st gen spindle, and then a redesigned A-frame mount. That this would cure a lot of ailments and a lot of people would want it. I know I would.

Tony

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

If you want the best bang for the buck, just lower the upper pickup mounts like the Guldstrand mod, OR use the Pro Motorsports extenders, use some good aftermarket bushings and new ball joints etc, and re align using Guldstrand specs.
Add some sway bars, brakes, and good tires and wheels.

I think Wayne can better comment on the benefits of his subframe.
It's like a step beyond doing mods to the stock suspension. Probably the weight savings, better steering feel, and improved geometry over a stock Camaro are the main points.

On the spindle. Yes, a 1" taller dropped spindle would solve the geometry problems and would make a first gen Camaro capable of handling as good as a second or third gen Camaro as long as you changed swaybars and tires.
David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-06-2000).]

David,

I was under the assumption that you did not want to do the Guldstrand mod and the Pro Motorsports Extenders. Going by previous posts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

------------------
Sean James
67 camaro convertible
454 - 700r4
4:10 12 bolt
69 Firebird

Mo67, you do the guldstrand mod or the spindle extender not the guldstrand and the spindle extender, from what I understand.

------------------
68 468 700R4, and here it is;
mutert23 (http://home.earthlink.net/~mutert23/)

I think the consumer movement proved a few decades ago that cost does not necessarily coorelate with value;plus value itself is subjective depending on application. On the step-up or step-back comment what we really need are actual performance results from live tests with the currently available products using bone-stock as the baseline. Use the same car,engine,tires/wheels etc. Maybe we could get one of the performance magazines to take that on as a project.

Mark,

I guess if I would of read a little closer I would have noticed the OR.



------------------
Sean James
67 camaro convertible
454 - 700r4
4:10 12 bolt
69 Firebird

[This message has been edited by mo67cam (edited 12-06-2000).]

cls,
What you are suggesting is a good idea.
You could even compare between three very similar cars.
One stock but with bushings, swaybars and tires.
One with the Guldstrand type mod and all the above.
One with an ARD subframe and or Martz.

One problem is if there is any difference in tires, shocks, or tuning of the suspension, differences would show up in handling and G forces generated that are not fairly representitive of the cars actual potential.

Also, it MIGHT be that an aftermarket subframe allows the fitting of a larger front tire than a stock one and that would be an advantage in traction. So, in testing that subframe you would have larger tires than the other cars which is probably fair as that would be the advantage of that subframe.

Years ago there was a "Shootout" article done between second gen Camaro tuners. A Herb Adams Firebird, a Guldstrand Camaro, A Maier Racing Mustang.
They also did a second article using the new 83 models.
They tested them on a drag strip, road course, autocross, and I don't remember if they tested braking and other stuff.
I think they dynoed the cars on a chassis dyno before testing to make them somewhat equal in hp.

I heard thru the grapevine that there was maybe some cheating on the hp test and a couple of cars had been detuned before they went on the dyno.
The easiest way to "cheat" on a suspension test is to have a better tire than the other guy. I've seen as much as a 5 second difference on a one minute autocross run between identical cars with the faster car having a special DOT legal autocross tire.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-06-2000).]

Wayne-
Correct me if I made any mistakes about your frame. I've been to your shop in person, and we have talked about the problems the frame still has. True? We also discussed how much it takes to produce vs. how much it is sold for. Also true? I was interested in purchasing the product from you to improve on it and sell it at a reduced price. Please correct me if I am wrong. Well i've priced out Vette parts many times and I can't see how it would be more expensive than reusing stock parts with better geometry. The nice thing about my proposal is that you upgrade to the trick stuff as you go along.
I don't want this thread to turn into a pissing match of who can build the better frame. You have one option, I'm offering another. And if you say because i build a frame that costs less it its built "cheaper" i beg to differ. i have seen the jig you have and we have discussed the assembly method. It could be improved on and made more precise, while lowering the cost and not be concidered "cheap". That is one label i wouldn't put on your frame.
Tyler

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my comments, I didn't mean to sound like a ***-
It's just that Art and I had and have many
many hours into it. and yes it has had it's
problems but it has evolved into a work of
Art and Wayne-It' hard to understand how a
piece of steel can become a part of you.
I love it and hate it at the same time.
I was recently approached to sell the jig, and I almost did. At the time thought I would love to unload it. But it is the beginning of what may come,I hope to make other products for all budgets and needs.
Thanks again Wayne

Well, here is a consumers .02...

I have the money to buy one of these subframes. I talked to Art last year about his frame. Based on posts I have seen here, there are some significant misperceptions as to the total cost of installing one on a car. I have seen someone quote $7,000 to install this subframe - when I talked to Art, we figured I could do it for a little over half of that. So first, everyone needs to understand exactly what this stuff costs before saying it is too expensive.

Second, the hurdle I couldn't jump over was that I would be replacing a significant component of my car with an aftermarket part. I would rather have a modified original than a completely new part (I liked the idea of a weld on mod kit - it's relatively easy to find a chassis fab shop around Dallas). I'm sure I'm not the only one that would feel this way.

I think there is a place for the completely new subframe. However, IMO, it's a low volume (relatively speaking) specialty item. 90% of the people out there concerned with how their 1st gen handles probably don't want to replace the front end of their car.

If I could get .85 Gs or so out of a modified stock suspension, that's fine with me. This is on par with the late 80s and early 90s Z-28s and Trans Ams.

I agree on the testing too. David, how hard is it to test a car on a skidpad? I guess the hard part would be finding a place to do it. We all could test our cars and post the results along with the modifications we have made to our cars. Taking all of that data, I bet we could come up with some guidelines and ranges of benefits for various suspension mods.

[This message has been edited by gheatly (edited 12-07-2000).]

gheatly,
Thanks for the info. I'm not up on what these subframes cost or the cost of the components. As usual, I think the cost of the little stuff is what "gets" you.

If I had just a little extra time, I'd use one in my 67.
I'm barely getting it done as is and I'm afraid if I got started on a subframe change, it would never get going.

Hey Wayne, have you got a brochure on your subframe?

I'd love to know what front and rear weights are of a Camaro that had the subframe changed.
I think lightening the front of a Camaro would have great benefits in handling.

gheatly, your Camaro without the Guldstrand mod will require running more static negative camber than a car that has had the Guldstrand mod done.

The .85 G figure is doing pretty good for a street tire. I don't have any good data on what most street tires are capable of.

The late Corvettes have not only a lower center of gravity, but a nearly 50/50 front rear weight bias, so they do more with the same tire.
I have some cornering data from my 89 IROC and it does not have a superiour weight balance or a center of gravity significantly lower than a first gen Camaro.
The IROC was cornering over 1 G with the Yokohama 008R tires we used. We used a 255/50/16 tire with compound that was special for autocross.

The 89 has it's suspension faults too, the cars ride almost on the bumpstops and brake poorly because of it.
The mcpherson strut suspension can only be set for about -3/4 degree of neg camber and when cornered hard it needs more neg camber.

The IROC suffered from lack of rear traction too. We allways ran with a full tank and spare tire to aid traction out of corners.

The fourth gen Camaros look good to me but I have heard of chassis flex problems and they are fairly softly sprung.
At least they went back to the upper and lower A frames in front.
I had to laugh at the car adds touting "Mcpherson strut suspension" some years ago.
It's really a cheaper way to build a front suspension and spreads the suspension loads out, but you never see a designed from scratch race car with it.

You can do skidpad testing to get the cars G force capability. You should time it around a 200 foot circle.
Multiply the turn RADIUS in feet by 3.14, = feet traveled.
Divide the feet traveled by seconds = velocity.
Square the velocity and divide by the radius of the turn, the result is the lateral acceleration in G's
I have a portable G force measuring recorder that I use to get acceleration, braking, and cornering G forces.
With it, I can make changes and see the G force results with no assistance from another person to time the car.
David



------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

OBNXUS67,

The Pro-M spindle extenders are about 1-15/16" tall. I got them on my car now but its not anywhere near ready to test.

Wayne and guy's, Theres enough room here for both subframes. A full-on custom like what Wayne is talking about and a second gen one for NON full-on custom use.

I personally can't afford a custom subframe, just because a my "station in life". BUT, the guy's that are higher up the ladder then me are more then welcome to them. Heck, I can enjoy and appreciate their cars just like my own.

I am not too sure after it is all said and done with that David didn't say it best when he brought up BIG tires.

It's not that hard to get the big brakes on first gen's or even use the spindle extenders for an almost two inch upper ball joint move. BUT you definitely have front tire size limits and thats why I asked once about the 315's that can be fitted all around on the new cars. You sure can't put them on a first gen.

You throw a 1" or 1-1/8" front sway bar on a first gen and you are probably maxxed out mechanically!!! Right David???

As for front/rear steer, heck they both work as long as bump steer is kept out of the picture. I'm sure that if you want to adapt a rack to either the front or the rear, you can and it will work in both locations. pdq67

pdq67,
I agree, the front steer, rear steer, thing is the stock stuff will work pretty darn good if a good power steering box is used.
The front rack is ideal.
The rear rack uses up some space below the oil pan and is a little more fragile.
I asked Kyle Tucker about it and he didn't like the angles you would have to use on the steering shaft.
There are a lot of street rods using angles like that, like 32 fords, but it's not anywhere near ideal.

Thanks for the pro motorsports figure, I'll eventually run it on my suspension program and see how it looks.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

I think we would all appreciate it if you could post the information you get from your software on the Pro Motorsports spindle extender. I'm sure you have already run the Guldstrand mod, so it would be interesting to compare the two options, even if only from a theoretical perspective.

No pressure to get it done, as we all have to work for a living. Thanks.

Hey Dave,

I would like to see the results from the Pro Motorsports spindle too. Also, what kind of results would you get if you did the Guldstrand method AND made the spindle 1" longer or a 1" spacer INSTEAD of 1 15/16" tall Pro Mo spindle?

Thanks Tony

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

I haven't done any Camaro geometry runs yet.
I had taken a bunch of measurements off my 69 Vintage car and was going to add my 67 measurements to that as the only differences are the spindle height and the upper A frame mounting location.

I lost the dam paper!
I'll have to re do all the measurements if I can't find it.
It's not only measuring from the centerline of the car out to the mounts, it's measuring from the front of the car back to each mount to get a 3D model

I tried my Lola front suspension, and the program choked!
I think the Lola suspension has some unusual measurements that make the program come up with negative numbers it isn't prepaired to handle.
The results of a computer comparison won't be a yes or no answer. More like "this could be better or this could be worse".

I forgot to mention, the Corvette autocrossers with 4 th gen Corvettes were bending the center crossmember in, so they could get more neg camber on the front.
In stock form they can't get much over 1 degree neg camber and wanted more.
there were some shims between the subframe and suspension they added too. But the officials started counting shims and disallowed any over a fixed number, so they started bending the frame.
So for autocross the stock Corvette geometry may not be perfect.
Interesting, huh?
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-08-2000).]

David,

Call Kyle up and ask him what stock '67 measurements are. I would really like to know.
If I buy a suspension Program, It will have to include stock baseline measurements for several vehicles, including heaven forbid, 5.0's. Because why remeasure the wheel each time!!! pdq67

pdq67
I might be selling my software if I buy the Perf Trends one. I don't have a price on it but like the graphics on it better than what I have now.
I don't like the Perf Trends lack of graphing of the camber curves but maybe I just havent' found it yet.
I havent seen any samples of first gen measurements.
It might be possible to pull them off the magazine article. But I'm not confident the numbers used in the article are exactly correct. I'd hate to base a cars construction on a wrong number.
They have a downloadable version to try out. http://www.performancetrends.com/

I currently have "A-Arm Suspension Geometry Pro" From Autoware, and will sell it at a discount if I buy the other software.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Guys,

The Pro-Mo spindle extender raises the top ball joint 1 15/16" so wouldn't have to make/buy a new "taller" spindle.
Thats whats neat about them, they are right at $200.00 a set. They are removable too.

To my knowledge, nobody makes a 2" taller spindle (dropped or stock wheel axle location).
David, if I had somebody to help me I would get me a plumb bob and some string along with my 4/5 foot level and tape and get you the dimensions needed. But I can't even get one a my kids to open a door for me, much less help work on my car!!! Sorry..

And nobody has yet to tell us the differences between first and second gen's steering due to one being front and other being rear. I still think that theres not that much difference between them.

Heck, figure out where the A-arm mounting points, the idler arm and the pitman arm all differ and change the first gen to accommodate and then reverse the second gen tall spindles side for side and you got it.

I'm not just mouthing because the second gen spindles fit the Chevelles (there goes that other "C" word) and they use our spindles!! GO FIGURE!! ALSO, I don't think the first gen spindles are right and left after measuring the suckers in my bedroom so I can make caliper brackets work. Right David, he,he,he..

pdq67

pdq67
I've got a second gen spindle and I can check on the fit on the first gen.
If you were to convert the first gen to front steer it might work.
The steering arm height is too high for a rear steer application.

Somewhere I saw a where a guy converted a first gen to Rack and Pinion- FRONT STEER!
I don't know if I still have the article.
I think he had to relocate the sway bar and cut a hole in the subframe to clear the steering shaft.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

Can you bend the pitman arm to gain height for use with the second gen spindles swapped backwards into a first gen application???

Or raise/tilt?? the steering gear up just to the point that it really would give headers FITS??? pdq67

Dave- You just gave me the BEST idea EVER!!!
I think i'm going to go to the local firebird/camaro salvage yard and buy a first gen frame complete and a second gen frame complete. Then start hacking and gindin' until i can get a rack to fit, so that anyone could modify it using second gen spindles. THEN we could get the fixture to modify the pickup points like Kyle does and BAM!!! Killer frame that uses front steer, custom a-arms, better geometry, and a "cheap" spindle. SO exciting. You rule.
Tyler

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Teetoe, there's not a boneyard within 500 miles of here that has even seen a first gen for at least 10-15 years. Where in vegas are they hiding them? You get 2 reactions up here. 1-The puzzeled look, some guy's just don't know what your asking about.
2- laughing hysterically, "you gotta be kidden me".
Good luck. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

------------------
Steve
67 SS 396,4-sp
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro

tetoe,
For shure the second gen should be easy to do.
And really the first gen is very similar except the lower A frames are pushed forward. and there is an extra crossmember in front of the main one.

You might be able to reverse the A frames on a first gen and swap them side for side, then make new mounts farther back to get the lower ball joints back where they belong.
Remove the front crossmember where the front mount of the A frame sits.

Then put a front rack on it and a second gen spindle, which would probably fix the camber curve.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the lengths of the first gen A frames, just the angle of the upper A frame.
I don't know where the spring pockets would wind up.
The main benefit would be the rack and pinion unit. If you went to tubular A frames and coil overs and the rack, you would have some weight savings.
Look around and see what you think.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-09-2000).]

Dave- The 2nd gen frame would be for parts only. i don't think i'd be doing any mods to it until the 1st gen one is ready. I am looking at it right now, and i can tell you that the sway bar is going somewhere else. No clue where though.
Steve- there is a place called K&L and they only have 1st and secong gen Camaros and firebirds. They have around 25-35 of em. They also have a REAL 67 Z28 unrestored. Won't give it up, so it just rots. They won't tell you over the phone that they have anything, but if you drive out with cash in hand, they'll let you look around.
Tyler

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Teetoe,

Thats what we've been mouthing about.

But we got two designs going here at the same time.

A first gen subframe that will mount the second gen tall spindles and still use the rear steer arrangement using stock a-arms and stuff.

And a first gen modified to be like the front steer second gen one and upgrading to maybe tubular a-arms, and a front rack.

Don't change the A-arms and springs on the base unit, but do offer tubular ones with spring pocket adjusters or coil-overs as an upgrade option.

Also leave the stock steering gear on the base units and upgrade to the rack type, tooo

I've never looked so is there a second gen site like ours. I ask this because maybe somebody has a site like Davids, but has a second gen and can post pictures of a stripped second gen subframe, much like as at Davids web site... pdq67

I just wanted to state that on my next camaro I build I will really be leaning toward getting a complete front sub frame. If I buy a stock car that needs all new suspension parts, disc brakes etc. I would rather just buy a complete sub frame with all that and improved geometry. I also like the new subframe because of the decrease in weight, and rack and pinion. So what ever is on the market at the time (who knows when that will be) that offers the best of these qualities at the best price, well that's what I'll buy. I'm just glad there are more options coming out all the time.

------------------
68 468 700R4, and here it is;
mutert23 (http://home.earthlink.net/~mutert23/)

MarkM,
Thanks for the comments. Some people will dig in and change individual parts. Others like you would like the whole thing in one lump.
I have a friend like that, he doesen't want to fool around with changing bushings, etc.

pdq67,
I'm going to try mine with the Guldstrand mod and stick on some bigger brakes and a landrum adjuster on a circle track spring and test it out. I'll probably do some autocrosses and get a fiew laps on Laguna Seca with it and let you know how it handles.
I'll be able to measure conering G forces and front and rear wheel weights and probably get some lap times on Laguna Seca.
Then I can compare to what others are getting out of their cars at the open track events and to the vintage race Camaros and Mustangs.
By then, I'll have run the geometry on the computer too.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

Let me know what you think of the template for mounting the big truck caliper to the stock '69 disc brake spindle and 13" Vette rotors.
I sawed it out with a jig saw in my kitchen so is kinda rough, but you will get it's fitment. It oughta get to you by tues. or wed. pdq67

You keep a jigsaw in your kitchen?
I wish I were closer I'd give you a hand with this stuff.
I checked an assembled rotor with single piston caliper and the caliper bolts clear the rotor OD by about 3/16".

I also checked the second gen spindles I have and they don't fit on the first gen ball joints, they have a wider taper in them than the firstgen has.
The small end of the hole is fine but the large end is too big. The top hole is the same deal.
I remember that GM changed most of their ball joint taper angles around 70-73 depending on the model. I wouldn't doubt the tie rod ends were different too.
I've seen sleeves in the circle track mags that might be able to correct the problem.

I don't think my idea of reversing the first gen A frames is going to pan out. I'll keep checking though.

I was throwing out old magazines today and found a good photo of the ARD subframe.
I really like the triangulation of it and it looks great.
The steering arms do look very long. I'm not familliar with the Corvette stuff enough to say much else about it.
David



------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

If you think a jigsaw in the kitchen is interesting you gotta meet a buddy of mine that I know through my local car club. For the last 5 years he's been building his car in his living room! He just finished detailing the outside of the transmission (no lie!) For some odd reason he's not married.



------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Carl,
Stacy Tucker told me at SEMA that they had car parts in their dining room. She said the room never got so much use!
She's my kind of gal!

Workmen were pouring the floor on their new shop while Kyle and Stacy were at SEMA, so things should be getting better.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I remember that! I wanted to kiss her but Kyle might not have understood. Well, actually he probably would!

You're not doing so bad for yourself considering your wife has won how many SCCA champinships, 8? In a row? Yipes!

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

David,

The circle track guys change ball joints all the time. In fact I recently talked to a guy that mentioned the use of an extended Mopar or Lincoln or something different then whats on our cars to change stuff with.

I think that I will talk to my friendly "partsman" and try to get a look at the ball joints in question. Also, I think that the 3/8" taller upper ball joint that will fit our cars is off a '70's Nova type.

Is there any roundy-round guys out there that have the straight skinny on these ball joint swaps??

If so, jump right on in.

I think that the second gen spindles can be mounted if we do a little tweeking to the idler and gear mount points. But you might have to figure what to do about relocating the sway bar??? Don't really know.

Oh, and by the way, it's colder then something to do with brass balls here in central MO, as of this morning!!! Keep warm and you guys that are where its warm, think about us.. Winter's finally hit. pdq67

Pdq,
Yes there are taller ball joints. I'm not really shure what size fits a Camaro. I've seen mention of a 3/8" taller upper ball joint, but not shure if it will fit.

There used to be a much taller upper ball joint for drag racing, it was supposed to allow the suspension to drop an extra inch for more weight transfer.
There may have been a safety problem with them.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Oh man, i'm bumming about the 2nd gen spindles. That was key to the whole "plan". also David- the lower A arms will be too much work to swap sides. the ball joint ends up in a real bad location. So here's what i've decided. I'm going to get some grid board- like kyle used, and build a jig off the body mount measurements.
Basicly i'm buying the same thing that Wayne gets for his frames, and setting it up for a basic "layout". then i will see if kyle will release the upper mount loactions, and templetes, and will go from there using stock lower a arm, & sway bar only. i'll have to come up with a spindle, and rack placement. Wish me luck.
PS- where the hell do i get "grid board"?
Tyler

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

carl,
Yeah, she's got 10 national wins and a couple of second places too.

pdq,
I think the second gen upper has the same bolt pattern as first gen so it should be easy to swap.
AFCO sells a godzilla upper that has a very long taper stud. It is about the size of a pickup truck upper though. You would have to either make a new upper arm or modify the stock one.
My 69 has upper joints like the pickup truck one and they did a very nice job of modifying the arm.
Tucker used a pontiac spindle, I think. I don't think he moved the upper pivot much. But from looking at the car. I'd say he had a lot of caster in it or maybe he welded the upper arm mounting plate back in the stock location. I moved mine rearward a bit to achieve positive caster without having to shim it so much.
David.

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

As a consumer, I'd like to see a complete subframe with modern technology offered that has quality aftermarket parts and is adaptable to just about any motor or transmission (am I dreaming?) for around $3-4K (I must be dreaming!) You see these offered for Tri-fives, why not Camaros? And while I'm having this near wet dream, has any one ever considered a full frame for the 1st Gen.? Is this even possible? When I restored my '67, I imagined shortening the height of the rear frame rails, adding mounts to them, and exending a custom frame all the way to the rear. I'll admit that I'm not even half as tehnical as most of you on this topic, but hey, maybe I'm on to something! The mere idea of a complete state of the art full frame with Hotchkis and other high quality parts. yeah, yeah, I know... I'm dreamin'!

John

This is in response to PDQ67 post about circle track guys using Mopar or Lincoln ball joints on second gen cars. Here in the Omaha
area, second gen camaros, trans ams, and firebirds dominate the street stock (Pro-Am as they are called) ranks. We frequently have to change out ball joints due to trips to the wall or tire rubbin with other cars. To make things easier we use a chrysler screw in ball joint. I'm at work and don't have the
part number available, but basically you have to weld a threaded sleeve into the A arm. This also allows you to change the position of the ball joint when you weld in the sleeve to help achieve the desired caster. Another thing we do is to cut and reweld the upper A arm mount on the frame. This is all illegal
according to the rules, but most tech guys at our track don't check, so we get away with it.

Racer#00

Thanks for the info.

I bet if the roundy-round guys, the streetrod and custom guys and the first gen guys got together we could probably have enough brains, knowledge AND experience to figure out how to do most anything to all three parts of our car interest segments!!!

Teetoe, don't give up on the second gen spindles just yet. We all might get our heads together and "skin that bad cat". Oh, I just couldn't resist the cat again. LOL!!
pdq67

I'm at home at home now and I found some Moog
part numbers. There are two different size sleeves. A 2.0 ID and a 1.825 ID. The bigger one takes Moog K727 and the smaller a Moog K719. AFCO and Speedway engineering make'em too. May not be of value but you never know!!

67 Plain Jane (Restoring!)
76 Trans Am Street Stock (For Racing!)
74 Z28 (Basket Case!)

racer #00
Thanks for the info.
I looked in one of my catalogs. There seems to be two different tapers for the stud.
Chevy is listed at 10 degrees and chrysler at 7 degrees.
And there is probably a difference in stud sizes too but I'm not shure.

There seems to be a difference in the older and newer tapers on the GM stuff. The firstgen seems to be closer to 7 degrees like the Chrysler stuff and the later 70 up GM might be 10 degrees.
I tried a first gen lower balljoint on a second gen spindle and it wiggled on the big end. The small end was fine.

Here's some other stuff.
first gen lower BJ- K5103
2.015" OD
A possible 1/2" taller BJ is K7025
It is listed at the same OD as a stock BJ.

Upper firstgen BJ- K5108

K6136 is shown as 3/8" longer? but is probably a truck size large bolt pattern upper ball joint. I'm not shure of the taper or bolt pattern but it looks like the first gen part in the photo.

Here's a link to some AFCO ball joints. http://www.afcoracing.com/products/getsubclasses.cfm?ClassID=89&CategoryID=8
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Speedway sells two different spindle reamers I think. That takes care of the ball joint stud taper that would need to be addressed when changing from a stock taper to a big car ball joint taper. pdq67

Yeah,
They make a 10 degree and a 7 degree. 7 is also used for the tie rod ends.

AFCO used to make a VERY tall upper ball joint that would fix the geometry if you didn't have the car lowered till it sits on the bump stops.
I don't see it listed anymore. It's not on their website listing or catalog.

To fit it in you would have to enlarge the upper A frame hole pattern by welding in a new plate. or go to a tubular upper arm.

OK, get ready to drool, Here's a neat spindle that is not a drop spindle but is very heavy duty and taller. Take a look. The Camaro spindle is on the left the Olds spindle is on the right.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/olds_cam_spindles.jpg
I've not mentioned this much as it is very hard to find and the Camaro steering arm doesn't fit, the hub doesn't fit, the ball joints are bigger too. It has a 12"X 1 1/4" two piece rotor/hub, just like the 69 Camaro with a 5 on 5 bolt pattern.
The steering arm looks just like the Camaro one, just bigger.
It's off a 1968 Olds Delta 88, if I remember right. And as far as I can tell that's all! Just the one year.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-14-2000).]

I will bite. What's it off of. Maybe if we get to looking hard enough we can come up with one thats comparable, but more common. You never know!!

Thats why I was sooo interested in the mid '60's rear steer big car spindles.

I was looking real close at the articles called "Knuckle Sandwich" in the June '87 and June '90 issues of Hot Rod mag. last night trying to figure out how to mount a rear steer bolt on steering arm onto the 12" disc brake cast-iron spindles. Kinda like the one in the kit that also had a special drag link. (I think it was Global Wests kit, but don't quote me).

I'm not too sure it can't be done in a fairly simple manner if you leave the front steer arm on and use it as the fulcrum point for a steering arm that would clamp around the upright of the cast-iron spindle and have the tie rod end hole where we need it. There probably is enough meat in the caliper mount casting portion to locate the tie rod end using a small bolt to help stop any twist. But not enough strength there to use it as the "anti-twist" locator. Thats why I thought of leaving the front arm on as an anchor point. pdq67

pdq,
I added the info on the spindles to my post above.

You know, if you could attach a first gen steering arm to the second gen spindle, you would have a pretty good setup.
The Seville late 70's supposidly used 12" rotors stock. I believe the late 70"s 455 firebird had 12" X 1" front rotors stock, with the proper bolt pattern too.

Global west has tall spindles in their kit, but it's $3900.
Kyle Tucker is working on new spindles which will have larger bearings and be taller to fix the geometry. It will most likely be a forging too, not cast iron. I hope it accepts bolt on caliper brackets like the first gen stuff so you can select brake sizes.

He has redone his steering box and is very happy with how it feels.

So lowering the upper A frame, or adding the pro motorsports spacer is good for now.
If you want better steering, get the box done.

Next step would be tubular upper A frames and a Tucker spindle, some way to adjust ride height.

Then a full on subframe swap like ARD. I wonder if it is still called that?

Next step is buy a new Vette! http://www.camaros.net/forum/eek.gif
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-14-2000).]

David,

If I get my hands on a 12" disc brake spindle I WILL figure out how to carve a rear steer steering arm outa a block a steel that will clamp onto the shaft of the spindle and bolt to the existing front steering arm to keep it from twisting along with a small bolt onto the caliper arm.

Heck, we can set the tie rod stud hole anywhere we want to take care of "bump steer" problems by making this piece the way we want it.

The little caliper template got me to thinking in 3-d again after many, many years of just making a living.

Teetoe, you want in on any off the wall design ideas that might acompollish Sh-t, Spelling)this ??? pdq67

Has anyone spoken with a company called Flexi Flyer? In my circle track magazines they advertise stock componets to be used in street stocks to correct geometry problems.

Spitfire44,

I got an old Flexi-Flyer catalog down stairs. I will dig it out. I doubt if it's much use because it's got to be many years old.

And thanks for the thought.... pdq67

I found the flexi-flyer web page. http://www.flexi-flyer.com/main.htm
Not much there but they are still building the site. They probably have more in their catalog.

A good spindle to look at would be the late Corvette.
It is light and is most likely taller, and has big brakes, AND it has a bolt on steering arm.
You could most likely make a new steering arm for it and might have to make or buy sleeves for the ball joints.
It might be a better deal than the 2nd gen Camaro stuff, even if it might cost more.
Plus with the bolt on steering arm, you could use it in a front steer OR rear steer configuration.
I think the 4th gen Corvette is the one to look at. The C5 has the ball joints in the spindle, not the A frame.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-15-2000).]

David,

I've been thinking about the spindle you posted. I gota feeling that its the same one on the Buick's, Olds's, Pontiac's and more then likely Cad's. But you are right about it being relatively rare because there weren't that many of the big cars sold back then. Much less still around to recycle from.

About the Vette spindle. Its also rare, but at least still buyable. GOOD IDEA!!!

I wonder if anybody here is connected to a ductile iron or cast steel foundry.

Because it shouldn't be too hard to take a 12" spindle, cut the front arm off it and modify with a rear steer arm, make a lost wax mold for it and pour one outta ductile iron or even the new SCAT cast steel used for crankshafts.

Make the raw casting so that it can be machined for either a stock wheel drop or any wheel drop wanted up to say two inches.
Now you talk about custom stuff, can you say Oh boy!!

I've talked to pattern makers and a good one can hand carve a sand mold outa the cope and drag fairly quickly if a person doesn't want to use the lost wax process. again though it IS custom!!

Say, wheres the guy that wanted ideas to make parts??? pdq67

pdq,
I think we're BS'ing everyone out of here! http://www.camaros.net/forum/tongue.gif
I have a Hollander manual but it doesn't list the big olds spindle.

Tucker and someone here is going to make a proper spindle, it's in the works.
I like the idea of one that has a bolt on caliper bracket so you have options of what size brakes you can run.

Some people want 14" or 15" factory or vintage wheels.
Like me, I have a set of mag Minilite wheels I want to run, so I can't use the 13" rotors on most kits like Baer sells.
But I'm going to have enough power and tires to need a lot of brake on the car.

I'm probably going to get 12.19" X 1.250" Coleman rotors with aluminum hats over drum brake hubs or an aluminum version of them.
Then use a Willwood superlite III caliper, either the cast or billet version.

I'll have a driver adjustable proportioning valve on the console.

The Corvette spindle might be a good choice. Lots of options there, and you probably just need to make a new steering arm.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

DFavid,

Yes, you're probably right about the BS'ing, but would really like to see something made that also wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

There are several cast dropped spindles out there for various applications and I would be more then happy to chase down who's actually pouring the metal.

If somebody wants to pursue this farther!!

The foundry can probably be found real easy by looking in an AFS membership list and doing some calling around. Probably a ductile iron or a cast steel foundry??

A person would best find out whose making them and then approach them for a quote from either a modified 12" spindle like I was BS'ing about fabricating as a model, or use a CAD program to draw a working drawing of what is desired.

It's straight forward and since the foundry is already in the business the quote should be right in there, price wise.

The spindle design wouldn't be all that hard to draw because the existing cast spindles are already designed strength wise to be stong enough. Some judicious measuring, flop the steering arm, set its bumpsteer height and leave enough metal in the spindle "shaft" so that up to a 2" drop can be made. And, when in doubt, add an extra 1/8" to a 1/4" of metal in thickness where there's a question of strength and do a couple a strength calculations on it.

And, finally, findng a machine shop to take the raw casting and turn it into a finished spindle. pdq67

Well, i have good news boys. If you remeber the Thrasher, by Mark Steilow, he had a spindle the used a corvette bearing, but had a steering arm the matched the Camaro, and had a bolt on caliper for use with many types of brake systems. Wayne Due was given the spindle as a templete, and he gave it to antoher fabricator to develop into production. So it is not far off, and I'm sure it will be reasonably priced.

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Teetoe,

Now, that's a Christmas present. Heck we won't have to reinvent the wheel so to say.

Did you ever get the 3-D points of where the suspension points were for reference?? pdq67

The spindle news sounds great.

Here's a link to the discussion on spindles.
Note "ratfink" says he's going to assist Kyle on doing a spindle.
http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum7/HTML/000661.html
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I refuse to let this go to sleep. He, He!!!

I e-mailed Pro-Motorsports, Kyle Tucker, and Superior Spindle asking some detailed questions about first gen spindles. Will post any and all returned info.
And if I have to I will spend a "dime" and call all of them personally and bend their ears.
Plus, I see where Baer Brakes has "bump-steer" correction tie-rod ends for our cars.

I'm stirring the pot again!! Happy New Year. pdq67

pdq,
The Baer kit is like a race car spacer. It has a tapered stud that a heim joint can be put over with shims on top and bottom to adjust it.
The heim is not very good for the street as it will wear out quickly and become looser than a stock tie rod end.

I E-Mailed Superoir spindle a fiew months ago and they don't have a taller spindle for the first gen.
They do have a 12" rotor spindle for the first gen that is pretty nice.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

Please run a front suspension layout modified by having the spindles made taller by adding 2" spindle extenders to both the top and the bottom and then moving the upper A-arm mount points up or down to be able to utilize the increased spindle height. The bottom a-arm needs to be held level, I assume.

I don't care about whether the spindle is strong enough to take the addition of the extenders, or steering arm bumpsteer, but rather suspension dynamics. We can make everything strong enough if it will work plus make steering arms to correct bumpsteer!!!!

Will it work???

And remember the old man that taught me how to gun refractories once told me that you can do most anything, IF YOU WANT TO.

Is this a challenge or what. He,He!!!

Lets figure this sucker out and help Wayne and Kyle make them.

Come on, and anybody else, please feel free to jump right in here too.
pdq67

Ps. I'm on A/L for the next couple a days so will have some time.

Back again. I hate that when it happens!!!

AND Teetoe, too!!! pdq67

Well as a consumer I would like to say I will buy spindles from Mark Stielow Which will be released here soon hopefully. By changing frames you also alter body mount locations etc. Changing frames will do little to help geometry why would you change frames, and keep stock a arms? Second, what type of background do you have to convince the consumer you are better than the competitors. Personally I spoke to Wayne Due and he was the most respectable, kind hearted person I have ever spoke to. He will succeed. I think taller spindles will help solve some problems but if you are going to change frames why would you keep the A arms if they are not working. Also if you need taller spindles many companies sell them why recreate something? The august 96 edition of hot rod showed where mark stielow notched factory 67 camaro a arms to clear 275x35x17 tires. If you want to go bigger go to someone who does it for a living. In my books Wayne and Art are in a league of their own. Framework is more that just cutting and fitting, it is a precise measurement. You need the knowledge and education to back it up. Matt 67 383 T-56 Currie 9 inch

David,

Did you get a chance to run any of my suggestions through your suspension simulation program?? I am really curious about this!!

Oh, my chop-saw arrived so I know what I will be doing this weekend if it stays anywhere near warm.

pdq67

0073735963,

My personal goal is to come up with a relatively inexpensive way to modify our cars. I know that there is a good percentage of car owners that can afford better then "inexpensive" but I really can't.And I am very glad they can.

For the front:
The plan is 13" Vette rotors installed on either stock drum brake spindles with a slight amount of machining of the upper bolt boss or stock disc brake spindles with a spacer for the upper bolt boss and using the drum brake hub on either one. Next is homemade Big single piston caliper brackets for '72 and up truck wide calipers. I am going to use the spindle extenders because you at present can't buy a tall forged spindle to mate all this together without heavily modifying it per David and Kyle.

I have everything but my caliper brackets fitted together in my bedroom and I have a cardboard template to make them out of 5/16" flat stock using my new chop saw. I have worked out the needed measurements cocerning the upper bolt bosses using either spindle so this is no problem to me.

For the rear:
11.75" Camaro rotors and modified Seville caliper brackets and stock Seville calipers. I need to buy calipers because I don't trust myself rebuilding the cores I have. (But, hey, I might rebuild them just to learn how, who knows). The brackets are ready to be installed so the rear is in essence done.

I will be more then happy to discuss further with anybody that wants to.

pdq67

I agree that a replacement spindle with a couple of different size disc options would fix most of the first gen's shortcomings.

There is really nothing wrong with the first gen subframe or A arms unless you want a rack and pinion and aluminum A arms.

But a halfway deal was suggested where you would use your subframe and A arms but change to a rack and fix the geometry at the same time but save money over a complete subframe.

I think to duplicate the ARD Wayne Due setup would be a waste of time because he is allready doing a good job and if there are any shortcomings I'm shure they can/will be remedied.

I think some people really think they need a rack on their Camaro.
Others really want tubular A frames.

For some it's coil over shocks, or at least easily adjustable spring height.

I think for me, if I were to go for more than a stock subframe with the Guldstrand mod and good brakes, I'd get very serious about the Wayne Due subframe.

pdq,
I got your package today, I'll check it out in a fiew days.
The bracket looks a little loose on a caliper I tried it on.

I see a lot of these brackets used on circle track cars, but on street cars the bracket folds over to horizontal and holds/guides the caliper better.

We got some like that from Speedway motors for the 47 Cadillac we did. The only thing I didn't like on them was they were thin.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

That's why I'm using 5/16" steel plate instead of 1/4" stuff, and if after I get it together and I find out 3/8" will fit I will use it instead of the 5/16" stuff to better brace the caliper like the folded over stock one supposedly does.

Otherwise, I will add extra steel in the places on the top to serve the same purpose as the fold over part does on the stock one.

pdq67

pdq67,

I've been thinking about David's Cheap Big Brakes idea also. Wouldn't the easiest way to make the bracket be to use the stock camaro bracket for the end that bolts to the spindle and another donor bracket for the end that the caliper mounts to? Just measure and cut the two so that one weld would join them and make one bracket.

I'm very interested to hear how this all works out for you.

Ray

0073735963,
I've checked with a few companies and haven't heard of anyone that makes a taller spindle for the first gen. What companies were you referring to? If Mark Stielow plans on producing one, I would definitely be interested. Do you know if it will work with stock parts or will it be necessary to use the other related parts he sells?

My feeling on mods is this: Its not necessarily what you can afford but whether the benefit justifies the cost. For my purposes, a custom subframe wouldn't be worth the expense or effort. A reasonably priced taller spindle would make a great difference for relatively little time and money. We all have other bills to pay (a whole lot of em) and even if something is affordable, in the end it comes down to bang for the buck.

pdq is using a later model 80's Corvette rotor not the early one I recomend.

The rotor and caliper will be positioned out closer to the wheel and probably a spacer or late corvette type wheel will have to be used to clear the caliper.

You could also use an aftermarket caliper like a willwood, I wouldn't use a small one like they do in the willwood kit.

I'd stay away from an aluminum racing version of the single piston caliper.
Those are made for circle track modifieds that are light weight. On a heavier Camaro they might flex too much.

There are some steel racing single piston and dual piston calipers that should work.

You probably won't notice the difference between using a stock caliper and the fancy race ones.

There are several people trying the CBB but none are completed yet.

It's really just a JL8 four wheel disc setup with a different caliper.

Using two brackets to make one is the best way but finding even one pair of brackets is hard to do.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

68SSConvt,

Thats a good idea, but you'd better be ready to weld them yourself because welders won't touch a job like that because of liability.

Also, I am using 13" Vette rotors and not the 12" JL-8 rotors. This means that the caliper brackets have to be extended 1", not 1/2" when going from stock 11" ones. This isn't easy because they aren't straight anywhere and if you get a chance to see one, you will see what I mean because that was what I orignally was going to do. I was even going to try to weld them myself and said, heck I will make my own flat stock steel brackets, instead.

I will admit that I am in a quandary as to what type of wheels to use per David's earlier mention. Thia arrangement places the outside face of the caliper so that it needs a miminum of 1/4"+ wheel rear mount face clearance to work and the wheel has to be full open from the back face to the rim at least 15.5"+.

Stockton wheel has said they can furnish a 16" wheel to fit, but it is a steel circle track type of wheel and is not fancy.

I really don't want to run 17" wheels if possible, but I've got my eye on a couple that I like.

pdq67

PS, Lets run over this again.

GM Stock Parts:

Spindles and steering arms, 13" rotors, wide calipers, but homemade brackets.

Not too shabby and definitely "CHEAP" enough.

Stielow spindle is taller and will correct 1967-69 geometry Baer brakes are needed but you can do the whole conversion for 1000-1200 dollars. With 2 piston pbr calipers. It made stielow top runner in the one lap of america. It has already been solved so why try to invent the wheel lets move on to a new topic because stielow has solved this problem. By the time you get brakes rotors a arms plate labor etc. You can duplicate quanity but not quality. Convice me you are better than stielow and I will listen.

0073735963

You still haven't got it.
$200 spindle extenders, OR Guldstrand mod for free!
$200 for (2)13" rotors,
$50 for (2)calipers,
$10 for steel for (2)caliper brackets.
Stock parts!!!

VERSUS

$1,000/1,200 Baer brakes,
$600 OR no telling what for a pair of spindles.
All non-stock parts!!

$1,600/1,800 versus $260 without the extenders, give me a break!!

And I'm not counting labor, as the only extra labor is for the brackets and since THIS IS A HOBBY, my labor is FREE!!!

IMHO. If you are bucks up buy the stuff and have somebody install it!! If you are bucks down like me, do it yourself!! And heres a way to do it. pdq67

David, I'm going to fit the slot the calipers ride in by hand and am going to shoot for .005"+/- per side. And the steel plate is now clamped to my chop-saw. Heck, it's cold enough outside here that I probably won't even have to water quench to cool it as I cut. LOL!!

Are we talking performance or are we talking piecing together something? 1000-1200 is for spindles and 2 piston pbr brakes brackets hoses and baer, and stielows reputation. Waynedue.com is selling these spindles in 4-6 weeks. I want quality, but not at the expense of performance. So tell me why I should buy something from you versus mark stielow and Baer and I will. I have yet to see your qualifications. Why pieces something together for 600 dollar when a little more could get you alot better quality.

I'm not selling anything!!

Sorry, I didn't know that you meant brakes and spindles for $1,000/1,200 for 13" front brakes.

$1,000/1,200 vs $260 is still a deal.

What I am doing is when I get this stuff together, anybody that is interested in duplicating it is welcome to find out how it is done by just asking!! That Guldstrand mod template is free too, but you gotta do the work! Right.

I'm sorry, I paid $60 to get my drum brake hubs and 12 bolt axles turned so the rotors would fit so add $30 to the $260 for a total of $290. Heck, lets add new pads and hoses, etc for an extra $100. $390 now.

David's right, the liability isn't worth making a little money, but the satisfaction of helping somebody do it themselves is great. That's why David has his website, isn't it David??

What is it? Give a man fish to eat every day or teach him how to fish, or something like that!!!

IMHO. pdq67

By the way, price Superior Spindles 12" brake setup. (I think thats the name of it).

0073735963


Sorry if we gave you the impression we started this message string.


It was started by tetoe and we kinda took it over discussing what, other than going the full route subframe swap, could be done to improve the firstgen front suspension.


pdq likes this topic and has popped it back up to the top every fiew days by posting something here to keep it from scrolling off the page and into the archives.


What I have titled the CBB (Cheap Big Brakes) and put on my web page is just info on the factory JL8 option front brakes the way GM did it only using the big GM caliper which just happens to be bigger OD and thicker than any firstgen stuff.


This would be a very cheap way to put chevy pickup sized brakes on the front of a Camaro.


Also if you are starting with drum brakes you allready have the hubs, so you just need a corvette rotor, caliper and a single piston bracket.


I have to say I autocrossed my 67 with 10" wide Goodyear slicks on the front for a fiew years and never had fade with the stock 11" X 1" rotors on the front.
I did turn the rotors purple at a high speed event on a hot day so I came pretty close!


When I get my Camaro going again I know I'll be running some laps on Laguna Seca and I'll need all the brake I can fit inside a 15" wheel for that.
The CBB should hold up pretty well even on a big block Camaro that is driven on the street.


I won't comment on the Steilow spindle because it isn't for sale yet and I haven't seen one.
I'm shure it's probably great and you should buy it.
I've heard nothing but good about Wayne Due and his posts here have reinforced my confidence in him.
Kyle and Stacy Tucker are going to come out with a spindle too, and I'm very confident it will be as good as the Steilow spindle.


I think the bucks down guys or the guys that want their Camaros to stay fairly stock looking will do the Guldstrand mod and add discs, either stock type or consider my CBB setup.


The next level might add some Baer brakes and 16" or 17" wheels. And maybe a pair of the spindles that are coming out.


Above that they might want tubular A frames and coil over shocks with a stock subframe.


The top level would be the Wayne Due subframe and or the Martz (haven't seen much about this one).
I've heard if you install a LS1 or other late engine the accessory drives will interfere with the stock subframe. That's another problem we discussed here, a new subframe would solve that.


Tetoe is considering all these things and more, looking for a niche for something in between stock and the Wayne Due setup.


He hasn't posted here in a fiew days but if you have any comments in response to what he suggests post them here and he'l see it.


pdq and I are not selling a thing.

If you've got the money and don't want a 14" or 15" wheel on your car get the steilow stuff.
Please let us know how you like them.
David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 01-05-2001).]

Amen, David.

I just sent you a post at home asking if I have done the wrong thing being so forceful regarding using stock stuff with homemade caliper brackets to give the working stiff a chance at staying up with the good stuff.

Please don't take this as any other thing except this. I got started on stuff like this years ago when I bought an old '52 Willis Hardtop for $18 and put a Stude V-8 in it for $25. The guy that sold it to me was a highschool classmates Dad, and couldn't believe I had the SOB running in two, maybe three days with the help of a couple of friends, including my buddy in the '58 Vette!!! Pdq67

http://www.waynedue.com/
Thanks for the link. I've been looking for it.
David

I'm with David and Pdq67 on CBB maybe later in life and more $$$ I would love to have the aftermarket subframe or spindles and baer brakes.


Pdq67, I don't believe your are being to forcefull with the stock stuff I get a bigger kick out of making oem stuff work. Like I did on a truck and made rear disks from front end parts. I believe ther are alot of people out there that would be interested in CBB. At least for the working man that God hasn't blessed to be a money stewart of large amounts of cash. Just my thought and don't let the subject of CBB die until we (or you) can figure it out.


------------------
Sean James
67 camaro convertible
454 - 700r4
4:10 12 bolt
69 Firebird

[This message has been edited by mo67cam (edited 01-06-2001).]

To 0073735963-
My background is as follows:
Degree in automotive technology and management
Certified welder
2 years of engineering
Professional Jaguar/Porsche Technician
Obsessed Camaro lover.

I too have spoken with Wayne Due, been to his shop, made offers to purchase it, because he has a love/hate relationship with the corvette subframe. He now farms out production of it to a former Art Morrision employee, who is also making the spindle. I've seen the spindle in person, it's nice. But how sucessful can you be when you love the money, but hate building the frame? Do you think he wants to improve the product? He has told me himself that he likes street rods more than Camaros, and he recently purchased his FIRST camaro.
What i proposed was a subframe that reused the LOWER control arms, and sway bar. I'd also like to beable to use the GM frame mounts, instead of having 1 welded mount for all engines, be it small or big block. I will have rack and pinion, Tubular control arms, coil overs, and Kyle Tuckers geometry that is used on the Twister. It will also be less $$ than a 7000 dollar complete frame from Wayne Due. Wayne has a great product, and i'm offering another. You want to pay that kind of cash because you read in a magazine that Steilow is god? Well he didn't even finish the One Lap, and there were older cobras passing him on the track. Put your money in what you want, but i still feel that my idea is a very good one, and cost vs. handling improvment will be unmatched.

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Teetoe,
I really hate to offend anybody, but I'm tired of you trashing Wayne and (it certainly seems to me) anybody else that builds good suspension parts for camaros. I have talked to Wayne many times, and if you can't tell, consider him to be a good friend. I also own one of his subframes and it is absolutely a work of art. No one else is building Waynes frames, and as far as success goes, it appears to me that he isn't going hungry waiting for people to place their orders. Certainly he must want to improve his product, as each time he finds a way to improve it he incorporates that change into it immediately. Who cares what he likes more than camaros? That doesn't mean he builds a poor product. Obviously if you were going to purchase his operation as you claim, you would have to agree. By the way, I dont know too many people who dont have a love/hate relationship with their work. As far as Steilow goes, where did you finish in the One Lap?

Wayne offered to sell to you at a very reasonable price, he even offered to build you a jig so that you could reproduce his frame. If you intend to be in business, take some advise: Trashing the competition usually means you dont have what it takes to compete.

As far as the rest of the conversation goes, do what you can afford to do to have the best car you can. It doesnt matter if you dont have cubic dollars, great rides dont necessarily have to be stamped from gold. If you can find a way to do something cheaply and that is what you want, then this site has served what I percieve to be its' purpose, bringing people who love camaros together with ideas on how to improve their cars. Sorry this post is so long, and like I said I don't want to offend anyone, My apologies if I have.

------------------
Mark Perkins
ASE Master Auto/Truck
67 RS Convertible

[This message has been edited by AUTODR (edited 01-07-2001).]

Teetoe,

Did you get my e-mail???

E-mail me at home if you did. pdq67

Mark,

Please tell us how does the subframe work for you?
Have you weighed the car front and rear or total weight?

How does the car drive and handle?
Anything you would change?
Is there a power steering option, or if manual how is it?
It would help those that are considering a subframe swap.
Thanks, David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,
As far as fit and finish goes, this thing is beautiful. My only concern is the routing of the swaybar and I have addressed this concern with Wayne and we are working together to come up with a change. As far as ride quality, unfortunately the car isnt finished. My car has power steering, but the only thing there is that you have to buy a rebuilt rack as no one that I know of currently supplies new ones. As far as the weight issue goes, I do intend to weigh my car but the figures probably wont be of much help to anyone else as we are currently installing Corvette IRS. If there is anything else I can tell you just ask.

------------------
Mark Perkins
ASE Master Auto/Truck
67 RS Convertible

Trashing on Wayne Due and Mark Stielow is wrong. They have done more for pro touring than anyone out there. Who do you think invented Pro touring? Mark Stielow designed and engineered the concept. As far as disc brakes go teeto you are running baer. I think your mad because Stielow came out with his spindles after you bought your brakes. But that alright if you save up, then you can buy his brakes and run the one lap of america, and watch as Mark Stielow passes you at 167 mph. Trying to succeed is better than never trying. I watched a show about the one lap and they said Mark Stielow did outstanding. Yes Mark Stielow has solved front camaro geometry, so any effort is useless. You cant duplicate quality. Mark Stielow does this as a hobby not for a job. Keep that in mind.

PDQ, It goes like this. Give a man a fish and he eats one night. Teach him to fish, and he eats a lifetime. http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

I have my 2nd gen spindles off the car right now. Anybody need measurements or pics? You guy's are suspension psychos!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/tongue.gif

------------------
Steve
67 SS 396,4-sp
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy (http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro)
Our Muscle Cars (http://community.webshots.com/user/steve_lynell)

Mark,
Thanks for the update. I figure it should be a big improvement and look nice too.

I'd be really tempted to get one, but I'm saving my money as I have a 69 vintage race Camaro to get running and plans for another car after that!

One thing my getting into vintage racing taught me was to appreciate the guy who barely made it to the track and seemed a bit disorganized and unprofessonal.
I used to look down my nose at those "teams" as inferior. And sure they weren't as good as the top teams - but they were there and trying!
I found out how much work and money and effort it takes just to do what I'm doing in vintage, let alone compete in a semi-pro road racing series.
My hat's off to anyone who has their car running and is out there doing something with it, weather it's show or go.
Thanks, David


------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

0073735963- Did you even read this topic?
Here is me trashing Wayne:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teetoe_Jones:

I don't want this thread to turn into a pissing match of who can build the better frame. You have one option, I'm offering another. And if you say because i build a frame that costs less it its built "cheaper" i beg to differ. i have seen the jig you have and we have discussed the assembly method. It could be improved on and made more precise, while lowering the cost and not be concidered "cheap".
And this too:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Teetoe_Jones:
Well, i have good news boys. If you remeber the Thrasher, by Mark Steilow, he had a spindle the used a corvette bearing, but had a steering arm the matched the Camaro, and had a bolt on caliper for use with many types of brake systems. Wayne Due was given the spindle as a templete, and he gave it to antoher fabricator to develop into production. So it is not far off, and I'm sure it will be reasonably priced.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have nothing personal against Wayne, and definatly not Steilow, but you seem to be under the impression that they are the only ones who can make Pro Touring products.
So Steilow made a spindle that corrects the geometry. Kyle is making one too. Does that mean that Kyles is "re-invinting the wheel" because he too has a product that will benifit Camaros? He too is a former GM suspension engineer. If someone made a pepperoni pizza, and you tried it, does that mean every other pizza is crap because it wasn't the first one? The key here is options- Maybe i'd like to make a taller spindle that can reuse stock brakes or aftermarket. Not everyone wants to run Baer. Is that also a bad idea because my name isn't in the magazines and i'm not running One Lap? Mark's spindle is AWSOME. i've seen it, it will be a great purchase, but i'm not mad because i've already got Baer brakes. You want Wayne's products? Well so do I. But not everyone can afford them, so i'd like to supply another option. Don't get so worked up over this discussion, i think you missed the focus.
To Wayne Due:
There are members on this board who feel that i dislike you and have it out for you. This is un-true, and i public apologize for any statements made that you feel were negative about you or your product. I'm still in awe of it, i just hope that mine will be as good as yours is.
Tyler



------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

I've been watching this post for awhile and here's my comment from the peanut gallery!

David regarding your comments below, I'm one of those guys!!

One thing my getting into vintage racing taught me was to appreciate the guy who barely made it to the track and seemed a bit disorganized and unprofessonal.

I used to look down my nose at those "teams" as inferior. And sure they weren't as good as the top teams - but they were there and trying!

I found out how much work and money and effort it takes just to do what I'm doing in
vintage, let alone compete in a semi-pro road racing series.

My hat's off to anyone who has their car running and is out there doing something with
it, weather it's show or go. AMEN BROTHER!!!

I think the whole point of this post is that
Teetoe wants to offer an alternative. Not everyone can afford what they see as the best! Even if you have the best, it doesn't mean you are going to have the fastest car.
I see guys come to our track with high dollar
crap and they can't even get out of there own way!! As racers, restorers, enthusiasts, we all have an obligation to research and investigate the parts we put in our cars and know that choices are out there. I personally
can not afford the best so I'll choose a part that will fit into my budget. I don't know anyone on this post personally, but rather than point fingers and make accusations, why not work together to make this sport/hobby affordable for everyone!! Just my 2 pennys
worth. I'll shut up now.


Racer#00

Right on, Racer#00 and thx, Stevo!!

I don't want anybody antagonizing anybody here just cause I can't leave this alone and keep pulling it up.

I'm in it for the da-n caliper brackets AND for any and all that are interested.

Plus, being able to improve our cars any way we can and can afford to.

And thanks for the interest guys. pdq67

In the newest issue of Super Rod (February 2001)there is an article on Stielow's Thrasher.It say's that he already sold 49 out of the 50 sets of spindles he made and the first set is on the Thrasher.I didnt even here that they were for sale yet and the article makes it seem like he is not selling them anymore.Does anyone else know anything else about them?There is also good article on Scott Whidby's 69 convertible.

I thought I saw somewhere they were an aluminum plate with a Corvette hub mounted to it and a Camaro steering arm bolted on.
but maybe it was something else.

About 10 years ago either Global West or someone was going to come up with a cast aluminum one but it never happened.
They have a second gen type spindle for a first gen kit now but it's expensive.
Nice aluminum hubs though.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I spoke to wayne due about two weeks ago he will be selling them in March. Go to waynedue.com to visit his website. In march the will be released they use a new corvette spindle with a metal plate. The setup is about 450-500 for the spindle and 600 for the brakes, with 2 piston pbr calipers. I know my 67 camaro will be the first one to get a set and I will let you guys know how they work. Stielow gave the prototype to wayne and he is making them. He made a couple of changes to improve steering geometry. Matt

Matt,
Thanks for updating us on what is happening. When you get the parts would you mind letting me know what the whole assembly weighs?
I'm just starting a list of component weights and want to compare to what a stock setup weighs.

I'd specificaly like to know what a complete knuckle assembly weighs, including caliper, rotor, hub, and steering arm. The whole unit.
Thanks, David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Hey guys I haven't been online in a couple of weeks. Its good to see you haven't given up on this topic.

Im between jobs and going back to school, needless to say I don't have the big bucks to spend on new subframe and new brakes. When I was working I spent all my money on my engine (over $3000 when I was done). So my point is if there a several people working on the same problem we will have several choices to choose from and each one will be an improvement over the other. At the same time the prices will go down. Thats the one thing this country is good for.
Then guys like me can afford to buy parts for improving the thing we love most our Camaros.

My next improvements I would like to make on my car are the suspension and brakes. So guys keep kicking ideas around. by the time you guys get the best bang for the buck I will be able to improve on mine. Next stop a paint job. Sorry if this message was to long. Thanks guys



------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

Well, i just got off the phone with Kyle Tucker, and an aftermarket subframe is not something he is comfortable with, since he is converting them on stock subframes. So that idea is out the window, and it's on to other ideas!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Stielow did'nt create the "Pro-Touring", there have been many before him. Most of which you would have noticed in the late 80's/early 90's. This is an 'old' gig that has just become popular in the past few years.

Although, gotta give credit to the guys who have made the scene what it is today, and Stielow is sitting on top. As for all of the rest, WE with our ideas and concepts are what make this sport what it is going to be.

Two cents and no change

Tom

I just can't leave well enough alone.

David, you want me ta weigh my drivers side spindle assembly with the truck big single piston caliper on it and the 13" Vette rotor all put together with my homemade caliper bracket??

I got it in my bedroom all put together less my spindle extender. pdq67

Tetoe,
Was there any reason Kyle gave you for not liking the replacement subframe idea?

pdq,
Yes please get a weight for the whole "knuckle assembly".
The spindle, steering arm, rotor, bracket, caliper.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Quoted from an email:
Tyler,

We are developing our own line of suspension products with many benefits including improved geometry. Due to liability concerns, we need to have full control over design and manufacturing of our components. Therefore, we cannot give you our suspension design to produce on an aftermarket subframe. I'm sure you can understand that this would be in conflict to our own business.

Thanks and good luck,
Kyle Tucker
Detroit Speed and Engineering, Inc.


------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Hey PDQ, just how many suspension components do you have laying around in your bedroom? Or, do you just have a matress in the garage? http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif LOL Sorry, I had to.

------------------
Steve
67 SS 396,4-sp
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy (http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro)
Our Muscle Cars (http://community.webshots.com/user/steve_lynell)

You are right, the parts are in my bedroom floor. pdq67

pdq,
How much work do you have left on your Camaro?
What stage are you at?
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

It's a mess, got to remove the sb frame mounts and put the bb frame mounts in it.

Then install my big engine. Then finish the rear disc installation as well as the fronts.
And install the master cylinder and prop. valve. Next start and drive to the muffler shop and marry the headers to my exhaust system.

I haven't even started on any cosmetics, so my car is basically, an old car thats had one poor paint job put on it and still has the old stock interior that "smells".

I need to install some tin in the floor boards as well as the lower pass. side back front fender piece. Then my car should be rust free. And this is minor.

It only has around 80,000 miles on the odometer or so on it. But, hard ones at that when it was on the road. I had the speedometer unhooked at one time when I had it the first time, so I think it's got probably 100,000 miles actually on it, but don't know for sure.

I gota find our bathroom scales to weigh the whole knuckle assembly for David, but right now don't know where our scales are because of the kids moving in and such.

Gota go to church, will chat later. GB. pdq67

pdq,
I'd love to get my 67 running this year then tackle the body work.
A lot will depend on what engine I decide to build for it.
If I get too fancy with the engine, I know it will take forever!
It would be really nice to get it running this year and get the bugs worked out by next years power tour.
It's interesting, I weighed my front knuckle assy off my 67, actually it's origonaly off a 72 Monte Carlo.
Here's the weights:
Camaro forged steel knuckle complete- 46 lbs
Second gen cast iron knuckle complete- 53 lbs

I'd also like to get a weight of a BARE front subframe if anyone has one out.
I also want front fender weight.
I have all the suspension weights, power steering, cowl hood -57lbs! stock hood is 45.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Hey dave, I've got a sub-frame up against the wall at my shop. It's stripped, just the frame. How would I go about weighing it for you? All I've got is a bathroom scale. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif
And by the way, in about a month we'll be moving down to paso robles for work. Maybe we can swing into salinas and say hi. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

------------------
Steve
67 SS 396,4-sp
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy (http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro)
Our Muscle Cars (http://community.webshots.com/user/steve_lynell)

Hey Stevo- My Uncle lives in Paso Robles! Whatch gunna be doing down there? Nice cars, i finally took a look see at the site. Got a nice shell you wanna sell me?
Tyler

------------------
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
68-LT1-T56
</A>

David,

52 pounds as an assemby, (if my cheap bathroom scales are accurate).

13" vette rotor,
turned down drum brake hub with stock type 2" longer studs and lugnuts,
forged spindle, bearings washer and nut, big truck caliper and two pads,
homemade bracket with two longer guide bolts,
long '74 Apollo steering arm,
two longer steering arm bolts, nuts and lock washers, and
top caliper bracket bolt.

I used my Apollo steering arm because I didn't undo my '67's short stock ones from my draglink. pdq67

PS, I figure the spindle extenders are about a pound each. They just aren't mounted yet.

pdq,
Thanks for the weight on your setup. 52 is not bad for the size of brakes you will have.

Steve,
It would be hard to weigh unless you could stand it on the scale somehow. Maybe you could put it nose down on the scale by placing a 2X4 across the scale, then put the frame horns on the 2x4 and stand the subframe on end.
You can subtract the 2x4 after weighing.

I'm guessing it's around 100 to 150 lbs bare, but I really don't know.
Give me a call when you come through.
I'll E-Mail you my number.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

TeeToe, railroading down in paso robles. Are you looking for a shell? I just got rid of a 68 body. If I find another I'll let ya know.

Dave, I'll do that with the frame, but I won't get to it until next weekend.

------------------
Steve
67 SS 396,4-sp
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy (http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro)
Our Muscle Cars (http://community.webshots.com/user/steve_lynell)

Yes Stevo- looking for a shell. Perferably 68, but 67 is ok too. I am not a huge fan of the 69 however. I found an entire C5 rear suspension with a 6 speed transaxle and i can't pass it up. I must build a new camaro, and it must be badass.

------------------
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
68-LT1-T56
</A>

I finally got an answer a couple a days back from Kyle Tucker on some of the questions that we've bantered around in this long wined post that I can't seem to leave alone. And here is Kyles answers.

Paul

I am sorry for the long response time to your e-mail. I am usually alot quicker on the replies. I do answer all e-mails I get, but have been behind recently due to other work.

Anyway, I know there is a real need for a "good" fix to the short first generation F-car spindle. As you have said the spindle needs to be taller, have drop (to lower the car) and have larger bearings to handle the trend in tire sizes and brakes. We have many products we are working on for future debuts. One on the list to do is a spindle, I have researched this for sometime and have learned from the recent cars I have built. The design and geometry are in place for us to do this, now just time to pull it all together.

I have not personally used the extenders but am familiar with the concept. I ran a stock model with 2" added to your lower spindle, it raises the roll center to over 4", with upper control arm geometry stock. I also lowered the outboard steer arm. First of all I believe a 4" front roll center is too high. I like to be around 3", much more than this and you can get into "jacking" effects due to the roll center migrating too high. Steering geometry would of course have to be addressed. The stock car is sensitive to bump steer at any ride height, even at the design height. When lowering the car the steer arm wants to be low and inside the wheel rim, but depending on wheel size this can be a real problem. Usually the draglink must also be modified to correct the bump steer.

Using the extenders on both upper an lower points looks worse, the roll center is even higher than above with stock suspension points elsewhere.

Thanks,

Kyle Tucker

I wrote Kyle the following questions.

Dear Kyle,

I'm Paul McConnell, aka pdq67. Proud owner of a '67 SS/RS Camaro.

Lately, we've been beating to death the first gen subframe stuff over at Team Camaro and/or Camaro Tech Forum and have been hitting on the stock spindles.

We need a taller spindle to raise our front roll center location but are having a time figuring how to do it. Apparently the 12" disc brake cast-iron second gen spindles can't be "flopped" and reversed like our short forged ones can because of the steering arm being in the wrong location. We just flop the steering arms in our case when switching from say front steer forged Chevelle spindles since our arms bolt on. And of course, they are the same spindle.

Question (1). What happens to the steering geometry if I would mount a "custom" Pro-Motorsports spindle extender on the bottom of my '67's stock short forged spindle??? It would raise the wheel spud about two inches and thus drop the car, wouldn't it?? I would need to also come up with a new steering arm that would be dropped so that any created bumpsteer would be taken care of.

Question (2) What would happen if both top and bottom 2" spindle extenders were mounted on my stock short spindle??? (Or extenders that would give optimal effect). The spindle would effectively be about four inches taller and have the wheel spud raised two inches. How would this affect the front roll center and all other frontend geometries???

I have already installed the upper Pro-Motorsports spindle extender to raise the upper ball joint in an attempt to raise my cars front roll center without doing the Guldstrand modification to my car. You know, the cut and reweld of the upper inner A-arm frame mounts about 1" lower and slightly to the rear. I didn't want to do it for two reasons, first, I don't have a welder and it's a real pain to get someone to weld them. And second, I wanted to leave my car stock.

I realize that you are now in business making a living with this stuff so will respect your desire to not answer my questions if you don't want to for free.

David Pozzi, Wayne Due and a host of others are looking at this subject intensely because we want to improve the handling of our cars. Any thoughts that you have on this would be greatly appreciated.

Happy holidays and will look forward to your reply. pdq567

What do you guys think about all of this?? pdq67

You don't think I would forget about this, do you!!! He, He!!

You don't think that I would forget about this, do you???

To: Wayne Due, How are you coming on the spindles and stuff?

To: Kyle Tucker, why did you decide to just use the stock subframe, and have you researched using the second gen's subframe, too??

To: StevoCamaro, Can you measure the front wheel hub to hub mounting width or your '72RS so we will know what the difference in track width is between the first and second gen. cars is. Please.

I'm gonna try to get the young man that I bought my 454 from to scrounge me up a junk second gen's subframe so that I can measure the difference between the two to see just exactly what is needed to install either the whole thing or just the front half under my car so I can use stock everything to improve my cars handling and braking.

I just got a note back from Fat Man Fab. that said they can't be of much help in our quest for a taller spindle. I wrote them a note because I read somewhere that they were casting a custom one outa SS for Mustang II stuff they are selling.

I haven't heard back from Original Parts Group about the same thing??? pdq67

Well well,what can i say ,nice conversation between nice and knowledge people turn out wrong direction. I know at all of us has different opinions about wich is right and wrong.But i liked to remind all of us about one thing.Think twice before you start Thrsahing some ones work.There is this old saying in my "hoods" wich i try to translate : BULLS**T STOP WHEN CHECKEREDFLAG GOES DOWN
It means at Dont comment if you havent done it! So try to create new subframe,spindles etc FIRST then you have something to talk about!! Talking bull is easy Building car to do it isnt!! Let give credit to them who has done it and even try ro make a living with it! I can sure you there arent mile long line behind anybodys speedshop counter.

Leta drive! Joni

Go to Summit racing after race day and you will see some long lines......I know what you ment just had to be said


------------------
wIll trade my girl friend for a Big Block

Joni,

What I'm trying to do is two things.

1) Try to find a forged taller spindle with bolt on steering arms that will work on early A/F/X cars. Doing so will allow fabrication of appropriate caliper brackets so that 12" and 13" rotors can be used as well as help on the poor roll center location of the front suspension!!!

2) Try to figure out how much and who would make one for us, either forged or of high-strength cast-iron/cast-steel.

A third possible goal is to inform the people that I have been contacting that HEY, there might be a market for one if someone would make it!!!

I already have a good idea that the Hot Rod mag's are peaking in on us to see what we are doing as well as running marketing info studies on us soooo that they and the industry can sell stuff we will buy so they can make MONEY!!! So what the H-LL is the problem!!!

I know I get carried away, soo what!! I'm not trying to **** anybody off, but this is where I'm coming from. Just like with my free homemade flat steel caliper bracket template that I've been giving away!!

And I tell everybody that I contact who I am and my (aka) and also that I hang out here and the Chevelle side and ask them to check out both TC's so they will get an idea of what we are doing.... pdq67

Joni,

Who's thrashing anyones work?! Yes, earlier in this post there were some heated discussions, but if you read everything on this post, I think you'll find that the whole purpose of this discussion in the first place is to find a less expensive route for WE POOR PEOPLE! You know, the ones who can't afford the 7k or 8k aftermarket sub frames.
Let alone to have a car shipped out of the USA. If you can afford the best, more power to you, just remember, it's the little guys who keep this thing alive!

Let's not start this off again in the wrong direction. Keep up the good work Paul!

------------------


Racer#00

Plain Jane 67
76 Trans Am Stock Car
74 Z28 (Basket case)

Hello Racer!!

I am sorry but i think you missunderstood me or i express my point wrong. I point was to give credit to them who deserve it,like people who have actually done something! I didnt mean to offend them who cant afford mega buck components- I am one of them,and Racer,just think those taxes what comes over the price in here... http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif I was dissopointed about the reaction of Waynes frame,like all what they have done with Art was someway WRONG?? Thats why i gave my comment.Its totally different thing how much is it or is the price right or wrong.As i said earlier i cant afford it too,but want to admire their work and pioneering for us !

Once more ,I am sorry if i offend you.

Friends ? Joni

Someone lock this thread. It has been beaten to death. I understand where evryone is coming from, I really do. At the time of the original post, i had a bitter taste in my mouth about a deal that didn't work out the way i had dreamed for months that it would. So i decided to see if i could offer some competition. Well Kyle Tucker knows that i havn't the experience needed to develop his frame into a bolt on aftermarket system. That is not a problem. I have found other things that i'm good at, and persued them. I have let my ego deflate, and have made up with Wayne (we weren't exaclty fighting mind you, i was just jealous and got over it.) Wayne is now going to be the man who builds my chassis for "50-50", since there is no one else in this business that could do it the way i want it done. I have met Wayne, flew out to his shop, and spoken with him for hours on end, and i know that he will make it in this Pro-Touring world. I have found that unless your name is Rasmussen, Due, Tucker, or Steilow, it is MUCH harder to get your foot in the door. I'm still struggling, but i won't give up my fight to release my own products as well. Thanks for the time.
Now please let this post go!!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif
Tyler

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<A HREF="http://www.pro-touring.com/featured_cars/tyler_beauregards_68_camaro/tyler_beauregard.htm" TARGET=_blank>
68-LT1-T56
</A>

Well sorry for not letting this thread go, ime still interested in the suspension part of it. All the posts with people arguing are really starting to **** me off becouse I have to read through them all to find any kind of technical information. So for the point of this post. I think that second gen ball joints will fit first gen A-arms. The upper should bolt in and the lower will need to be turned down some. I read this from an article in car craft where they put 70-81 f body spindles in a 64-72 A body.
mike

No hard feelings Joni! I don't like to NOT be friends with anyone on this site.
Everyone one this site has helped me out big time and at Tyler's request I'll quit posting after this.

------------------


Racer#00

Plain Jane 67
76 Trans Am Stock Car
74 Z28 (Basket case)

Heck, whose fighting!! I'm trying ta find or stir up interest in somebody making a tall bolt on steering arm spindle, either forged or cast for us. pdq67

Damn is all I have to say. I just read this whole post in one sitting and I am still trying to figure out why. :confused I understand the need for some parts that are currently unavailable. I dont mean to step on anybodys toes here, but sometimes you either need a nice fab shop or some serious green to get what you want. Hey Racer #00 were you in B-town last weekend? Joni are you from the U.S. originally? Later guys and gals its past my bedtime. he-he

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69 camaro 327/Th400

Hello Golopogos! (btw best nickname for awhile! http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif I am from Helsinki,Finland. Only lived in states when i was 16 as an exchange student,and after that, few trips for a vacation. Last time was Millenium in NY.
As you said its hard to understand this post complete,i know i get carried away a little... http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Golopogos,

Didn't make it down there for the show. I'm not running my car this year. The Camaro is costing to much. I will be crewchief for a friend's car this year. #84 in the Pro-am division. I think the track down your way got rid of our cars this year and are running I-stocks. At least that's what I heard.

Later!

OOPs, I wasn't supposed to post on this anymore!

------------------


Racer#00

Plain Jane 67
76 Trans Am Stock Car
74 Z28 (Basket case)