Anyone consider or install the Speed Direct Rack & Pinion steering kit? There's an article in the Dec CHP on it and it looks pretty cool - other than the $850 price tag.

------------------
Scott
'69 400SB, Richmond 5-speed; '99 HD Road King Classic
www.geocities.com/sdenning1 (http://www.geocities.com/sdenning1)

Should work well, but I have concerns over the strength of the rack. The rack they are using is not made for rear steer application, so might be too light.
If you put big tires on the front of your Camaro and brake hard repeatedly I'm not shure how it would hold up.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David,

I'm very ignorant when it comes to rack and pinion systems but find this system tempting. If the rear steer design causes compression under braking problems would similar problems occur on front steer applications due to tension under braking? Or, most likely, am I just out to lunch on this?

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Carl,
Yeah, you got it.
Most racks are made for tension use (front steer) and can be made lighter because they are pulled on when the brakes are hit.

ANY rear steer application Rack or not, needs to be beefy to prevent buckling. The stress of constantly buckling just a little over and over can crack or bend steering components.

Another thing is the outboard steering arms on a firstgen camaro are fairly short when compared to a front steer car.
This increases the load on the rack.
Added wheel offset adds to the loading.

Someone E-Mailed a past comment I made about the Steeroids rack to the maker of the kit. And sent me their response.
(lucky me)
They say it's strong enough.
I wonder what the MFR of the rack would say?

Here is a link to my past comment, I went back and toned it down after recieving the response from Steeroids. http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum7/HTML/000301.html
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
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First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer



[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-23-2000).]

I'm jumping in.

David, have you ever had the first gen subframe side by side with a '65/'66 or '67/'69 Chevelle frame (if they are different) and figured out just what it would take to make our Camaro's front steer.

And are there any Big rear steer cars out there that might have heavy enough racks on them???

I ask all this because of wanting to use the taller big car spindle and such stuff and even the second gen spindle too.

Is it possible to make a mount like Steeroids did except attach it to the front A-arm bolts and then mount the rack. Of course would probably have to have a right angle joint to run the extended steering shaft parallel to the present frame then down approx. 90 degrees to the new rack. Theres nothing to making the rack mount now that I got to eye-ball the mount design.

By the way, how good will the heim joints hold up for tie-rod ends on the street??? pdq67

OK, so it's not the hydraulic cylinder that is the suspect component but the tie rod system.

Look at the rack and pinion tie rod size vs GM and there is quite a difference. I don't belive that GM would pay more than what is necessary to get the job done and be safe.

If there is information on what kind of braking forces are involved it would be a pretty simple calculation to determine the necessary rod diameter. Braking forces, length of the spindle, length of the steering arm, length of the tie rod, and a healthy safety factor should get us pretty close.

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

I should have asked this earlier, but if this system is structurally sound, what are the benefits of it vs a well built power steering box and good steering components? Light weight? More engine compartment room? Better handling? I'd better get something substantial for that kind of money.

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

I'm just going to ramble on here and think out loud a bit.
Don't hold it against me if something below doesn't hold up in the long run.

A very rough estimate of braking loads would be the front weight of 1920lbs / 2 =960 lbs vertical load per wheel.
Add 50 lbs for braking weight transfer = 1010lbs weight on a front tire.
Let's figure you have a hot street tire for autocross and the tire coefficient of friction is 1.0.
So, 1010 lbs * 1.0 = 1010 lbs.
The tire can generate 1010 lbs of retarding force on the car.
The wheel is offset 2" out from the suspension geometry pivot point, (the books call this steering axis ground plane pivot point) and let's assume a 4" long steering arm just to make it easy.
So the load transfered to the steering arm would be half the tire's braking force, 505 lbs.
This is usually opposed by an identical force from the opposing wheel of 505 lbs.
These loads are not added together.

Now, when designing components the books say to figure a safety load factor of (couldn't find it. either 2 X or 4 X the load applied)

So, we need steering components that will not break or perminately bend if subjected to 1000 to 2000 lbs of force.

If you were just poking around in a stocker the loads would be pretty light.
If you were autocrossing, the loads would be pretty close to the 500lb load I stated.

A big block car or air cond car would be higher.

Another thing to consider is the stock steering geometry has some bumpsteer allready due to the outboard steering arms being a little too high, OR the inner ends of the tie rod ends are a little too low.
The rack kit might have clearance problems getting the inner pivot point high enough to match the factory inner tie rod height, which is allready too low.

The comment made by the Steeroids guy was the factory parts are not perfect and deflect under load. He felt that the rack was better supported by it's mounts than the factory stuff.

It may be so, but what about the strength of the outer links? They look kinda small, and the use of a heim joint on the outer ends of the rack will not last.

I had a friend with a Nissan Z car that used racing rod ends on his steering and they wore out in less than a year.
The photos I have seen show a "mohawk" type rod end on the steering link ends. Typically, these are not the strongest type.
And there should be a flanged type "top hat" washer on the bottom of the attachment bolt to keep it attached in case of a failure. The problem with rod ends is the ball can come out and the link can fall off. The washer helps keep it from doing that and is required by SCCA and other sanctioning bodies for all single shear rod end mounts.

I guess these racks are working or they wouldn't be selling them. And I like the idea of a rack and it's more positive feel, lighter weight, and more room.
Probably the rack itself is strong enough but the end links and geometry are kinda iffy.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-23-2000).]

I'll play with some of your numbers.

The other concern that I have is the design of the tie rod end. I'm a novice when it comes to car design so I read. One of my favorites is Carrol Smith. In his books he states that single shear connections are an abomination and should be eliminated at all costs. It makes a lot of sense to me given the size of the joint.

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

CarlC,
Double shear would have to be a "clevis" type arrangement. And to use them, the steering arms would have to be bent way down as David has pointed out earlier to handle bump steer problems and to put them closer to lying in a more "correct" plane. pdq67

YOU KNOW WHAT TOM LEYKIS SAYS,THERES NOTHING
LIKE A NICE RACK, I ASSUME HES TALKING ABOUT
FIRST GEN. CAMAROS, IT SEEMS LIKE ALOT OF
WORK FOR LITTLE RETURN, THEN YOU MAKE THE
OTHER MODS TO JUSTIFY THE RACK $$$ NOW I
COULD SAY HOW ABOUT A NEW SUBFAME, BUT I
KNOW THAT OUT LAY OF CASH IS NOT IN THE BUDGET FOR EVERYBODY. I MAKE A SUBFAME FOR
BOTH FIRST AND SECOND GEN. CAMAROS
AND THERE IS VARY LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
THE TWO WHEN I BUILD THEM. THE BODY MOUNTS
AND THE BUMPER MOUNTS ARE THE ONLY CHANGES
I MAKE. I THINK IT MAY BE VARY EASY TO PUT
A SECOND GEN. IN A FIRST,JUST A IDEA.

THANKS WAYNE

Wayne,
Thanks for chipping in here. The Steeroids rack may be a Corvette rack, if it is, what is your opinion of it's strength when used on a rear steer Camaro conversion?
Also, the second gen subframe swap was asked here, but no one knew if it would work.

Carl,
I attended a suspension seminar taught by Carrol Smith and some others in Sacramento years ago. It was great.
Too bad they never did another one.
I have all his books and I like his writing style.
I have a story about a prank that was played on him.
It was told to a good friend of mine by Jerry Eisert who built and ran a lot of his own indy cars.
Jerry and Carroll Smith were working at All American Racers, Dan Gurney's shop and it involves subsuituting Silicone sealer for Carroll's preperation H!
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-24-2000).]

O.k., I'm thinking you guys know somthing
I don't. But if you use a rack out of a
front steer car and put it in the back it
will steer backwards right? You could use
a rack out of say a citation or ? that is
a factory rear steer. As for its strength.
I get that asked to me about the fact I
use a mustang II on the subframe, and all I
can say is the inner and outer tie rods are
the same size on both racks. If you run a 9/16" nf tap into a corvette outer tie rod, it will thread right on the mustang rack
and it will not be loose. I'll look into
what it would take to install a second gen.
subframe onto a first,if you think some people would like to do that?
Thanks Wayne

I think Carroll is doing some consulting for ARP now. I'd love to go to one of his seminars.

I crunched a few numbers. I assumed some end conditions of the tie rods. One end is hinged but fixed axially. I assumed this to be the rack side and that the rack was of sufficient strength to support the load from a structural and hydraulic standpoint. The other (steering arm) is hinged but free to move axially.

1/2" diameter bar 12" long = 5357# before buckling.

1/2 diameter bar 16" long = 3013# before buckling.

These were calculated using a standard 30ksi steel.

I guess a 10x safety factor is a good thing!

I may be seeing a RBC rep next week. They own Heim and I'll try to pry some info out of him. Perhaps there are some better ends out there for aerospace that we are unaware of.

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Wayne,

Couldn't you flip the front-steer rack end-for-end and get a rear steer design?

------------------
Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

I forgot about the reverse steering problem.
The rack might be from a Cadillac or Pontiac FWD car, as they are rear steer left hand drive cars.
The Corvette rack could not work without some reversing, or if there was a right hand front steer version available, it could be used rear steer flipped over
.
My Lola T-70 is a similar deal, only it has right hand drive, It's rear steer and uses a left hand drive Morris Minor front steer rack, flipped over.

On the rod end deal, I think most rod ends will quickly wear out and become looser than a factory type tie rod end.

What kinda scared me on the whole rack deal, was I read reciently in Chevrolet=Racing by Van Valkenburgh, about the Corvettes (might be bigblock) racing at Sebring and breaking a center link. GM came out with a heavier center link for racing.
Thinking about it, the center link get's pushed and pulled and the loads are not all in line like a rack. I guess it would have to be a lot thicker than a rack to hold up.
I think I'm a lot less opposed to it than I was at first.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-25-2000).]

Hey Guys
Just found this site the other day, and have been reading your steering discussion with interest (I have 2 '69 Camaros). As an Aerospace engineer with lots of time playing with desert cars I would like to add my $.02 worth. First, In the analysis of steering member loads, it is VERY important to include impact loads such as encountered when hitting bumps, pot holes, etc. Although these loads are very short duration, they can be very high, and the magnatude of the spike climbs rapidly with increases in velocity (I've seen many buckled steering components in rear steer desert and dirt track cars). Although maybe not a big issue on paved track cars, it can certainly come into play on street driven vehicles. Second, a safety factor of 10x is a very good number to start with for steering components in the absence of detailed information on the loading conditions (and in fact is recommended as the standard factor for impact conditions by many engineering textbooks) All this dosn't necessarily result in the lightest design, but I'll take an extra pound or two in the steering to help insure my safety!

Welcome Bruce.

I only guesstimated the rod size. If we had better numbers (length and diameter) we could do a lot better.

I'm not wild about a 1/2" rod. It's just too flimsy from an impact and/or road damage standpoint. I would be a lot more comfortable with 9/16" or 5/8".

If there was going to be a sacraficial part what should it be? Catch 22 on this one. Bend the rod and maybe lose control or damage the rack and lose steering? Just thinking out loud.

Carl

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Click here to see see my car and hear 5-speeds. http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

Wayne,

I asked about the '66 thru '69 Chevelle frame front halves and just exactly what the difference was between their steering components locations and our early Camaro's locations.

And now I'm wondering about what rack is used in the tri-five conversion that's out now. I don't remember if it is front or rear steer, but I do seem to remember the rack coming from an '80's "larger" mid-sized car. Whatever that is--- the replacement for the Chevelle, Cutlass, Skylark, Lemans, etc...???? pdq67

Carl
I think given the choice I'd rather bend a tie rod end and maintain partial control, but I don't know how strong the rack's are, so without that info I'd probably try to make the tie rod ends as beefy as reasonably possible. I agree that 1/2 sounds to small for agressive use on anything with rear steer.
Bruce

Thanks for the input Bruce, and welcome.
The steering toe link is probably the weakest link. I wonder if it is turned down even smaller where the link connects to the rack.
I seem to remember the link on my Lola was smallest where it terminated in a ball shaped joint on the rack. If so, that's probably where it would break.
Here's a photo I found on the net of a Pantera rack, see where the link is turned down.
http://www.panteraplace.com/Tech%20Info/Drew%20Pry.jpg
Generally for racing the Camaro stuff was swapped for larger Ford big car steering joints.
The steering parts on my 69 vintage racer is almost twice as strong as a stock Camaro!
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 10-25-2000).]

I just read the article about the steeroids
rack...it doesn't matter what rack they are using as long as the dimensions are right
and its safe. Lets say your going to weld in a stock corvette subframe into your stock camaro subframe,you will find the rack is too tall. So you can either lower the rack or move the engine back. So you decide to lower the rack and now you have bump steer. The reason you
have bump steer is because the inner pivots
of the rack are no longer in the sweet spot.
Which is a imaginary line that goes from the
inner lower control arm pivot to the upper inner control arm pivot. So realisticly,
the rack gets wider as it moves down creating
bump steer. So you could sent the rack to
get narrowed and while you are at it you could have Ron Covell hammer you out a new
quarter panel. So what you do is go out to
find a rack with the dimensions that you want
that is still a safe size.Which in the case
of the example given happens to be a Mustang
II rack. So giving that consideration the
speed direct company has went out and found
a power rack that is a rear steer that fits
those dimensions, I hope. I don't see why you could not find a tie rod end that would
work instead of the rod end. If the stock steering arm is too high or low that can be
changed by either bending and reheat treating
or just make a new steering arm. If this set up has bump steer lets hope it's the safe bump steer that the factory gives us.
Thanks
Wayne

I'm not sure on the chevelle lay out,might
be worth a look. Let me do some checking.


Wayne

Thanks, Wayne.
Is the Mustang II a rear steer?

I'm not familliar with them, thought they were front steer like the pinto.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

How about cutting the racks long tie-rods and threading them for right and left hand threaded sleeve couplings and installing a pair of our favorite standard First Gen tie-rod ends on them??? If threading is a problem then make a pair of stronger ones to graft onto. It might be that some 9/16" or 3/4" drill rod O,Q,T'ed might be just the ticket. pdq67

The mustang is a front steer,just using
it to make a point on somtimes you use whats out there,to save some doe.
Thanks Wayne

pdq67
Yeah, you could probably put a camaro end on a rack. But it would put a slight bending load on the rack and might cause other problems.
If you just had a larger version of what is on there now it would be good.
How come pickup trucks don't have racks?
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

pick up trucks do have racks all the new chevy silvarodos at the dealership i work at r rack and pinion units they r beefy toyota tacomas have been running racks for a few years now the problem is there not quite as easy to repair as conventional steering for instance the new chevys rack runs through the midddle of the oil pan it is no fun to replace

pick up trucks do have racks all the new chevy silvarodos at the dealership i work at r rack and pinion units they r beefy toyota tacomas have been running racks for a few years now the problem is there not quite as easy to repair as conventional steering for instance the new chevys rack runs through the midddle of the oil pan it is no fun to replace

67 camaro,
Are the silverado's front steer? I'd guess they are.
When you think about it, someone somewhere has to build a big plant to make em'.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

chevy trucks r front steer david toyota r rear steer though

pdq67,
Was that you that asked about swapping subframes on first Gens. Possibly a 2nd Gen to get a front steer. I had asked this question before. It seems that all the demensions are the same except the front track width. It seems like there is a lot of people trying to get the perfect handling specs for the 1st Gen ie; taller spindle, lower uper A frame mounting and shortenig the Aframe. It seems you could get closer to "Ideal" by just using a front steer frame like the 2nd Gen.

I know David has talked about this. But has anyone tried it. You can use my car as a "Guiene Pig" if someone wants to try it.

Tony

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

OBNX,
Thats the idea.
It would be neat to put the 12" disk brakes off the Impala along with the taller spindles. But being front steer we would have to use a front steer subframe sectioned and such to fit our first gen cars.
I would love to have a custom subframe under my car with all the bells and whistles, but I can't afford it. Thats why I'm piecing it together the way I am. I do trust my ability to do the work so I consider everything safe to use.
One thing about doing it this way is that us do it yourselfer's will have a choice to either do it or buy custom if we got the money and thats what it really is all about!!! Choice, that is. pdq67

So pdq would a 2nd Gen fit? There are hundreds of 2nd Gen out there that people are selling the WHOLE car for nothing.

I also have great lack in the funds department to buy all these mods. Too bad I couldn't get a sponsor that wants to advertise their products by using my car.HA HA!

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

OBNX,
Yes, thats the whole idea for all this. pdq67

OBNX,
I spoke tooo soon.

The second gen will fit IF you want it to fit. It will probably have to be made to fit.

Things to check.

Track width.
Engine front/rear location, (and sideways??).
Steering column length and connection('s).
Subframe mounting points if both are cut off,(first gen left in car and second gen cut off and welded to first gen part thats still bolted to the car.

Come on guy's, help me out here, please. pdq67

Yes I really want to know too. It seems it would be easier and CHEAPER. Did I say cheaper?

Tony

------------------
obnoxious 67 camaro under construction. TH350/383 stroker w/ aluminum Eldlebroc RPM heads,cam, and carb.

OBNX,

That word "cheaper" falls into the same catagory as "more".
I know, I trip over both of them all the time.
Hopefully someone will run a bob-weight, level and a tape measure on a second gen subframe while they are polishing on it and post the data. Then we would have something to go on before jumping "blind". pdq67

Guys,
I just retuened from SEMA at Las Vegas.
I met Kyle and Stacy Tucker and saw the Twister Camaro!
Also met up with CarlC, and while talking to Kyle and Stacy, Mark Steilo walked up and said hi. I also met the pro touring website owner, I forget his name right now, quite a week!
I had lunch with DJD today.

I asked Kyle about the rear steer rack and he said he cut up a subframe trying to work it out and didn't like what was happening.
Especially with the steering shaft angles.
His opinion was "if you want a rack, do a subframe swap.
I also saw a new pickup truck bare frame on display, and saw how the rack looks in that. It's not that big a rack considering it's for a pickup truck.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 11-04-2000).]

Hey David,

Wish that I woulda been a mouse your pocket last week. HA!, HA!

Glad you had a good time. pdq67