I'm trying to fire my little 327 for the first time. I set the timing about 4 advanced. I checked with a timing light while cranking. The point gap is .019 checked with a feeler gauge (I don't have a dwell meter). I'm getting spark at all cylinders and fuel at the carb. While cranking it seems to want to start, but never quite does.

Since I'm getting fire and fuel (assuming the cam is installed correctly) what would you guys check next? I was thinking a checking the valves...what do you think?

Lets hope for the moment that the problem is much simpler. Those carberated engines were finiky. Starting a motor fresh can be particularly frustrating since you often start with a dry carb and can easily flood the motor.

First, does it try to run. Does it sputter, backfire and cough? If so, you may have the distributor 180* out. That's easy enough to fix. Remove the cap and note the position of the rotor (make sure the rotor is in there). Then lift the distributor about 3" and turn the rotor 180*. You shouldn't have to worry about being a tooth off when flipping over since the oil pump will only let you put it in exactly 180* from the original position.

Another possibility is that the timing pointer doesn't point to TDC because of a balance / pointer mismatch or a balancer that has slipped. You can use a piston stop to check the alignment. Search the archives for "piston stop" or "copper tubing" for a couple of examples.

One last thing to consider is that the engine flooded while trying to start it. If that is the case try holding the accellerator to the floor and keep it there while cranking. This will let a lot of air into the engine to help clear the flood. If it is flooded, the motor should gradually begin to fire until all 8 cylinders are clear and the motor will come to life.

This engine is a fresh rebuild with basically everything new or replaced....nothing worn. It's at TDC (used piston stop).

I tried flipping the distributor and then it backfires out the top of the carb. I used a timing light while cranking and can see that the timing is right there....no doubt. I've tried anywhere from 4 to 16 advanced, no help. I used the distributor to run my 69 350 a couple of times so I know it works. The wires are new, cap, rotor, plugs (AC Delco gapped to .035). I get spark from the coil wire and at each cylinder....It has fire, no doubt.

It has fuel from the QJet, no doubt. Can push the pedal to the floor like it's flooded, no help.


Anyway.....the only thing that I can think is that the cam is off or the valves are off. I will adjust the valves and if that doesn't do it, I'm yanking the motor. I have to anyway as the motor is leaking a little coolant out the back and the tranny is leaking oil between the tail house and man case. Another quality job that I've received for my money! graemlins/sad.gif

Oh well, I'll just have to make it right myself like I always seem to have to. You'd think that I'd learn my lesson one of these days and just do it myself instead of having someone else do this that or the other thing and then have to redo it.

Hmmmm....every plug is fouled with coolant. Ya think that might cause the engine not to run??? graemlins/clonk.gif

The block and heads were mag checked, so hopefully just the wrong gasket somewhere...

[ 10-17-2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: paulm ]

Hopefully that is all. Keep us posted.

I think that things could get ugly on this one. I am going to go home and pressurize each cylinder and see if any are leaking. If they are all OK than I'll rebolt the intake on with a new gasket and try cranking it over to see if coolant is still coming out the plug holes.

I just hope that there wasn't a bunch of coolant in the cylinders on the compression stroke. If that happened then something had to give either the rod, block or ??? I'm not sure if the starter has enough torque to break something though. I didn't notice any problems turning it over and I didn't spend very much time cranking it as I was busy this weekend.


On second thought....I think I'm pulling it out and taking it apart. With coolant everywhere and some obviously major assembly problems I want to start from the beginning and get this thing right.

I used a leak down gauge on every cylinder and couldn't find any leaking into the coolant passages using 100 PSI. What I did was loosened the rocker arms on each cylinder and then pressurized them. I found that #3 and #5 were leaking air back into the intake runner of the head. Is there any reason that a valve wouldn't seat when it's new? Could it need to break in?

I replaced the side intake gaskets and bolted everything down and filled it back up with coolant. There is no more coolant leakage while cranking, which is good. Maybe it was a bad intake gasket leaking coolant?


What to do now? Try to fire it or disassemble?

Check to see if the head bolts were torqued down all the way. Seems unlikely that an intake gasket coolent leak would get into all (if any) cylinders. Could also explain the leak between #'s 3&5.

I was thinking that coolant could have gotten into one or two cylinders and then got kicked back through the intake into the other cylinders. Does that sound impossible?

I agree paulm - coolant could have leaked into a couple cylinders and gotten passed around to the others through the intake. I doubt anything is broken. I have only known that to happen when an engine sucks in water while running. At worst, the starter would have failed to crank the motor. I imagine you are on the right track paul. Good luck with it.

OK, I'm going to try and start it again. If it don't work this time she's coming out!!

paulm,

you said you used a piston stop to find top dead center. although this is a great way to find tdc it will not tell you if #1 cyl. is about to fire. you could be one full revolution off on crank rotation (180 degs. cam rotation). the tried and true method is putting your thumb over the spark plug hole and feeling the intake and compression strokes.

after finding tdc ON THE COMPRESSION STROKE check your distributor for proper orientation.

point gap you said was at .019"...that was on the highest point on the lobe right and not on the flat????? points should be closed on the flats.

also check your plug wires. case in point i had a buddy who called me with the same problem. long story short and after catching my hair on fire (yes, i was a human match) with the carb. backfire i discovered he had wired the plugs wires to fire in order COUNTERCLOCKWISE!!!! they should fire in order clockwise!!!

#1 tower will be the one just left (as you look at the motor) of center.

also check the connections at your coil, a coil hooked up backwards will still fire but not correctly.

silly little but important things to check....do you have your engine ground straps hooked up?

firing order of plug wires correct? (clockwise)

and since you mentioned points have you replaced the condenser?

also a last thought, grab your rotor and try to turn it. there is a shear pin on the distributor shaft gear that if broken will let your rotor spin freely but still enough there to spin the rotor during cranking.

also check side to side movement of the distributor shaft. if you have worn bushings inside the distributor housing the shaft will wobble causing a variation in dwell with a points ign. system.

sounds like your close, keep at it. would be a shame to yank the motor out only to find something simple and underhood fixable was wrong.


and one last thing i've personally seen happen...with the valve covers off check to make sure after #1 cyl. valves close to fire check the next cyls. valves (#8) for proper timing. i say this because i knew a guy who reversed the crankshaft timing chain sprocket and had the alignment mark pointing toward the block. this will affect cam timing, believe me.

good luck and let us know.

Thanks for all of the input. I will double check all of that!

I pulled the intake again last night and found that the gaskets were wet from the coolant ports to 1/8" from the first runner on three ends and wet all the way past both runners on one end.

So even though I didn't get coolant into the cylinders again I think that the gasket was going to fail very soon. I checked the edges of the intake with a straight edge and it isn't warped or anything. The only thing is that the gaskets that I used were pretty thick (Mr Gasket) and it was difficult to get the bolts through the intake into the head.

The originally installed gaskets did not have any silicone around the coolant ports, so I feel pretty confident that my problem was there.

I bought a set of felpro 1204 gaskets which are thinner and used silicon around the coolant ports and then laid the gaskets in. I snugged the gasket down with some bolts and let the silicone setup. I set the intake on and checked the alignment and all of the bolts lined up fine, so I put more silicone on the gasket around the coolant ports and a bead on the front and back and bolted the manifold down.

We'll see, hopefully the gaskets/gorilla snot will seal this time.

If your plugs got wet, you might want to change them or blast them with carb cleaner while you wait for the silicone to cure. Also wouldn't be a bad idea to crank it over a few times with the plugs out to blow out any water that might get in there. That coolant will stick to the plug tips and cause them to short circuit. Wouldn't want that to cause you follow on problems after fixing the real issue. Good luck with it. Always a pleasure to help folks that aren't afraid to get their hands dirty.
graemlins/beers.gif

Yup, that's exactly what I did....I cleaned the plugs, prelubed the engine, readjusted the valves, set it at TDC, dropped in the distributor and cranked it over until I was sure that all of the cylinders were dry and installed the plugs.

Hooked the rest of the stuff up, turned the key and she turned for about half a second and fired. graemlins/thumbsup.gif I let her run for about 20 minutes and shut it down. So far no coolant or oil leaks. I think that I'll have to readjust the valves though as I never can get them set right without the engine running. graemlins/clonk.gif


Oh ya, I figured that the engine was going to fire today, since it's my B-Day!! Can't have things going badly today! :D

Happy Belated B'day! Glad to read it is running.

Adjusting valves is a messy job with the engine running. I adjust to zero lash, then an additional 1/4 turn for hydraulics.

I'm sure you are going to change oil & filter as well.

glad to here you got it running finally. now aren't you glad you didn't pull the motor?

btw my b-day was 10-20 also. the big 43.

happy b-day to you.

Ya Everett I want to change the oil/filter again to make sure that I get any other coolant that may be in there out! I had good oil pressure while prelubing and running so that's good. For whatever reason I just can't get those darn valves adjusted without the engine running. I'll try one more time before I have to make a mess.


Happy Belated B-Day!!! Yet another person who shares my B-Day (I already have two friends that have the same B-Day as me).

That sounds like a good measure of protection to me... oil is cheaper than engines lol... hey Happy Birthday paulm

I'm with you on the valves... it's so easy if you can manage to ignore the oil spayin all over the place. Pick up a can of gunk!

congrats on gettin her runnin!

I've got little clips that keep the oil from spraying, the problem that I run into is that the oil runs over the sides of the heads onto the headers or exhaust manifolds and then onto the ground!

I think that I'll make a trip down to the salvage yard and see if they have an extra cover.

Yeah thats what I did.. got a set of junker covers and glued a gasket to them cut a big rectangle in the top where the adjusters are and bolt them down.. works like a charm!! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

If you decide to try the 0 back-lash + 1/4 method, be aware that each cylinder must be on TDC. Actually, there is a shortcut method to this, but the TDC method is fool-proof. I hope I'm not insulting you with this, but I've seen plenty of folks set the valve lash on all 16 valves without rotating the engine off of TDC#1.

You're not insulting me Dave. I did rotate the engine although sometimes it's difficult to get it to stop exactly where you want it to while bumping the starter on a new engine.

You have probably already solved your problem but here are a couple things that I have found over the years. I have found that after market Cam shafts are 180 deg.out on there marks,so you have to rotate the crank one turn before you install the distribitor,(with Factory cams you can just drop the distribitor right in) Also be sure you install ALL intake bolts Fingure tight before you put a wrench on any of them, then take them down equily.