I have a 1969 z-11 pace car with a 396 engine coupled to a TH350 transmissions. I thought only TH400's were matched to the big blocks. Is it possible I have a mismatched/altered engine or tranny?

you are correct, only TH400 transmissions came behind automatic equipped big blocks. And since these required a completely different cross member that a TH 350 transmission, they can't get in there by accident. You have one of two possibilities, it originally had a TH400 and someone swapped it for a TH350 for some unknown reason, or the car was originally a small block car and someone replaced it with a 396. I personally see no reason why someone would do the first unless they had both a crossmember and transmission laying around the garage, making the second much more likely.

Using a TH350 with a big block will cause all kinds of driveline vibration because big blocks are shifted over towards the passenger side of the car about an inch or two, and the TH400 crossmember was shifted over as well. The TH350 crossmember is right in the center of the car and will result in the engine and transmission being at an angle in relation to the driveshaft and rear axle.

Do you know if the engine is original to the car? What kind of engine codes are present on the front passenger side engine pad behind the alternator.



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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

Thanks, Mark. No I do not think the 396 is original that's why I was asking. I think the transmission is original but I don't have the protect-o-plate to have know the small block was the original engine. Now, I guess, I do. Do you know if pace cars had column shifts or were all of them ordered with console floor shifters?

The Z11 option by itself was little more than white and orange paint, ZL2 hood, and D80 spoilers. It required the RS option package, and the SS performance options, either the L48 or one of the three 396 engine options. Everything else was an extra option, including the console.

there was a list of recommended options that included the console, gauge package, tilt wheel, deluxe seat belts and a few others.

I find a vast majority of the pace car replicas are small blocks that are all similarly equipped. They have all of the above options, except that only about 50 percent seem to have the guage package. There are a couple that have a 4 spd floor shifter without a console, and there are some with a column shift automatic. I can't imagine that there are anymore than 10 of each in existance. Note that that is a wild guess at numbers so don't quote them to anyone. I have never seen either combination in person but have seen photos of both.

Is this car a Norwood car? and it does have the Z11 code on the Trim Tag? Pace cars were only made between date codes of 02B and 05C in 1969.

If the car was a small block the heater tubes penetrating the fire wall will be in near the engine, big blocks have the tubes out next to the fender. Unless the heater parts were replaced as well. There is also a difference in the inside heater box between big block and small block cars, but I don't know if the difference is visible or not.

What kind of options and equipment is on the car?




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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

It has the correct cowl tag sporting the z-11 notification and norwood plant id. I have never thought to check the heater hose location. It was completly rebulit but was bought two owners ago without an engine.

Inside it has a floor shift but orginally it had a column shift; this too being a modification from orgin. The guy I bought it from swears it was orginally a big block from the location of the motor mounts and he found a "correct" 396-325hp to put in the car. The restoration is great but the engine and the transmission bother me as I can't seem to determine which engine the car orginally had. Is there data anywhere that matches from GM what specs the vin numbers were built with. I am thinking without this I just cannot be sure. The cowl tag, as you know, only indicates the V-8.

Couldn't you tell if it was a big block car by the front coil spring tags, if they were still intact? Just a thought......KZ

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John D. Smith
69' SS/396
www.geocities.com/kz1000ltd (http://www.geocities.com/kz1000ltd)

The Vin number, not the trim tag indicates V-8 or L-6, All 69 camaros have 124379 on the trim tag.

If it is an early car, say 02B to 03A in may have been at the race and had it's VIN recorded. I've got a list out of a 1993 USCC magazine of about 60 cars that were at the race and the motor and transmission info recorded.

I guess how easy it is to tell what the original engine was all depends on how good a job the guy did installing the engine and changing the components that are different.

Some non engine things that I can think of off the top of my head are, TH400s had an electronic kickdown instead of the cable that attaches to the carb linkage on a TH350 There was a switch on the back of the carb linkage that energized this solenoid. The wiring for that should still be inplace along the firewall.

The center link in the steering system is different on a big block than a small block, its heavier, but you would need another to compare it to as there are no casting marks on it.

Both big blocks and small block SS's have a brake pressure reducing valve on the frame rail under the drivers seat, so that won't help.

L34/L35 big blocks have 2 fuel lines, a 3/8" supply and a 5/16" return as did the L-48 small block. The L78/L89 big blocks had a single 3/8" fuel line, as did all other V-8 small blocks. L-6's had a single 5/16" fuel line

The TH400 crossmember does not bolt to the same holes as a TH350, or a manual transmission crossmember. The distance between the bolt holes is smaller on a TH400 crossmember by maybe 3/4". so if your sub frame doesn't have 3 sets of mounting holes then the car never had a TH350 crossmember. (I need to go check my frame rails, I know this is true for a 67 camaro since the big blocks were a late year addition to the option list. GM may have revised all of the subframes to have 3 sets of holes in 68)

I'll need to look in the assembly manual for some of the other differences.

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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

Is the floor pan and drive shaft tunnel different between big and small block cars? If the engine is offset in a big block car and not in a small block car, wouldn't this require a different floor and drive shaft tunnel? I know my SS396 engine is offset 1/2 inch to the pass side (one inch difference if measured side to side).


[This message has been edited by big gear head (edited 10-31-2000).]

Checking the 1969 Camaro Assembly and Chasis manual I don't see any sheet metal difference. I see the offset of a big block vs. small block on the rear transmission mount -- mainly the mount difference between the TH 350 and TH 400, but even if the smaller transmission lined up with the mount for a big block the drive shaft angle would still be offset due to the back being secured to the rear end.

I am coming to the conclusion that without the protect o plate, I cannot tie my VIN# to the orginal engine size.

My VIN# :124679N610826

My trim tag :

ST69 12467NOR271230BDY
TR720 50A PNT
02D Z 11

Do you have a manual or automatic transmission with your 396? What rear end gear size do you have?

ml

Originaly it was a 325 or 350 hp 396, 4 speed, with a 3.73 posi 12 bolt. Now it's a 425 hp 427, 4 speed, with a 4.11 detroit locker in a 9" Ford. The 1/2 inch offset goes through the whole car. When I built the 9" I had to offset the pinion like the original rear end to keep the drive shaft in the center of the tunnel.

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'69 RS/SS396 pro street
427/4spd/9"

big gear head, I think you are wrong about the offset at the rear end. If this were so, there would have to be BB rear ends and SB rear ends and a way to tell the difference between the two. As we all know, BB and SB cars used the exact same rear ends.

The fact that the tranny and rear end are offset does not matter as long as the tranny output shaft and the rear end pinion are parallel to each other.

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Hugger Orange & white 69 Camaro with supercharged 350, Tremec TKO, and 3.73 12-bolt

See my website updated 9/01/00 at:

www.geocities.com/gheatly (http://www.geocities.com/gheatly)

If there is one thing I know, it's rear ends. I've built hundreds of rear ends and several pro street cars in the last 19 years. The pinion in the 12 bolt that came out of my RS/SS396/4 speed/X22 was offset 1/2 inch to the pass. side of the car. That would be 1 inch total difference if you measured from the center of the pinion to each end of the housing. That's the same amount as the engine offset. I had to offset the drop in the ladder bar cross member the same amount so it would line up with the drive shaft tunnel. When I posted the question about the floor pans being different I did it as a joke because I'm pretty sure that they are the same. I know the rear ends are the same. I think someone made a mistake when they said that the small block was centered in the car. I believe they are all 1/2 inch off center. I don't have a small block car here with a stock floor in it to measure, but I'm sure someone else out there does. I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

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'69 RS/SS396 pro street
427/4spd/9"