I have started installing my 454 in my camaro and i am going to use chris alsons. TH400 crossmemeber and their billet engine mounts... Now i know where the transmission will sit but i do not know how high or the side to side position of the engine should be and since i only have the smallblock frame brackets i cant use them as an reference... can someone help me get the correct insallation position of a bigblock in an original 68 camaros frame.

I have the engineblock mounted to the transmission so the whole package is siting in the correct fron to rear position (good start)

Measurenments that would help me is either the heights of the bigblock frame brackets (frame to mounting bolt center on both sides), Or the left2right & top2bottom center of the crank between the framerails and from the engine crossmember.

I will use hookes supercomp. headers with 2" primarys and a 3.5" collectors so the space between the steering-box and the headers seems very tight.

Need this info badly and as fast as possible since im kind of stuck here and can not continue until i have the block in the right place.

Here i have a picture of the previous SB installation just so that you know wich frame crossmemeber i am measuring the top-bottom from. http://www.soulcollector.nu/jpg/BeforeRestoration/under.jpg

Thanks.
Jonas Wikstrom, Sweden

those billet mounts were designed for they bolt in subframe, and are totally different than a factory type setup. why not just get the proper mounts and be done with it? otherwise, what you should do is get the headers installed on the engine, and move it to where it clears everything and all the angles are right, then put the mounts there. what you will end up with would be pretty close to where the factory big block mounts would put you, so why not just spend a little money up front and save a lot of screwing around later? GM did the engineering 36 years ago, so why try to re-engineer it?

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1971 Nova(looks like 69 camaro from underneath!)
355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16X8" IROC wheels. 12" Corvette brakes on the way.
see pics here http://community.webshots.com/user/novaderrik

Because i will run a 800hp engine and the standard mounts would say godbye in a heartbeat... and i dont have the frame brackets and since i live in sweden and and there is no place to get them here i have to make them myself.. i tried order them from classic industries but their partnumbers was all messed up so i could not order those.. and when i told them that the numbers were wrong they just replyed with the same number... idiots..

Now when i have bought theses super-expensive engine mounts from Chassisworks and i intend to use them http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

...So i guess i still need some measurements...the height of the framebrackets would help me a lot.

I have taken some pictures of how the project looks.

Here's the entire package: http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1545.jpg

Why are the headers longer on the passenger side ? as you can see in this picture the flange is into the transmission crossmember... will i have to cut the collector and move the flange? http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1547.jpg http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1557.jpg

Here you can see how close the tubes are to the steeringbox: http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1549.jpg http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1555.jpg

Here's the installed alston mounts: http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1552.jpg http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1554.jpg

Here's a view from the front so you can se how much i have to move the engine to clear the steeringbox...despite this i had to lift the block to get the header in there and i don't know if it will be easier to get them in from underneath. http://www.hyperwerks.se/pa/camaro/img_1556.jpg

Now as far as i have this i still haven't moved the tranmission the 1" to the passenger side. If i do so the header collector will end up even deeper into the trans x-memeber. Hmmmm.

Any good idéas ?

The factory big block frame pads were taller on the drivers side than the passenger side; that may be why your passenger side header is too high as the header company would have built them for the factory mounts. Raising the drivers side slightly like the factory did would lower the passenger side header.

I have over 1000 hp with my big block and have used both stock interlocking rubber mounts, and currently Energy Suspension urethane mounts, neither of which can break as they interlock. The easiest thing would be to get ahold of Year One, who has the correct frame pads for the big blocks, and use those along with a good urethane mount and eliminate these issues. The Chassisworks stuff does look good though.

I have the frame pads in my garage as I am using a Wayne Due front end now. I can measure them if you like to give you the different heights. By the way, when I did the 2" Hooker Super Comps, that corner bolt on the steering box cover had to be ground, it was that close. It did clear though.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

I have posted the differences between the BB frame mounts as well as the runbber mouynt dimensions if you want to do a search. It may take a while to find the ionformation b/c I chat A LOT!!!

And I suspect the headers stick out farther from the bellhousing flange on one side of the engine more then the other because of the block "V" stagger and maybe a schosh more to try to equalize tube lengths!

Sorry you don't have good access to our aftermarket parts b/c we can get all sorts of stuff for a lot of different make and year cats, not just Chevy's.. pdq67

These are the heights of a set of big block brackets in a car I have.
1. Driver's side is 2.5 inches from base to the top of the bracket. It measures 1.75 inches from base to center of the bracket bolt hole. It is GM part # 3950113.
2. The passenger side bracket measures 2.0 inches from the base to the top of the bracket. It measures 1&3/8 inches from the base to the center of the bracket bolt hole.This is GM part # 3950114.
These measurements were taken in the car but should be accurate.

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Bob
Garnet Red 69/SS396/TH400/355 Posi ( 454 now)
94 HD Dyna Wideglide

phel69: Thanks a lot...this gives me a quite accurate hint anyway.

As you can see from my pictures the headers do fit but i have about 1/4" between the frame on the passenger side and a bit less between the header and stearing box. And the oilpan clears the engine crossmemeber with 1/4"... tight and low i would say http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Finaly...one more question:

My transmission crossmember have the holes centerd but if i move the tranny to the passenger side the headers will hit the frame...is it possible to have the engine mounted in this veeeery slightly twisted angle or does it have to sit 100% straight...If not what might cause problems ?

Cheers !

Check my suspension page below, I have a motor mount page with dimensions of motor mounts, but not a complete list of frame bracket heights.
The BB clutch cross shaft or "Z bar" is a half inch longer than a small block, so maybe the BB is a half inch to the pass side. I think the trans is a full inch to the pass side though.
I don't see any problem twisting the engine a little, but very much might cause a driveshaft vibration.
If you go here: http://www.classicindustries.com/index.html
And then select "Restoration Tips" from the menu, look at the bottom for BB swap info.
They state there the BB is also positioned slightly forward to clear the firewall.

phel69 thanks for the measurements, I've included it on my mount page. Hope it's OK with you.
I'm trying to do a better job in giving credit to people who provide info I put on my page.
Thanks, David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 11-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 11-27-2002).]

Thanks David !

The Engine sits about 16mm (0.650") to the passenger side and the transmission has been moved with it as far as it goes in the oval transmission mount holes. about 8mm (0.315") So it's not that much of an angle, and as it looks now the engine seems to be quite comfortable in that position http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

I have heard that you should have som angle to the driveshaft to avoid the jumping-rope syndrome that occurs when the driveshaft is a perfect zero degree line between the transmission and the piniongear on the rearaxle...is this true ?

I'll make a new 4" aluminum driveshaft when all the stuff has been installed...currently i'm working on my adjustable swaybar and the watts-linkage.

Heres a link to my chassi page on my website: http://www.soulcollector.nu/chassis.html

Yes, I think a couple have said that they only experienced minor problems with mounting a BB on SB stuff which is basically what you are doing at the rear location...I take that as basically, no big deal and would continue as I am going to do when I drop my 496 in my car using BB stuff in front and SB X-member in rear. pdq67

I have the transmission bolted in with a solid steelmount so will probably be easier to install with a polyurethane or rubber mount.

Any idea how much the engine will shake/move around when it's pushed to the limit in the polyurethane motor mounts ?

When viewed from the top of the car, if you drew a straight line from the center of the crankshaft to the center of the output shaft on the trans and drew a straight line through the yoke of the differential to the front of the car, those two lines don't have to be exactly lined up (usually aren't due to the offset of the yoke on the rearend) but should be parallel. What you're talking about isn't going to make them parallel and will cause some vibration issues. The question is, how much. I would move the mount over on the crossmember and re-drill the holes to make the engine and trans straight in the car, front to rear. It's simple to do, no real reason not to from what I can see. The engine/trans combo can be offset in the car without problems (that's how the big blocks were from the factory) but I wouldn't install it crooked.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

Camcojb: Very nice camaro you have there. Your aluminum 540 makes my 468cid seem like a tiny mouse engine http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

To bad i live in Sweden ... parts cost twice as much here.

Thanks Jonas. It had a 468 before which ran nearly as well. As far as the poly mounts, I'm using them on the current engine and trans, and vibration is almost non-existant. I've had them on other combo's where it was annoying. It really depends on the engine balance; how much over-balance is built in, what rpm range it's balanced in, etc. I told the last guy to make sure it was smooth in the 2000-2500 rpm range as with the overdrive that's the rpm range I cruise in. I also had the 540 internally balanced instead of externally like my 468. The 540 is much smoother. I removed the poly mounts from my ProCharged 468 and ran the stock rubber interlocking type cause the vibration bugged me.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

Jonas: Don't use my measurements! I reread your post and noticed it is a 68. I gave you 69 reference measurements. I saw that jody (Camcojb) was posting about mount heights and I know that he has a 69, so I thought we were talking about a 1969 BB. I believe the mounts are different for a 1968 BB. I'm sorry for any confusion I caused. Sorry David P.

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Bob
Garnet Red 69/SS396/TH400/355 Posi ( 454 now)
94 HD Dyna Wideglide

No harm done...

Is the frame in the 69 very diffrent from the 67-68.

In what way ?

I have seent that it's easier to find engine framebrackets for a 69 BB installation.

Camcojb: I see that you have a tremec TKO transmission... what's your experience with that...i am looking for a durable transmission to put behind my BB machine.


[This message has been edited by Jonas W (edited 11-28-2002).]

Jonas,

I've had the TKO in a 10.60 car and 11 second car without issues. I'm sure they can be broken, but I've never spoken with anyone who has. I have seen Mustangs run them in the 9's.

Mine is working excellent, very smooth and easy shifting. No complaints at all.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

These mounts are new reproduction to fit big block 67/68 & measured out of vehicle.
Drivers side is 2,1/4" from frame to centre on hole.
Passenger side is 1,7/8 from frame to centre of hole.

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http:community.webshots.com/user/tpd67 (http://community.webshots.com/user/tpd67)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Camcojb:
Jonas,

I've had the TKO in a 10.60 car and 11 second car without issues. I'm sure they can be broken, but I've never spoken with anyone who has. I have seen Mustangs run them in the 9's.

Mine is working excellent, very smooth and easy shifting. No complaints at all.

Jody

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to get one of those...Where can i buy a tranny like that on the west coast (preferbly as close to L.A as possible.

The only place i have seen on the web that sell these are www.fortesparts.com (http://www.fortesparts.com) are there any others ?

T.P.DONAGHY: Thanks !

/ Jonas

If you're going to buy from the west coast, the only place I know of is Dark Horse Performance that has them converted for a Chevy replacement; they are up in Washington, but that's a lot closer than Fortes is to Los Angeles.

I actually used the Ford version from D&D Performance. It was only $1406. brand new including freight delivered to Sacramento. But that will require an adaptor on your bellhousing or one of Mc Leods adaptor bellhousings. You'll also need to modify a Ford throwout bearing, but the rest is a bolt-in. I used a hydraulic clutch/bearing.

http://www.darkhorseperformance.com/
http://ddperformance.com/

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

Jody: I also saw that the ford version was about $500 cheaper...why is that ?

I haven't got anything yet so i need the whole package Transmission, Bellhouse, Clutch, hydraulic-slavecylinder etc.The things i do have is the wilwood brake/clutch pedal assembly so the car is prepared for an hydraulic clutch. http://www.soulcollector.nu/jpg/Newstuff/WilwoodPedals.jpg

Could you please recomend wich parts to order to make this installation as easy as possible. Basicly a list of all the parts needed to put in a TKO after my Chevy Bigblock.

That is if it's not too much trouble for you.

Cheers !

Jonas,

The Ford version is the standard way they come. They're $1349. from D&D brand new with yoke and stock shifter. The Chevy version requires them to swap input shafts and re-drill or modify the bolt pattern on the case so the cost is higher.

I used the #8635 McLeod bellhousing. This is the standard Chevrolet scattershield with an aluminum adaptor to mount the TKO to the Chevrolet housing. If you already had a bellhousing, then they offer the adaptor separately (#8610) for about $125. Clutch choice would be up to you. Just use a standard Chevrolet clutch with the 1 1/8" 26 spline disc which is what the TKO uses. I'm running a McLeod oval track dual disc with aluminum flywheel and hat.

In addition to the bellhousing and adaptor, you need an adaptor pilot bushing to go from the Chevy crank to the TKO input shaft. McLeod also makes this (don't remember the part number) and it's about $15. As far as hydraulic throwout bearings, I passed on a McLeod unit and used a Tilton. The McLeod has been having some issues with o-ring leakage and is currently being re-designed. They won't have them available for sale (the new versions) until January or February at least and I didn't want to wait. The Tilton is an excellent unit. They offer a bolt on unit that replaces the stock input shaft cover. You need a #61-601 and #61-621 Tilton, one is the bearing retainer, and the other is the adjustable bearing. This requires a 7/8" bore master cylinder which bolts right to your pedal assembly. I again used a Tilton master and modified one of Teetoe Jones' firewall brackets so I could hook mine up to the stock Camaro pedal. Very clean and fit with no sheetmetal cutting, went through the stock rod hole in the firewall. I tried a 3/4" master to reduce the pedal pressure, but it didn't have enough volume to dis-engage the clutch, so that hydraulic bearing wants a 7/8" diameter master. One thing I did do was re-drill a hole on the stock pedal about 5/8" higher than the stock upper hole. This dramatically reduced the pedal pressure and made it much more fun to drive. You may not have any pressure issues depending on the clutch you run. This is just an idea in case you want to lower the pedal effort once it's assembled.

With the above installed just run a line from the master to the throwout bearing, bleed the system, and that part is done. You'll probably need the driveshaft length modified depending on what's currently in there. You'll also need a shifter handle; the Hurst chrome sticks bolt right on to the stock shifter that comes with the trans. I swapped out to a Pro 5.0 shifter as they have an even shorter throw, but the stock shifter isn't bad. On my car I had to move the crossmember up 3-4 inches from the TH400 location. I also drilled and tapped two 7/16" NC holes to use the stock GM trans mount (urethane). The Ford mount that bolts to the trans is taller and got my trans-rear end angles off. The tranny fits the stock Camaro tunnels with no mods other than cutting a hole for the shifter.

Let me know if there's any other info or pics you need.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

Thanks Jody for taking the time to help me.

I'll look into this and assemble a list of all the parts with prices and stuff and get back.

Cheers !

One other thing I just thought of; if you're going to run a mechanical speedo you'll need the adaptor and gear. I got that through Fortes for about $65.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)

Jody, no more 2004R?



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Don~ ZZ430DropTop (http://hometown.aol.com/zz430droptop67rs)
~~~~and~~~~
70 RS (http://hometown.aol.com/performancespecs)
67 RS/SS Convertible, 70 RS

Not at the moment Don. I had been thinking about doing a swap to a manual trans. When I hurt the converter Bruce was super busy (several weeks out) before he could check things out so I went ahead and swapped in a TKO. Bruce replaced the converter with a billet unit he has now, full inspection was done on the trans (it was perfect, nothing to replace) so I am still running the TKO at the moment.

Jody

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MY CAMARO (http://www.camcojb.com)