I was talking to the guy who built my motor and told him i was planning on using Amsoil, he said that was a no no. He didnt give much explanation he just said dont do it because the rings will never seat and it will smoke from here on out. He also said to run 20w-50 valvoline. He said maybe i could try synthetic once the motor had 10k miles, but thats the opposite of what i hear from other people. What do you guys think?

I've heard people say what your machine shop has told you, so I will be interested in hearing what others have to say.

My challenge to the machine shop guy is: Don't brand new Corvettes come from the factory with Mobil 1 synthetic? I haven't seen any of them smoking and I doubt that they put an equivalent run time of 10,000 miles on the engine prior to engine installation.

I have heard of a product (can't remember the name of it) that you're supposed to coat your cylinder walls with after a fresh build/rebuild that's supposed to make the rings seat very quickly. Maybe GM is using this on the new Vettes and explains why the they don't smoke yet they use the synthetic oil.

Let's sit back and see what the rest of the gang has to say about it. There are a lot of brilliant folks on this site with a wealth of info, so maybe they can answer these questions.....


Marty

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X77, Stock matching number 302, 4:10 rear, black int, weld prostars, 2.5" Flowmaster 50 Series
http://community.webshots.com/user/lakemg

[This message has been edited by 1FASTZ (edited 01-01-2003).]

the shop is right on the money you don't want to run synthenic oil for the first 1000 miles,you have to give the rings a change to seat,after 1000 miles you can change to synthenic.

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69z 509 merlin 600 hp/620 torque pro street

I want to know who is building motors that take 1,000+ miles to seat the damn rings.

I like to run a 10w-30 regular blend for initial start-up/cam break-in. Change the oil, put 3-400 miles on her, change oil/filter again and go to a full synthetic.

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79' Z28...

Name ????
First of all, I want to say up front that YOUR engine builder is the final say on HIS engine. If you want him to stand behind it...do what he says !!!!
That said...I prefer 10W40 or 10W30 Mobil 1 synthetic from the get go on the engines I build. There is some exceptions....engines with larger than stock, flat tappet (non-roller) cams probably should go with a non-synthetic oil for the first few thousand miles. Most of the cam manufacturers specify that you do NOT use synthetic oils with thier flat tappet cams, especially when new. Apparently the synthetics do not have the proper wear additives for a flat tappet cam to break in properly. This is not a concern in the vehicles that come with Mobil 1 from the factory (like the Vette's) because they all have roller cams.
As far as rings sealing...if the cylinders are finished properly, the rings will be almost seated before you even fire the engine. Any of the piston ring manufacturers will verify this.
Hope this helps,

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Bill Koustenis
Owner
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
1971 Chevelle "Heavy Chevy" original owner

[This message has been edited by BillK (edited 01-01-2003).]

So far most everyone is right on with their ideas on new motors and Syns. As a user of Amsoil for 25 years I can attest to its quality in any engine.
How GM overcame the Vette break in with Mobile One has yet to been addresses by GM in any publication Ive read but always break in your engine with what the builder suggests. Most the time it is his favorite brand of petroleum oil which is fine and use a high quality depth type filter made by Hastings and others to catch break in particles down to single digit micron leves. After a break in of around 500 miles, I would recommend changing the filter and and another batch of petroleum for another 1000 miles. Then change it over to Syn. Mobile One is good and so is Amsoil.
The sheer strength and viscosity stability of the Syns far exceeds that of any petroleum so I wouldnt be concerned with using a Syn. in a flat cam but again follow the engine builders lead since he should be warrantying it. A good Syn like Amsoil also carries a warranty on their product too. I also suggest oil analysis at every oil change to see what the pattern of wear is. That $30 test can save you thousands in catching a mechanical problem ahead of it going "Blooey".
Feel free to ask questions about Syns. there are a few of us in here that have used them for over 25 years with excellent results.
Good luck too on the new power plant.


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.... Jim aka Click :)
69RS 350/255 LM1, Balanced, TRW forged pistons, .30 over, TH-350 auto.,
Dover White, Blue Vinyl top, F&R spoilers, close ratio ps, am/fm, 3.08 Posi.
A/C, fold down rear seat, Pwr Disk Brakes, Cowl Induction, Endura Bumper
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

BillK,

Didn't some shadetree guy's just shake a can of Comet over the carb. to get chrome rings to seat in the old flatheads that weren't too round to begin with, or is this just another old mechanic's tale??? pdq67

pd,
Yes...that used to be the tales you heard...and it might have even worked on some of the older chrome and plain cast rings but.....yuuuk, do you want Comet in your engine...no thanks !

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Bill Koustenis
Owner
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
1971 Chevelle "Heavy Chevy" original owner

LMAO I had a buddy that got an Opal in 1972 that was a rust bucket from his aunt. He poured a can of Bon-Ami into his crankcase cuz he heard that would help stop oil burning. Needless to say it hatched on him when he drove away from the curb, smoke all over the place. Must have scored the bearings as well as the cylinder walls. What a laugh that was. lol http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

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.... Jim aka Click :)
69RS 350/255 LM1, Balanced, TRW forged pistons, .30 over, TH-350 auto.,
Dover White, Blue Vinyl top, F&R spoilers, close ratio ps, am/fm, 3.08 Posi.
A/C, fold down rear seat, Pwr Disk Brakes, Cowl Induction, Endura Bumper
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

If you have put moly rings in the engine, they do take a while to seat at least 1000 miles. I would agree with the machine shop and don't put and wear gaurds(slick 50 etc.) in there until after then.

Most moly rings will actually seat while you are turning the engine over when assembling it. The modern iron rings are almost as good. Like Bill said a lot of old wifes tales came about because of the old crome rings and much poorer quality iron rings. But also as Bill said the guy who built the motor has the say so. It's no big deal to use regular oil for the first change then switch.

I had a friend that was an Amsoil dealer. This product is not like most of the syn's on the market. This stuff is suppose to NEVER need changing if you have a filter press to clean the oil. I would not put it in an engine that was fresh. Seating rings is really important depending on how ring type and how concentric the cylinders are when the new parts went in.
---------------------------------------------
68 396/375 L-78

I've always thought that the new "moly" rings seat by the time the engine hits opperating temp, the oil ring takes a bit of time. I've used Amsoil on innitial start up with no ill effects. but i changed it out after a few hundred miles to get rid of "break in contaminates" That said, it's not cost effective if it's only there for a few miles.

Where's Big gear head on this 'un...

John

As Bill said, do what the builder says. If you call the cam manufactures most of them (I talked to Crower and Comp), suggest not running synthetic oils. Their reason was as Bill stated, lack of shear protection. After a lot of research I found that as long as the oil has the right additives, which both Amsoil and Mobil 1 do, they are fine. I personally run synthetic with a flat tappet cam and have for about 5 years in the same engine. I would not use it during break in or for at least 1000 mile (IMO).



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Royce (NO XQSSS) Bradley
70 Camaro 385ci 11.90's on street tires, pump gas, no nitrous, no trailer.
69 Camaro (sold)
71 Vega (still building)
2000 GMC Z71
Harley Davidson FXR
Camaro pictures http://community.webshots.com/user/camaroman7d

I have heard that GM adds a friction additive in the oil they put into the vette's at the factory to help with the break in of the motors.

Hei.
Millers oil have a brake in oil that they says should make it the first miles.Then You can put in anathing You want.
Camaro-67

My Viper plant also builds the Viper engine (moly-faced rings, roller cam) from scratch; we don't use any special lube on the cylinder walls or additives in the initial fill, just plain Mobil 1 synthetic, and let it rip. The engine is hot-fired for the first time after it's installed in the car, idles for about two minutes, then the chassis (no body on it yet) is driven into the roll-test booth and we run the snot out of it, up and down from 100mph about six times during an eight-minute test on the rolls. Moly-faced rings seat in less than five minutes.

We start here:
http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=349602

Halfway home:
http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=349603

Pop it in here:
http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415850

And run the snot out of it here:
http://image1.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=415852

Fun Stuff! http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

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JohnZ
CRG
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

That's too cool. Not fair http://www.camaros.net/forum/frown.gif

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68 Coupe, 350 4-speed
Jim's Camaro Corner (http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxu109/)

i ran 20w50 castrol gtx after rebuilding my 305....i honed the cylinder walls...didnt bore...engine had approx 120000 miles before the rebuild....and it took about 2-300 miles before the rings actually seated and i stopped having white smoke come out of the breathers (blowby) looks sweet at night with the headlights on and white smoke rollin out from underneath the hood http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

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85' Maro Ex 2.8l
305...., 2000 stall 700r4
Hooker SuperComp Longtubes (1 7/8)
Mufflex Y-Pipe
3" Flowmaster cat-back
Performer RPM w/ 600cfm
SouthSide Subframes and Lift Bars
D/S Loop
its yellow
and a 99' Cobra....
ajracing.cjb.net

JohnZ;
What are you running in your 69 Z?
I've got mine up and running now and am currently running Valvoline non-syn.
...By the way a GM employee now working at the Viper facility...say it ain't so....!!

ok, smoke rolling out from under the hood will never look sweet to me. smoke anywhere will never be appealing to me or anyone i know. as for that stuff that breaks in the rings, i seen it is the Jeg's catalog. i think it is a lube like vasoline or something. the funny cars and top fuels and pro stocks all use it when they rebuild. that warm up period before they go out on the track is actually the break in time. its pretty cool. i never knew that moly rings seated that quick. i always rode around impatiently for about 1500 miles until i let her rip. as for synthetics, i have no favorite. cheap 10w40 non syn. always did the trick for me. never seen a puff of smoke before except mabye a white puff on the first fire.

[This message has been edited by nate (edited 01-04-2003).]

Lets trade jobs

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VI018DZ:
JohnZ;
What are you running in your 69 Z?
I've got mine up and running now and am currently running Valvoline non-syn.
...By the way a GM employee now working at the Viper facility...say it ain't so....!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been building my own engines all my life (including blown fuel Hemis in the early 60's), never used anything but plain ordinary brand-name 10W30 oil in street engines, 20W50 in race engines, straight 40W in the fuelers, have never had a lubrication-related failure.

Spent 21 years with Chevrolet, then the last 16 years with Chrysler - retired last year as the Viper Plant Manager. Now enjoying my hobby full-time, with MY priorities and MY schedule http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif



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JohnZ
CRG
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

The GM stuff is EOS, isn't it, for cam and other point loading wear break-in??

If I was really worried about this, I would run Diesel URSA oil in my car. But it probably won't due the catalytic converter much good b/c of the heavi-metallics in it that are used for extreme pressure resistance!!!

You know, an oil that is a dark teal color b/c it has so much stuff in it like good oils used to have before the EPA started cleaning the air and stopping converter heavi-metal poisoning for the 100,000 mile life expectancy thing...

I recently read somewhere that there is an EPA mandate floating around suggesting to lower oil Extreme Pressure stuff even further but haven't found an up to date web site on it's progress...

I think the engine makers are worried not about air pollution, 100,000 mileage life, but rather engine wear, 100,000 mileage life, instead!!!

pdq67

Ring seating or should I say not seating in newly rebuilt or remanufactured engines are maily due to the fault of the installer or person doing the initial start up on the engine. The worst thing you can do to a new engine is have a pile of crap carb on it or have no idea of where your at in reagard to tune before starting it for the first time. If you keep turning it over and dumping fuel into the cylinders you are washing away the lubrication that was there when the engine was built on the stand. The cylinders get oiled or lubed from oil being slung in the crank case.

When you turn it over hundreds and hundreds of times with out starting to sling the oil and fuel going into the cylinders with out the engine firing to burn off the fuel the rings can get scored/scuffed and loose thier seal. All that fuel just washes the oil from the cylinder walls. You just might want to squirt a little oil in the cylinders if you having trouble getting it started to keep them lubed. A little Marvel Mystery oil goes a long way.

Joe

Ahhh, my two favorite lube additives....GM's EOS & Marvel Mystery Oil......

I envy you JohnZ...Viper Plant Manager? And now retired, congrats, JohnZ

Everett