: MSD with points or HEI
Oct 4th, 00, 07:31 AM
Hello Just wanted some advice. I have a MSD6AL and wanted to know which would be better. A points distributor or a HEI (factory on both) or what modifications would you recommend to either distributor to make it better suited for use with the MSD.
67 camaro convertible
454 - 700r4
4:10 12 bolt
Oct 4th, 00, 07:53 AM
If you're not worried about originality, go with the HEI, much better, more reliable system, period. KZ
John D. Smith
Oct 4th, 00, 09:50 AM
i installed an HEI when i switched motors,then about a month later ,buddy i work with bought a 6al and didn't like it,i got it cheap,i love it if not only for the limiter,but picked up .3-.5 in the 1/4,but then again maybe the track was better that day?but could "feel" a difference,and it starts easier.
Oct 4th, 00, 12:51 PM
I use a point distributor with a unilite conversion to trigger my 6AL. No use having that big fat HEI in there just for a trigger, and no clearance problems with the firewall or air cleaner.
67 RS/SS 350 700R4
69 SS clone unfinished
72 454 Weekend Racer
Galen W. Rouse
Oct 4th, 00, 01:04 PM
The MSD 6al or any other CD system for that mater can be triggered by points, mag pick up (HEI,ford,Chrysler) or hall effect. The points and hall efect would use the white wire triger. The points would last forever as they only carry a few millivolts when hooked to a CD. MSD uses ford mag pickups in there distributers and seem to have the cleanest signal followed by the chrysler type(which is the one Bill Hays used w/his stinger conversions). And then the HEI 8 point relucter/pickup style would follow third. There really isn't much difference in the performance between the different pickups though. The main thing would be having the distributer curved after making sure that it is in good mechanical shape and definatley run a coil produced for the CD. MSD is a good coil. They are hit with 400 plus volts as oposed to the 12 with a conventional system. The winding will give a quicker rise time for the longest plug arc over as possible. Stay away from the big Yellow Accell coil and the big Black Mallory 29440 used with unilites. Galen
S/B Chevy Lover
67 Camaro street car
10:50's @ 128 on motor w/383 cid
79 Z28 Restored stock apearance
13:40's @ 101 stock exh.& intake
Oct 4th, 00, 03:35 PM
I build dedicated MSD trigger pickups into stock GM point distributors, look stock, work like the MSD stuff, plug directly into MSD magnetic trigger wiring. The only way to go if you don't want an MSD looking aftermarket distributor.
No problem with cross fire or arcing from point style caps, MSD uses them on most fo their distributors, easy to get parts, uses either MSD red performance cap or black copper terminal cap. Adding a separate ignition system just to trigger the MSD (PerTronix, Unilite) is not a brilliant idea. Do it right, trigger the thing the way MSD does.
Using the large cap HEI distributor as a trigger is also not real clever. Larger cap does not do anything to alleviate cross fire or spark scatter, absolutely no benefit from using it, only reason it exhists is that GM needed the room for the module and cap and made the cap larger to accommodate them, not for any other reason, no matter what old wive's tale we have all been told. Don't believe that, go look at the very first production HEI, the Unitized distributor option for a Pontiac.
MSD/Ford pickup is better, stronger, more precise signal, and you want to move the coil off the cap with any large cap HEI anyway.
Oct 4th, 00, 04:45 PM
The 69 Firechicken I just bought already has a HEI. I'm not sold on the neverlite or HEI, a friend had all kinds of trouble with a neverlite and I've had my problems with the HEI. I Like the ideal of the stock looking distributor. I also planned on hiding the MSD box. I already have the MSD coil.
What would a distributor conversion cost? or is this something I could do with some direction.
67 camaro convertible
454 - 700r4
4:10 12 bolt
Mark W. Winning
Oct 5th, 00, 02:49 AM
I have used the 6AL with an HEI and loved it. If you run over about 5500 rpm, I would recommend the MSD coil conversion. The stock HEI coil just don't cut it.
1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
Oct 5th, 00, 05:27 AM
And, that is the reason we move the coil out of the large cap HEI's, using a round oil filled coil. Gives a cooler running distributor, better coil for those ignition systems, 8,000+ rpm capability.
Oct 5th, 00, 03:44 PM
Did MSD not bring out a epoxy filled coil?
350,350 new paint
Oct 5th, 00, 06:43 PM
ALL HEI coils mounted in the cap, stock and aftermarket, are epoxy type coils, that's why they are worse than the oil filled coils.
Epoxy coils hold more heat than oil filled ones, and when that happens, spark energy and performance are reduced, and the coils crack.
I have not found any epoxy coil to be worth a darn, not one. Especially bad are the coil-in-cap HEI ones.
Oct 5th, 00, 07:08 PM
Ive noticed you guys are not too fond of the mallory stuff. Ive got a unilight and the matching coil- same part number as mentioned above I think.What goes wrong with them I havent used my set up yet, just wondering what to look out for.
Oct 5th, 00, 08:05 PM
I guess the Mallory stuff is ok,as Super Shops sold a zillion of them,which don't make them good.Here is what happened to me,I was in morining traffic one time and the fields in the alternator shorted out making the alt go to full charge. I saw the amp gague go over all the way,but before I could get over the unilite burned, out and the thing lost fire I almost got ran over.
I have always liked MSD,no matter how you trigger it.
Oct 6th, 00, 06:23 AM
Mallory and Super Shops were owned by the same person, Harry Eberlin, who also owned ASAP (a Jeg's type parts mover type outlet) and Trak Auto stores. No brainer here on what they pushed in the S-S places for ignition. That whole parts empire mess went up Harry's nose, Peruvian marching powder.
Unilite is very sensitive to over-voltage, and the charging system, wiring, grounding has to be top notch for the system to work without problems (Mallory had loads of Chrysler Unilite failures, from older point type regultors sticking on about 18 to 20 volts). Unilites REQUIRE ballast resistor for both the coil and Unilite module to not fail. Don't let anybody talk you into running the thing without the ballast resistor, it will fail without the ballast in place. Stock GM resistor wire is fine.
I used to install a voltage regulator from a 1970s Plymouth Duster dash board, in-line in the power feed to the coil. These regulators plug into the dash board's printed circuit to stop over-voltage from frying the guages, look like a three prong turn signal flasher, are low cost and good insurance for a Unilite. They regulate the voltage down to a constant 12.80 volts max, drop excessive voltage directly to ground. I've seen 'em save a few Unilites from blindness.
Heck, they might even save a PerTronix or two, too.
Oct 7th, 00, 07:42 AM
I just spent some time on the MSD website. If epoxy filled coils are so bad why do the new products from MSD include a substantial number of epoxy based coils, including the new HVC line?
Oct 7th, 00, 09:21 AM
Who cares, they are more problem prone than oil filled coils, cost more, and they lose spark efficiency as they get hot, so, they just don't work for me. They are very good advertizing hype material, though, you seemed to believe the hype about them. Just shows almost anybody will buy anything if it's advertized right.
Stock GM large cap HEIs have epoxy type coils, and so do some of the other more problem prone ignition systems, they are good for sales, as epoxy type coils have a fairly high failure rate.
I don't believe in all the hype and crap in advertizing, and just tell it like it is. Life's too short to go through the bull ads. You may certainly believe anything you want, even hype ads, right or wrong.
Oct 7th, 00, 12:17 PM
Have you tried the new MSD non-HEI epoxy coild or are some people just set in their old ways and unwilling to try anything new?
Give it a chance first.
Oct 7th, 00, 04:06 PM
I'm not here to give false info out, or get reamed for posting the truth. If you don't like it, tell me and I'll stop answering questions here, as I sure can find other ways to spend my time.
For the record, as I am always looking to make my products better and recommend the best components I can find, I have tested 5 of the new MSD epoxy coils, on vehicles, on the chassis dyno with running engine and on my distributor test station, and I will still continue to use the oil filled coils, thanks. And, my mind isn't closed by a long shot.
BTW, two of the MSD epoxy coils outright failed, flat died, during my testing. Both had "Made in Mixico" on them. That's really enough to show me.
I do ignition systems for a living, special small cap HEI and MSD trigger distributors, and ALL my systems use a remote coil, not in the cap. I have to recommend the best parts I can, so I recommend the MSD 8202, Accel 8140/8140C, all oil filled, reliable, exellent output, both not epoxy filled, after testing other makes and configurations (epoxy vs oil filled).
Now, is that specific enough for you, or do you want to be here for the next test. If so, start traveling, I'm not coming your direction.
Enough, I wouldn't have mentioned anything unless I had already tested the parts in question. I'm kinda funny like that, I like the truth, that's why I test things.
[This message has been edited by IgnitionMan (edited 10-07-2000).]