My neighbor has a 69 Convertible Mustang with a Ford 302 in it. It's a decent car, but not anything near show quality.

Anyway, it sounds like he's got an inline 6 in it. There is no rev at all to the engine, which I think is a shame for any muscle car to sound that way. In fact, I actually counted the spark plugs the other day because I just couldn't believe that an 8 cylinder could sound that way.

His 18-yr old son drives it quite a bit, so I do get to hear it speed off into the distance. Again, it sounds like a 6 and seems to have an off-the-line performance of a 6.

I'm not an engine guy at all -- don't work on them, don't know how carburetors work, etc. Is this normal for a 302 to sound/look like this or is it a case of not all 302s are built the same? I guess I'm used to thinking of the 302 as a hot engine.

Thanks.

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K.A. Young

67 SS 350
PowerGlide AT
AC, Deluxe Interior
Butternut Yellow
47,000 original miles
Numbers matching (POP, VIN, Cowl, Engine, Tranny, ...)

Daily Driver (http://storm.prohosting.com/~youngka/pics.htm)

The 302 F@rd is just a run of the mill production car engine, whereas the 302 Chevy was a specially built HP engine designed to fit in the SCCA trans am rules of the time (305 limit). F@rd also produced a similar HP 302 for the trans am series (Boss 302), but it couldn't keep up with the Chevy.

Sound is often a muffler thing! You may not like it if the neighbor lets his kid put flows on it!! When I turned 16 I got to drive a '66 with a 289 3 speed. It had stock exhaust and sounded very tame. When I told my friends I was gonna get to drive it on a regular basis they all laughed. With the lady that owned it driving it you would have thought it was a Cortina. To all our amazment that car scooted when someone wanted to put it into motion. Mind you I'm not saying 13 sec time slips but it wasn't as bad as it seemed... You wouldn't like the combo in my '69 ragtop. It's quite at idle and when moving down the hwy until you put your foot into it, doesn't have a bloppy cam and it really doesn't call attention to the car when I hit the parking lot! It makes over 400 ft lbs of torque at 2000 rpm though!

Can't judge a book by it's cover...

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/ww.jpg), the '96 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

www.racemufflers.com (http://www.racemufflers.com) check out the car under "large case mufflers" and you'll know why you cant judge a book by its cover, just like dennis stated.

The only car I see is black GTO ... which I would expect to be fast.

Several months back I read some website that chronicled this guy and his daily driver minivan (I think it was late 80s ugly POS). He had souped up the engine and was posting sub 12 quarters. Literally drove to the track, family piled out, put on the helmet, and off he went. He had pics of his times and pics of him beating all kinds of muscle cars, hotrods, and newer corvettes, et al. I think that was probably the point you were trying to make.

BTW, I wasn't trying to suggest that fast cars have to be loud cars. I was only stating that my neighbor's car was neither fast nor loud, yet sported a Ford 302. Just wondered what the deal was; why was the 302 a dog. I think Kyvox' response probably answered that.

Thanks for all your replies ... I enjoy learning about this stuff.

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K.A. Young

67 SS 350
PowerGlide AT
AC, Deluxe Interior
Butternut Yellow
47,000 original miles
Numbers matching (POP, VIN, Cowl, Engine, Tranny, ...)

Daily Driver (http://storm.prohosting.com/~youngka/pics.htm)

Imho, you need to compare a 271hp/289 Ford engine to a Chevy 302 b/c it was about the best running of Fords older engines back then for it's size.

The Boss 302 had cleveland heads, (i.e., Chevy BB type heads), on it with first year 2.23" intake valves and sewer pipe sized ports so had NO low end at all. It was soo bad that Ford changed the intake valves to, I think, 2.19" the next year to gain some torque but they were still way too big for just 302 inches!

I followed a 271hp/289 '65 or '66 Mustang coupe back when my car was new and it had lower gears and would just scoot away from me in town between street blocks! I'm sure I coulda handled it if I coulda got a good straight run with him on the highway real easy, but what the hey, the little bugger ran real good in town! pdq67

the ford 302 is a v-8 engine. that is what's on my fathers 74' van. it's a good size and power engine, but no where as high performance as the the chevy 302.

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68'/SS Clone "teSSa"
88'/BMW 735i
90'/Camaro
74'/Green "turtle" Van...lol

pdq,

back me up on this,

the main difference is the Chevy 302 rules, the Ford does not.

I know Parnelli Jones will take exception to this and I'll listen to his argument, he earned that much in 1970, but he's the only one.

Dave

SY1,

He, He!! When I was baby sitting the I/M station in St. Charles County last summer, I got to know one of the inspectors that had a (I think) 302H-O LX bodied Mustang with a bottle a squeeze in the trunk. Needless ta say the little light pony ran VERY well.

I have found that whatever brand a person gets to first and treats them right is generally what they prefer. I know, I wanted a '50 Ford flathead car in highschool and ended up with my '57 Chevy so I went Chevy!

BTW, Yes, Chevy rules and I think it is because our engine is just enough bigger bore center wise and crank to deck height wise that it can have better heads and can be made bigger, easier then the little Ford H-O engine can. It's kinda the old SB/BB debate except between SB chevy and Ford here!!!

The same thing goes with the MOPAR 340/360 engine being better than ours, but it's bore centers aren't as wide so can't be bored as much. At least I think it can't? Correct me guy's if I am wrong here! It does have a taller deck height so can and does run a longer rod for a better rod/stroke ratio!!

Out of them all, I bet the Olds 350 is about the best designed and I think one of the mag's proved it a while back when they did a series of 350 engine build ups like the recent BB build ups done using the E-brock heads and CC's XE274 cam as a baseline.

But the problem here is, is just what is a SB and just where do they turn into BB's exterior size-wise??? The littlest SB that I know of is the little 215 inch aluminum BOP engine and the biggest BB is a 462 Lincoln!! But the big Lincoln isn't a modern designed engine but rather a hold over from the '50's type. pdq67

PS., ponder this, a 500 Cad. is just a schosh heavier then a Chevy SB!!! Like right at 625 pounds ready to run!!

pdq,
I just couldn't resist gettin on the Ford's a little. I've seen many of them run quite well at Moroso, it seems there is no shortage of them down that way. I'd agree that Olds got it right, it was very common to see the Rockets running almost 200,000 miles. Today that isn't really as impressive, but back in the 70's it was quite an achievement.

I also always felt that the 340 seemed to really run hard compared to a 350 Chevy, and they sure sound a whole lot meaner, sound more like a high winding 302 to me. But then (I'm not sure why I open myself up for critism with this next remark all the time) I'm not a 350 chevy fan at all. I'll take almost any other Chevy first. If I buy a car with a 350 in it, I can't remove it quick enough. Just my preference, I've had no luck with them in performance applications. I know everyone else on the planet has, but I like to wind a little more than they seem to want to take. If I want torque I'll go big block. I have been considering a attempt at the 400 block with a 3 inch stroke thing again though. I think I can run Eagle 6.250 rods and mill the deck .065 and keep the same comp height. That would give me quite a bit of dwell at tdc.

The Cadi engine makes you wonder how they lightened it up so much doesn't it?

SY1,

GM "waisted" the big cad. engine. I mean, if you look close at it, you will see where the waterjackets stick out down by the bottom of the "V", so this is one place they removed some weight. It is like how Dart has done their new SB casting on the sides and front and rear to allow more coolant volume instead of weight savings.

I figure the big Cad. was about the best designed engine GM made except for the cast externally balanced crank! It's a shame that they didn't put a BB snout on it and internally balance it just enough so that a standard 454 balancer could be ran. They may not have been able to do it, though b/c of crankcase volume??? Who know's nowaday's since it's gone anyway.

Do you know the big sucker has a 5.0" bore spacing, if only we could buy them in siamesed cylinder design today!

As for 350's, I figure that you have a thing for putting your foot in them and them not winding like the shorter stroke engines, that's all. I had the same problem when I went from remembering how my junk 301 wrapped up to my 406 and how it powered down the rode! Talk about night and day!!!

I did use to have fun with my car when it was new by letting guy's get the jump on me out of the hole and then motoring right by them in the top end of third gear! You would have loved the looks on some of the guy's faces! They couldn't believe I could let them have 2 maybe 2.5 car lengths on me out of the hole and still beat them by a half to a car at the top end of the marked highway strip we used ta run on when nobody was around.

You would probably have a blast with a 230 V-8, made from a 3.5" bore 267 block and a 3.0" stroke medium journal 283/302 crank! The little sucker should run to 10,000 quite easily if you have it spec'ed right and do it all the time! Imho.

It wouldn't have a whole lot of power b/c it is sooo small, but with the right gearing and installed in a small lightweight car, it should really supprise alot of people! He, He!! And if that isn't enough, then mount a turbo on it that can take it's high rpm's!!!

I like the idea of the 330 cubic inch, 3.0" stroked, .060" over 400 block engine, but like the OEM Z-engine, it too would have to be geared right so that you could use all of it's high winding capability! Put light pistons in it and it would definately go upstairs just like the Z does.

Heck, if I had the bucks, I would get a Dart block and do the fancy boring to it so that it would be a 4.25" bore and then install the 3.0" crank to create a 340.5" engine!!! He, He!!! You would evenually get to the point that even though it has a short stroke, it would produce enough power to GO real good!! Kinda like a 500" Pro-Stock BB engine that is something like 4.7" bore x 3.6" stroke!!

I can b/s about this crap for a long time but alass, I have no money ta play so all I can do is mouth!! Later, pdq67

pdq,
I think you hit the nail on the head. The 350 is a proven motor and for most the motor of choice and a great motor. It just doesn't match my habits well and I can't resist not trying to wind it up. I'm stuck in the wind'em high days, and it does get expensive. I just like the sound and the feel of the high winding motors.

Me too, SY1, Me too!

The only problem is that everytime you wind one out, it is like calling out, "give me a ticket, give me a ticket", for most anything from plain old hot rodding to a noise violation!!! So go figure. And that holds true to even sitting at a stop sign!!

I know a kid that was followed out of town with his buddy in tow by a Cop and both of them were pulled over a ticketed for "Intent to engage in a speed contest" and they weren't doing anything except driving down the road, one in front of the other!! So tell me about winding one out.

But after powering my 406 around, I do appreciate not having ta row the gears quite as much and my 496 should even be better! pdq67

Magazine tests of the day showed the Boss 302 and Camaro Z/28 almost identical in performance.
If anything the Boss 302 had porting that was too large and it lacked torque off the corners.
David

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