This topic may be too contoversial for this forum, but I thought I would put it out there.
Admin. Feel free to delete if this is the case.
After reading Sherr20's post about his friends being shot down, I wondered if this war was worth the sacrifice of good men and women of our country? Are we trying to help a people who don't want to be helped? Do the people of Iraq want democracy and Americanism? I believe that Saddam was up to no good, but we put him in power and funded him to help us with the Iran affair.
I think he should have been removed a long time ago, and not to say that he didn't have anything to do with 9\11, but Bin Laden and his cohorts should have been our focus.
Now that we started this whole thing, I think we should stick it out and clean it up. But what will it be worth when it's over? What will we have really accomplished besides removing Saddam?
We throw our weight around like the policeman of the world. I think our country is the greatest, but do other people of the world? I would like other countries to WANT to be like the U.S. Not because we want it for them. Maybe they like their's the way it is. Whether or not you agree with this war, we all need to support the men and women who are fighting for the freedom we all enjoy here in this country.
I grew up with the Vietnam war, seeing it on t.v. It has been sort of an interest of mine to understand the politics, and the controversial situations that occured there. Seems to me like we are headed in that same direction. Somebody once said that "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". I would like to see something good come out of this war...but now I don't know.
Those are my 2 cent thoughts. Anybody care to share?

Let's see how civil that stays. What has to be realized is the majority of the citizens of Iraq are already living a better life because of what has transpired over the past year. There are diehard followers of SoDam Insane that continue to fight. If the US pulled out tomorrow they would gain control and things would be back to square one.

As for other countries liking us, I could care less! Most of those that are vocal against the US do so in the same way a bitter welfair recipient living in the inner city speaks out against the rich guy living on the top of the hill.

Through out US history lives of those willing to stand up for their belief in the American way have been lost. Modern advancements can be thanked for reducing the numbers that give their lives. I'm afraid there will never be a day when no blood has to be shead to resolve conflict. The closer to home death comes the harder that is to accept, I just don't ever see it changing.

My heart goes out to the those that have lost friends and family members. There are also no real words that can express my thanks to those that have stood up and fought for freedom. I can't begin to imagine what it would be like to live life like the masses in Iraq did just a few short months ago!!

Most of those that are vocal against the US do so in the same way a bitter welfair recipient living in the inner city speaks out against the rich guy living on the top of the hill.

I can understand this, but the rich guy on the hill isn't helping these people either. Also most of the welfare recipients like their situation just fine. More legislation here would be beneficial to everyone also. If you want to live the American life, It's here for the asking. Gain citizenship legally, and have at it.
I just don't think it should be rammed down these peoples throats. The welfare recipients of this country (for the most part), have an option.
I believe most choose to stay on welfare because it's easy.
I just think that we have enough situations right here to deal with before we try to convert the world. I'm all for trying to help the less fortunate and those who really want to be helped, but enough is enough.

I'm all for getting rid of Sadam. However we share this planet with a lot of other people. To arrogantly ignore their input was foolish. How can you blame the rest of the world when we now beg for their help and they say no? The Bush administration had no plans for what happened when the initial fighting was over. Bush has a history of incompetence, which is fine when dad hands you the keys to companies, but is NOT fine when dad hands you the keys to the United States. Unfortunately we are there and aren't leaving anytime soon. Once again everyone else has to clean up a mess that our incompetent leader got us into.

My cousin is over there and I want him to come home. And I hate hearing that criticizing the actions of this administration is considered unpatriotic.

True, the rest of the world may not wish to be like us. True, we become involved in situations without a well thought out endgame plan. If it would keep our citizens safe, here and abroad, I would prefer the world fear us {for our retaliations} then respect us.

I was for going there and taking out Saddam but now as it drags on with no end in sight,its starting to seem like Viet Nam all over again.I dont watch the news anymore because i hate to see the daily American Death toll in Iraq. Were spending millions a day there and gas is aproaching two dollars a gallon.Whats the point?

First, I am a Bush supporter. I realize that we need to keep terrorism over there and out of our country. Sure, the citizens of Iraq are better off than when Saddam was around. But, in general the people in that part of the world live a life style we can not relate to. We will never "civilize" them into a democracy. That is just as foreign to them as being a fanatical muslim is to us. We can't relate and they can't relate. Our government needs to be very careful and not have this whole thing backfire into another Viet Nam. I know that we won't "lose" this war like Viet Nam, but do we want our country torn apart again? Do we want to give up prosperity and degrade our lifestyle to support that part of the world? When no ones wants to volunteer for the the services to fight for a better life for the Iraqi (or Iranian or Syrian) citizens, will those of you with draft age kids want to send them?

Gary

I had some friends that were home for a bit and just went back. And they said that some of the people are glad we are there but, most of the people just flat out hate us. They said that it is really hard to think that they are there to help people that really don't want us there. Our young men and women need all of our support and thanks as it don't sound like they are getting much praise over there.
I agree that the US should not be a world police. I belive that everyone that was connected with 9-11 should pay dearly, be it binladen, Hassan, and Saudi Arabia (which nothing has been done) And if they want it rebuilt then pay for it them selfs with oil. I see no sense why we should have to blow up a country and then rebuild it later. If we keep this up some weenie countries can come mess with us and say hay if the US bombs our country they will rebuild it bigger and better for free.
We need to take care of our own people and country and stop worrying about what is going on with the rest of the world. Can you hear that sucking sound? (ross perroe)
I whole hartedly support our troups. I can't stand the thought of our American service men and women dieing for a country of ungreatful people. We are the only country that plays by the rules. enough is enough.. Drop the big one and say don't mess with the US. let them clean up there own hole. Then spend the 60 trillion dollars on health care, taking care of our own people and making America better.
criss396 George Bush was elected not handed the office from his father.. If you don't vote you can't complain..or shouldn't graemlins/waving.gif anyways graemlins/waving.gif

THE US TRIES TO BE THE WORLD POLICE , WHICH IS FINE IT HAS WORKED FOR MANY YEARS , THIS IS WHY I AM SURE THAT LIFE DOES NOT EXIST ON OTHER PLANET'S ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,IF IT DID ,,,,,,,,,,,WE WOULD HAVE SENT THEM SOME FORIEGN AID !

Vietnam 1960-1975 apx 60,000 US deaths.
Iraq 2003-2004 656 US deaths. Please don't even try to compare the two, they're not even close!!

If the war in Iraq lasts for 15 years the US will loose about 10,000. Comparing US populations now and then should be factored in as well. The population has almost doubled since then... So we need to compare the projected 10,000 in 15 years to 120,000 before the impact of Iraq is that of Vietnam.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a war monger or trying to justify our envolevment based on deaths. Every single life we loose is precious but our military is voluntary and just like choosing the career of police office or fire fighter our troops are accepting of the risks. The majority of troops that fought in Vietnam were drafted and didn't have a choice.

Chris - you can blame the current administration but the truth is the people elected that administration. So the blame is on all of us, not the man in office. 300,000,000 people living in the US and the number willing to take the job is in the 10's. Like the direction thing are going or not, we really should give anyone willing to step up to the plate a standing ovation. For some reason unknown to mankind we seem to have this trate that makes us want to point fingers, and cast blame on the folks willing to even try!!

Has it really worked though? Wouldn't we be better off spending even half of what we spend on foreign aid, rebuilding countries that we interfered with, Mars missions etc. on our own soil? Making the U.S. better first?
If you are falling behind on your rent\mortgage payment....Do you offer to pay your neighbors rent\mortgage first? I don't. I'll pay mine first and if I can help them later, then we'll see. Maybe I can help, maybe I can't.
I know we have interests in other countries we should protect, the import\export between allies is vital. I understand that. But there is a lot more we can do here in our own country to make a better quality of life for our own citizens first. We can try and save the world later.

Dennis, I'm not trying to compare what is happening today as being consistent with Vietnam as far as body count. Just that the politics and the guerilla warfare tactics seem to be similar.
And if we don't come to a conclusion soon, the numbers may or may not be there, but the outcome is still the same.

I usually avoid threads like this but, this is something I had been thinking about and so far it is very civil (lets keep it that way), Let me say I am only going to voice my opinion and not take shots at anyone.

I didn't like the way the war started and I don't like the way it is going now. I don't think there is/was any doubt we could/would win. I just don't see why we didn't BOMB a lot more and keep the US Soldiers off the ground as much as possible. I am far from a war analyst or planner but, I would have bombed so much that all we would of had to do is go in with a broom and dust pan.

One American life lost for a country that doesn't want our help is too many if you ask me. Don't get me wrong I am all for kicking some butt when needed.

My neighbors Grandson is over there and has been for a while. He says the VERY large majority over there HATE us and want us out.

Sure their life sucked when Saddam was around but, they seemed to like it. There are a lot of countries that don't live like we do but, that's their right. Even if the Iraqis did not like Saddam, you can bet they liked him better than some outsider (that would be us) trying to rule their country. Just imagine if the majority of us didn't like Bush, and some other country came in to save us, I don't think we would welcome that no matter how bad it got here. I say if they don't want our help we pack up and leave, and NOT pay a bunch of money. If anything we should leave a bill for our services.

I would not want to live in any other country, I am very proud to be an American. With that said I don't like the way we try to force our will on other countries.

It is a little discouraging after all that talk about WMD (weapons of mass destruction) and we have yet to find any, I dont like being "mis-informed" to me they used that to try to scare the American people into supporting the war.

In either case I still SUPPORT THE TROOPS 100% they are Americans and it's not their choice to be there.

There is so much more to say but, I will leave well enough alone.

this is something I had been thinking about and so far it is very civil (lets keep it that way), Let me say I am only going to voice my opinion and not take shots at anyone.

This is what I had hoped for. A healthy constructive discussion I think all of us were thinking about. It has nothing to do with Camaros, but in a way it does. We can enjoy our cars because we are a free people.

I believe that that the United States is doing the right thing by liberating Iraq and ridding the world of Saddam. History has shown us that he was and is an evil man. I am glad that we have a President that is willing to take the War on Terror to the terrorists than wait until they bring the war to our soil. As for the UN and other nations....who cares...the United States is the Greatest Nation in the World and we need to be leaders, not followers like the French, Germans, etc... I am not happy with the increased resistance in Iraq and the increase in casualties, especially this last week. I think that President Bush, although not the most competent man, surrounds himself with some very brilliant people. I think we owe it to our troops that have died and the Iraqis to stick it out and finish what we started. I am concerned that switching Presidents in the middle of a war is a very bad thing. We must unite as a country. "United we stand, divided we fall."

God Bless

Bob

Let me throw out a question to ponder....As far as WMD's...some say that since we havent found any that they, dont and didnt exist....we havent found Usama bin Laden yet either, does that mean that he doesnt exist?

We must unite as a country. "United we stand, divided we fall."

Somehow the majority seems to have forgotten this. </font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> God Bless Our Great Country.
And It's a little known fact that on the seventh day after resting, and a few glasses of wine, God created the Camaro </pre>[/QUOTE]

the situation over there is going to get a LOT worse before it gets any better, but if we up and pull out now, just think of all the stuff that will be coming our way then- we will be seen as very weak and vulnerable. we do not want that- 9/11 will look like one of our happier days if we were to do that.
i see someone mentioned spending the money on Mars missions in the same sentence as he mentioned rebuilding the countries we bomb- they are totally different things, and one should never forget that the rockets might send probes far off into space, but all the money is spent right here- mostly in the USA- think of it as a public works program to keep all the scientists busy and keep them from dreaming of ways to use their knowledge to hurt us, or from working at McD's flipping burgers and being bitter and not sharing their knowledge and abilities with all of mankind. it also creates a lot of secondary jobs supporting the missions (people gotta physically BUILD the things, you know), creates good PR about the greatness of our country and the people that live here, adds to our knowledge of the universe, and is just flat out cool stuff. sounds like good policy to me.
the war, on the other hand, did not- and still does not- sound like good policy to me. it seems too much like settling an old family debt- and how many people STILL think Saddam and Iraq had anything at all to do with Al Queda and the things they did on 9/11/01? far too many. Saddam and Osama come from two opposing parts of the same basic religion, and really generally hate and distrust each other.
besides, are we gonna go after EVERY world leader we don't like? we gonna storm into Russia and take Putin hostage? France? Germany? Saudi Arabia? Libya?(i know, they caved in under a bit of pressure) North Korea? i'd guess not. there are also probably a hundred other countries we could invade for the same reasons we were told we went into Iraq, but without the oil and old family ties...
but, if you question the motives of the guys who sent our boys off to war in the desert, you are labelled unpatriotic and accused of not supporting the troops, and wanting the terrorists to win. is the world really that black and white to some people, or are they just toting the party line?
man, i LOVE the times we live in....

I just finished watching a movie called "The Patriot" staring Mel Gibson, it's about the American Revolutionary War.

It really depicts the sacrafices made in the name of freedom. If you haven't seen it or it's been a while since you have, it's well worth the rental fee. If you do watch it, pay close attention to the story around Mel's oldest son...

My opinion...
Chris, as Dennis said...Bush jr. wasn't just handed the keys to office by his father, he was elected by the people(us). We also didn't arrogantly ignore the rest of the worlds input, we had over 60 nations full support. Bush has a history of incompetence? Explain a little more fully...?
Shoddy, no end in sight? It's only been a year man, it's pretty tough to go in and liberate an entire country in a year. I mean we're still in Bosnia, Korea, Japan, Kosovo and Germany and that's been how many years??? There will be an end but no by June as President Bush said. The war also can't really be compared to Vietam, some believe that it's an unjust war and say that tons of American's are dying for no reason at all. As Dennis said, if you look at the numbers around 600 American's have died in Iraq and how many in Vietam...I'de say that 600 is a pretty low number in comparison.

By no means am I saying that the 600 lives don't matter or that's it's not a price to pay but as other people have said, I belive it's our job to play the big brother. Just as we did for France who now turned their back on us when we asked for help and how we helped Kosovo when the same nut that we now have captured was over there.
Royce, did they really enjoy their lives over there though? I mean, there were rape rooms, mass grave sites, innocent people being thrown off of buildings...and that's not their "right", the people of Iraq had no rights as far as Saddam was concerned. About the WMD's, he said he had them and would use them. He said he destroyed plans for them and has used them before...he violated 17 UN resolutions. Even if there's only one truck load of some form of chemical warfare somewhere hidden, how much of it does it take being dumped into a city's water system to kill how many people? Saddam Hussein had the capability to produce around 3 million barrels of oil a day, at about $25 dollars a barrel that's $750 million dollars PER DAY in oil revenue! Over the 11 years that he violated resolution after resolution he would have sold $230 BILLION dollars in oil! Why wouldn't he have let the UN inspectors in to search if he had nothing to hide?
By directing the above comments at Chris, shoddy and Royce. I wasn't trying to personally attack any of the three, just commenting on specific parts of their posts(no hostility intended is what I'm getting at).
Donnie
P.S. I'm only 17 and can't vote yet so as someone else said, my opinion doesn't matter yet but I just wanted to voice it a little bit.

Not to mention, every country INCLUDING France believed he had WMD's. I have some quotes from President Clinton, Madeline Albright, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy and so saying that Iraq was producing weapons of chemical and biological warfare and that it was an imminent threat to the United States.
Donnie

As I said before there is so much to say. There is no way I want to type everything good and bad about the war I only mentioned a few points that stood out at the time I was typing the original post. Not once did I say Iraq was a nice place to live. All I am saying is "IF" it is/was so bad to them why are they HATING us?

As far as WMD's, if you watched all the UN meeting/hearings before the war, they had pictures and could tell you right where the weapons are/were. Once we go in we can't find them, yet we could find Saddam hiding in a hole underground. Doesn't add up to me, If you fully "trust" our "leaders", I have some land I want to sell you.

Never did I say the war was not for a good cause, I just stated I thought it should have been handled a little differently. After all it is either a war or it's not. Personally if I get in a fight it is not a contest and there are no rules, I will use whatever I can get my hands on to end the fight as soon as possible without me getting the short end of the stick. We should have turned all that sand to glass and then cleaned up after the fact. I just hate to see American lives lost (as well as the few allies that stood behind us) and for the people there to still hate us and not want us there.

I also agree since we started it we have to finish, I just want it to end with as few US soldiers being killed/injured as possible. To me this means if one guy in a city even throws a rock towards one of us, we back out and bomb the whole darn city, that way even if they don't like us they will fear/respect us.

My Dad and uncles were/are all veterans so I will never ever turn my back on our troops or what they have done/are doing for us.

Comparing findig WMD's with finding Osama is not close to the same. They never knew where Osama was and he is much smaller than a factory or semi-truck (that they had pictures and maps of). I still think they will find him before they show us proof of WMD's. Even if they never find one WMD it doesn't matter we still needed to stop Saddam, my whole point was tell it like it is, not like you want it to be.

Saddam did break the rules of the UN resloution, most of it was by not allowing inspections and throwing the inspectors out of the country. Sure he was hiding something but, we just don't know what. He also made statements about all the chemical weapons he had stock piled and he was going to use them if we invaded Iraq. He never used them, because he didn't have them, he was bluffing, he got what he deserved for bluffing as well. He ruled his country by fear, power and lots of posturing, that just didn't work on us, Or did it?

In the end we will pay the price $$$ and there will still be people with out jobs (that are willing to work), medical care, homes, and food here in this country. 383 put it very well with his example of paying your neighbors house payment when you can't afford your own.

Most of us agree the war was for a good cause (me included), I just would have liked to have seen a few things done differently.

We are the United States of AMERICA not the United States of the WOLRD (that's the whole purpose of the UN). So if other countries are living in poverty and filth too bad, it is not our place to fix it, maybe they are happy that way. Once we get our crap together here, then lets become a little more world friendly with our tax $$$ and attempt to help those in need (that actually want our help).

Interesting discussion here.

Can I add some comments not being a citizen of the US of A but one of the European Union.

There was as you know may opinions over here before the start of the invasion of Iraq. Nobody really knew anything. The UN inspectors trying to find anything should have gotten some more time. I think the decission was a little to hasty.

I do fully agree with the intent of removing Saddam, and in retrospect it should have been done in 1991.

How ever, it looks like nobody had a plan for what to do when the war was "over". Nobody stopped the looting, it was total anarchy, and still is in some extent.

The lack of "after war planning" has given room for the present situation.

Looking back in the history of the whole middle east we can blame the Brittish. (They did screw up the world pretty much during the empire days). That part of the world didn't have any boundries back then, it was just different tribes that lived in various parts. Then came the Britts and found oil, to safegaurd the economical interests we westerners creates borders and fences. The Britts drawed up the borders for Iraq, not respecting the three major ethnical groups living there and still are. Because of this there is a big risk of war between these groups, all want to be in charge and collect the oilmoney. Different islamic leaders trying to take control.

We have it difficult to relate to these people as someone already said. Iraq has a large spread of their people, many are analphabetic and some are highly educated. Many has universityl academic graduations (most of those fled during the eighties when Iran and Iraq where at war to each other).

For the religious leaders it is very easy to gather the poor and non-educated to anti-USA actions. They simply don't know better, they just listen to their leader and do what he says. It is pretty much as the christian church did back in the medeival years in Europe.

The only thing is to stay there but Bush has to let the UN in on more of the restoring work.

In a few months the first selfruling government shall start its difficult task of ruling this melting pot, I hope that they can succeed.

I think that most of the Iraqie people want peace as we all do.


Jan

Bush ran two failed companies. His final business deal was put together by buddies of his and his father's. Daddy handed his life to him. He should be a failure but he has great connections. This offends me as an American. We’re told that Americans rise up by their bootstraps but this guy has a sweet life handed to him and we all suffer from his incompetence. He somehow makes it to be president. Unreal! Only in America. For him everything somehow just works out in the end. That’s why he no exit plan for Iraq. Things will just somehow work out.

I do realize he was voted in barely. I voted against him but I didn’t want to vote for Gore either. It was like voting for cancer or heart disease. They both suck lol. I wanted McCain.

Originally posted by Chris396:
Bush ran two failed companies. His final business deal was put together by buddies of his and his father's. Daddy handed his life to him. He should be a failure but he has great connections. This offends me as an American. We’re told that Americans rise up by their bootstraps but this guy has a sweet life handed to him and we all suffer from his incompetence. He somehow makes it to be president. Unreal! Only in America. For him everything somehow just works out in the end. That’s why he no exit plan for Iraq. Things will just somehow work out.

I do realize he was voted in barely. I voted against him but I didn’t want to vote for Gore either. It was like voting for cancer or heart disease. They both suck lol. I wanted McCain. ***Admin talk:
Chris - Your Bush bashing is way off topic and has not lent anything to the subject at hand. In many ways it's why we rarely allow these discussions to exist. I'm speaking not as a Bush supporter (I doubt you believe that though) and would comment the same had you used Clinton or Kerry or any other political target.

I thought these threads were not allowed here??

Anyways.. I support the war.. both in Afganistan (the war forgotton by the media because its a huge success) and the war in Iraq (or better, the resumption of hostilies from the 91 war).

Could you imagine if we had 24 hour news coverage to this level in WWII.. On D-day we would hear "1256 soldiers were killed in fighting today".. People would think we were loosing the fight.. the media dosent report about the calm spots in Iraq.. about schools opening or public works projects being completed.. just the body count on our side.. Note to Joe Public, WAR IS DANGEROUS..

Where was the media attention on the troops lost in Kosovo (with the vaunted UN mandate) or about our losses in Somalia??

I also love how some people would lay more blame on the administration of 7 months than the previous one of 8 years :rolleyes:

I have two teenage boys and I worry that when the draft comes back (and it will) will one of my boys be laying in a ditch in Iraq dead with a bunch of towel heads dancing around high 5'ing each other that they got another American ? I say pull out take the heat and let them sort it out. On a lighter note didn't Bush approve the deal that sent Sammy Sosa to the Cubs ?