hey guys,
i really need some help. i'm dropped in a 95 lt1 police motor and 4l60e. in a 69 camaro conv. i did as much research as i could. i didn't have the 3 conncetors, so i got i pin print out from aldata. and went by that.
all pink wires are connected to switched power. (only power on the ON postion, when cranking there is NO power)
orange wire to constant power
blk/wht to ground
purple wire from car to starter
i could not find the red wire. so i traced the red wire from black connector b-14. this wire has no power, which it should. so i jumped pink wire power to red wire but still no luck. so this is where i'm stuck. it car cranks i hear the computer clicking, the fuel primes. but no fire. i think this motor does not have VATS because its a police car motor but i could be wrong please help me. thanks to everyone reading this. Willie http://www.camaros.net/forum/confused.gif

Willieboy, Welcome
Sounds like an interesting swap going and it sounds like you've got a can of worms opened there and I can't make much sense of your post. But I would love to drive the car!

I can tell you this, all I work on is police cars so I may be able to help you some.

First on a 1995 LT1 Caprice (9C1) it is OBD1 and there are 4 connectors on the PCM. The colors are red, blue, black, & white (could be gray) I believe it's even stamped on the PCM. You've lost me there when you say three connectors.

I have never seen a 9C1 with VATS but I won't go out on a limb and say it isn't possible. However there is a fuse in the fuse panel marked "pass key" that goes to a relay in the left kick panel that will disable the ignition system. I ran into an intermitent no start and it ended up being this fuse where someone had been jamming a radio wire contact into it and spread the fuse holder contacts.

Many questions jump into my head when I think of this swap.

Are you trying to say you don't have the engine wiring harness for this engine?

Is the PCM for this engine/transmission, because they are VIN # specific?

What are you using for a fuel pump?

Do you have a left and right bank O2 sensor installed?

Are the following sensors hooked up MAF, TPS, IAC, CTS, knock, MAP, & VSS?

Torque converter switch?

Do you have the air intake sealed up (like stock), going into the throttle plates? Those engines won't run at all if "home plate" is off unless you block it off. I have plug I stick in there.


If you can post more info I will look at wiring diagrams and see if I can help you. Take you time and be clear about what you are writing.

Drew

[This message has been edited by drew69 (edited 12-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by drew69 (edited 12-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by drew69 (edited 12-19-2002).]

I'm with Drew on this one...gonna need some more info...
I am in the middle of swapping a 95 F body LT1 into an S10 and have done alot of research also, as well as bought a used set of helms books for the f body which may or may be able to help You...but I have all kinds of info bookmarked...and will be glad to try and help...

ok i will try to be clearer.
i bought a 95 9c1 police car complete and took the motor,trans,stock wiring harness,computer,acc,etc...
the best reference i found is a site called eric's lt1 swap. he list basic wiring hook-ups.
pink wires are switched 12 volt power.

orange wires are constant 12 volt power.

red wires are 12 volt switched power.

purple wire from car to starter.

black & white wire are ground.

i did not have the 3 white connector thats everyone speaks of.
so i got a print out from alldata for a 95 police car caprace.

(on the alldata print out. there is only one red wire it goes to a black connector on the pcm-marked b-14)this wire is suppose to have power when the ignition is on.
i traced it and the red wire goes to the omnispark.
there's no power to it now.

i tryed connecting the pink wires to the red wire since they are suppose to be switched power but no luck.
the car cranks, the in-tank fuel pump primes,and there is power to the fuse box that i removed with the lt1 set-upand is now in the camaro. when i hit the start position there is only power to the starter no power to any of the 12volt connections.ie-pink & red wire.

Willieboy,
OK I'm at work and I see the wires you are referring to.

The 4th connector on the PCM is clear (not white or gray).

You said you have access to ALLDATA. That's exactly what I'm looking at.
Follow this sequence for good connector views with a decription and view of each pin and connector for the PCM.

95' Chevy Caprice VIN "P" > Diagnostics & Repair > Powertrain Management > Computers & Control Systems > Engine Control Module > Diagrams > Connector Views

The above will be 4 pages, each page has a view of the colored PCM connectors and a table to show what each pin is for.

OK, now back up to computers & control systems and select electrical diagrams. On the sub menu click on system schematics. There will be 7 pages for the PCM.

Also under electrical diagrams you will see a sub title called PCM power & grounds which shows the orange, pink, & black & white wires you are speaking of. These power wires are feed from the underhood fuse panel. Fuse #2 - hot all the time - orange wires (2). Fuse #5 - hot in run or start position - pink wires (2). Black & white wires (4) are grounds and each one is in a different colored connector on the PCM, it shows which pin/cavity # on the diagram.

All these diagrams should put you on the way to rock & roll. Now you just have to figure out which wires to use on the Camaro to run the PCM.

Keep us posted.

------------------
Drew

99' GMC P/U
69' Camaro X-11 350/T350,AC,PS,PB, 12 Bolt
96' 17' CC KEY WEST w/85 Yamaha (has shark fins on the sides like the 69')

[This message has been edited by drew69 (edited 12-20-2002).]

This is wire 631?
If so, it should have power with key on and with "engine run". I guess I'm confused as this is one of the few +12vdc outputs from the PCM. Lets start at something that f#$ed me. The circuits on the old system are +keyoff, +Keyacc, +keystart and +keyrun. The old +keystart drops the voltage off when you turn the switch from start to run. The "start" circuit will only go to the starter circuit now and be sure NOT to use it for anything else.
The red wire will show +12vdc at the ISO extention cable. This connector is generally on the drivers side of the manifold and runs about a foot or so to the ISO. That cable does fail. Is there voltage at the PCM end of that connector when the ISO is disconnected? If there is you might have a shorted ISO a bad coil or coil wire. If there is no voltage, it could be a bad PCM but I really think you have the wrong power source. I used alldata and I found the ground schematics very helpful. especially the little bas%*$#s at the ignition module and coil area. Good luck and I hope this helps!


------------------
69 convertible
LT1 4L60E

ok, i will print it out. and double check all these connections. i'm on vacation next week so i will respond in 2 weeks. thanks everyone

Willieboy, you still have me thinking.

What are doing for a fuel pump? Fuel cell with high pressure pump? Return line?

You need 38 to 42 psi fuel pressure at idle for that engine to run right.

How about the left & right O2 sensors. What are you doing there? Welding bungs in on your exhaust pipes?

Good to hear you have the complete vehicle engine wiring harness, that makes it very easy. I wish you were close, I could wire that up easy and I would really like to see the end result. A 69' is easy a 1000 lbs. lighter than a 95' Caprice. If you can get the car to hooked up and the suspension is right all I can think about is "hang on". I take 9C1 Caprices to the limits of adhesion all the time on a closed course. Luckily we have no B4C Camaro's or I'd be in big trouble.

The first four pages (showing the PCM connectors) should be the biggest help . I had trouble finding them myself but I knew they were there which is why I put a step by step procedure to find them.

Also on the first post I spoke about the pass key fuse. That fuse is on the inside fuse panel and shouldn't come into play at all with what you are doing. If you see it on one of the PCM connectors just jump it and you will be fine.

Goodluck, Drew

[This message has been edited by drew69 (edited 12-20-2002).]

hey drew,
on the fuel pump i used a 255 liter in-tank from summit(walbro). forward & return lines are custom 3/8 aluminum line. i've been thinking about this for a while before i posted. i think i just have one wire either not hooked up or power thats hooked up wrong. i think the key is in the red wire that goes from the computer to the omnispark b-14. i can't figure out why there is no power to this wire when the power is on. again thanks for all your time

O2 sensors are welded in the headers with steel bungs & connected to the stock wiring harness.
i never even removed the harness plugs from the motor or trans. it was all swapped over in one complete unit.
the only wires that are not connected right now are:

blue wire (which i think goes to fuel pump but i connected a thicker light gray wire to the positive side of the fuel pump)
orange & black wire- neutral safety switch.
tan wire- adal

i think thats it. maybe one more but its to an accessory. well still http://www.camaros.net/forum/confused.gif but getting better. thanks

Willeboy, I can help you with the fuel pump from memory. On the 95' Caprice there is a 3 wire connector that went to the fuel pump module. The gray wire is the 12 volt positive (feed) for the fuel pump. I believe it is the center wire in the connector. The other two are, one is ground, one is for the fuel gauge. I can't recall the colors now. They should be 16 gauge wires.

There should also be a red wire with a 1/4" female spade terminal in a black one wire connector. This is a fuel pump "test" wire and will bypass the fuel pump relay (used for trouble shooting) and is not hooked up to anything. It is located in the harness on the right front fender, near the fuel pump relay or underhood fuse panel.

The b14 wire I would have to look at a diagram. I will check back on Monday.

I heading off to see the Jaguars play the Titans.

Keep at it, Drew

Willieboy,
Connector B, pin #14 is the output/voltage from the PCM to the distributor.

Check these two circuits, they are ignition feeds (2) to the PCM from fuse #5 in the underhood fuse panel. Both are pink wires, circuit #539.
On the PCM
Black connector - B pin #30
Blue connector - D pin #3

Both of these circuits should have 12 volts going into the PCM with key/ignition on for distributor voltage output (the B14 pin).

Drew

hey drew,
i really would like to thank you for the help. hopefully one of these days i can repay the favor. i hope you and you family have a safe and happy holiday. thanks,
willie

Willie, no repayment needed. That's what we're all here for. I like "special car projects" and I get paid for doing them. It's a learning process for me also because it sharpens my skills. It is not easy to solve car problems without seeing or hearing the problem. I think of this message board as taking my brain to the gym, it needs a workout too!

You have undertaken a serious project. My older brother lives in Morgan Hill down by San Jose so next time I get out your way maybe we can hook up and I can see the results. Don't get discouraged, sometimes you just have to put it down and walk away for another day. It never hurts to have a second set of eyes or ears give you a second opinion, I do it often. We all learn together.

Happy holidays to you and your family. My son just turned 21 on the 21st and finished school also the same week with an AAS degree, paid in full, so I can't ask for a much better holiday season. http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

Drew

hello everyone,
i hope everyone's holidays went well. ok, back to my little problem. with the help from drew.(thanks drew) i got the car to run, but it only runs for 3 seconds now. the motor sounds like its running out of gas. i put a fuel pressure gauge on the motor and the fuel is right. i'm thinking it maybe the oil pressure sensor. what do you guys think?
Willie

Sorry to bud in guys. hey red69camaro please email me i have a question not pertaining to this topic. thanks. jeoff

willieboy....only runs for 3 or so seconds???
By any chance, are You trying to run it without the MAF and the IAT sensors???

Been there done that http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif and it will make the engine do exactly what Your's is doing...

Hey Willie,

Glad to hear you got it fired up.

Do you have the 4" hole plugged up on the rubber air intake hose where the resonator (homeplate) goes on the throttle body. Those engines will start and die without that being plugged. I have a plastic beer mug that fits in there nicely when I work on them with "homeplate" off.

The oil pressure switch circuit is there if the fuel pump relay fails. The fuel pump will still run if the the oil pressure switch sees 4 psi of oil pressure. This condition will cause long cranking times of the engine before starting.

Do you have the data link connector (DLC) still attached to the wiring harness where you can hook up a scanner? The PCM looks for a high and a low resolution signal (two circuits) from the opti spark (distributor) in order to run. You can look at these values with a scanner.

Drew

i sealed the homeplate with a plug from home depot. but i will reseal it again just to be sure. i swapped the motor, trans and wiring harness over in one piece so nothing was unpluged. the motor ran fine when pulled. i do not have the adal hooked up yet. still working on that wiring. oil and volt gauges are not working yet. there is a voltage drain from some where in the car. the battery is dead after a day or two. i charged the battery for two days and now the alternator hums. well i'm still stumpped.

You've got me confused? And I can't find my Summit catalog.
First when you say its a 255l pump. Whats the pressure? It has to be at least 35Lbs.

Second, Does it take a few good turns for it to start? The oil pressure sensor on the back of the motor is in parallel with the fuel pump relay. If the relay goes bad or drops out, as long as it has oil pressure the sensor will keep the fuel pump on. It sounds strange that about the time yours builds up pressure it dies.
The Lt1 was really designed to stay running with about any type of sensor failure except the map generally won't let it start when there is a bad vacumn leak. Aside from the general checking of hoses, check the foam seal under the map. also check the line from the valve cover to the throttle body If indoubt, plug it where it comes out of the valve cover AND where it goes into the TB. Check the PVC under the TB.
Next is the idle air adjustment. If the engine got any moisture into the TB when it set, it ruins the IAC. Pullit off of the front of the TB. If its rusty its junk. If it looks ok gently back the motor in about two turns to give it more air and put it back in. If it starts and stays at a fast idle its stuck.
The only other thing I can think of is when you turn the key back from start to run its shutting something off. The key "start" position only goes to the starter and no where else.

All the greif will be worth it the first time you go WOT!!
Good luck!

------------------
69 convertible
LT1 4L60E

i fixed the short and i resealed the homeplate ducting. fuel pressure is 43 psi. i will go home and check all connections and plugs. well its getting there slowly. but its getting there. :smile:

i checked all the connections & plugs. for the life of me i figure this one out. well i will go into my garage and stare at it some more tonight.

Hey Will, is that you? Its Matt, Matt's Classic Bowties!

Check to see if there is a Dark Blue wire at the PCM Red connector terminal 25. (A25)

[This message has been edited by 18436572 (edited 01-16-2003).]

ok i will check tonight to see if there is a wire at terminal a25 red, what am i looking for at that terminal?

hey matt whats up? camaro is still not running but almost there. matt, i just bought a 1970 chevelle conv. i need some more parts, cut me a deal again buddy? http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

there is a dark blue wire at terminal red a25. why whats up with that wire? http://www.camaros.net/forum/confused.gif

willie.....OK....here is where I can and can't help You. I threw this one out there just as a guess.

A24 is for circut 229, which is the final signal from the VATS/Passkey system. The PCM has to see a 50hz signal on this line for the PCM to say ok- I am ready to start/stay running.

From reading what You and Drew have posted, the police cars did not have VATS??? I don't have a Caprice manual....My manuals are for the 95 F body.

I am wondering what GM did on these to disable the VATS system. The easiest way would be to disable it in the programming and have that circut in all the harnesses, but I am not sure what they did since I do not have the correct manual in front of Me.

I would try to get a hold of a scan tool and see if fuel is enabled or disabled in the PCM if it was Mine.

Maybe Drew can check His info and shed some light on this.

IF this IS the case, You will have a few options...1) have VATS Disabled from the PCM by one of the reprogrammers out there (You will probably have to have gear ratio and tire size reprogrammed anyway for correct trans operation) 2) Buy a VATS bypass module 3) Build Your own bypass module (I can give You a link to the info)

Maybe this is something, maybe not, but it is something to rule out. Let Us know what you find.

Hey Guys, I've never seen the VATS system used on a police car however the wiring and module (if I recall) are still there. Fuse #36 on the interior fuse panel is for pass key and I have run into a problem there once with a fuse holder that was spread apart causing intermitent no starts. GM used a relay in the left front kick panel to bypass the pass key system on every 9C1 94'/95' I've worked on. I will dig up some wiring diagrams and check further. I'm real busy today so I won't be able to look till Tuesday. The pass key system diabled the starter and fuel system so it's possible something is going on there.
Drew

Will, I've been giving your problem some thought. This is from an earlier post I made.

There should also be a red wire with a 1/4" female spade terminal in a black one wire connector. This is a fuel pump "test" wire and will bypass the fuel pump relay (used for trouble shooting) and is not hooked up to anything. It is located in the harness on the right front fender, near the fuel pump relay or underhood fuse panel.

If you take a jumper wire w/20 amp fuse and put 12 volts to this wire you will bypass the fuel pump relay, oil pressure switch, AND the PASSKEY system (fuel pump enable) in the PCM. It will puts 12 volts right to your fuel pump. This test will prove if your PCM is shutting off the fuel pump or not. Goodluck and keep us posted.

If you have the DLC connector hooked up and a TechII it would help a great deal. You can look at "fuel enabled" and the scanner indicates yes or no.

Drew

i took the car to my friends shop.
he does not have a tech II but he hot wired the fuel pump. he said the computer is shutting down. on the blue small gauge fuel pump wire, i get 5 to 11 volts. which i should only get 2.5 volts. he thinks that i may have shorted some thing out in the computer upon install. i'm trying to get a computer from a guy on the Z28 site. thanks guys. will let everyone know whats up.

hello everyone.

i'm stuck and i need some help,
the problem is in the fuel circuit. with the fuel pump disconnected and spraying carb cleaner, she will run all day. i'm running a in-tank 255l walbro pump (i got this from jegs. its brand new)but its for a mustang. this fuel pump should be a universal pump but i may be wrong. could the pulse be different? the black wire from the pump is to ground, the red wire from the pump is to a light gray (16 gauge)wire that goes to fuse panel connected to the computer. the only wire not hooked up is the blue (22 gauge) wire. i think this wire is suppose to be hooked to the fuel gauge. we tryed to power the light gray wire direct but it still does the same (runs for 3 seconds then dies). any thoughts would really help. thanks, willie

Hey Willie,
Don't know where your getting this blue wire from. On a 95' 9C1 the fuel pump module has all (3) 16 gauge wires to it. Black = ground, Gray = 12 volts for fuel pump, Purple = sending unit for gauge.
Hook a fuel pressure gauge up on the fuel rail tap you need 38 to 42 psi at idle. May increase slighty when the throtle opens but it should drop back to this range. Make sure fuel pressure remains in this range with the pump off (after intial fuel charge) to see if you could have a bad pressure regulator or leaking injectors.
Drew

tryed that. i'm stuck and runnig out of time now. i think i'm going to have to buy a painless wiring harness. jc whitney has it for about 500 dollars anyone know of a place thats cheaper? oh will thanks a million Drew.

hey drew,
do you think it may be the vats?
may be i cut a wire on the vats .
its the only thing i really didn't check yet.
how do you check it anyway on a 9c1?
thanks,
willie

Willie,
What happens if you run a straight 12 volt jumper wire from the battery to your fuel pump? What's the fuel pressure reading & will the engine run? I will have to look up the PCM wiring diagram again to check the fuel pump enable switch (internal) for the pass key.
Drew

i tryed to run a hot to the fuel pump and the cars still dies after 3 seconds.

Disconnect one of the injector electrical connectors...

Hook up a digital voltmeter in place of the injector...

Watch the voltage(it is only going to give an average reading) and look for a loss of voltage(drop to zero volts) when the engine shuts off...
I have a set of "noid lights" that I use for this and I don't want to tell You to use a testlight without knowing the resistance of the bulb as it could cause the same condition we are looking for if the resistance was too low....the voltmeter will suffice for this test...(hope that made sense)

This will check to see if the PCM is shutting down the injectors, if that is the case, You will HAVE to get a hold of a scanner and see what is going on....

Willie, The only thing the pass key does on the PCM you have is disable the starter and fuel pump. Since you have bypassed these two circuits the problem has to be elsewhere.
Drew

looks like i'm going to have to buy a painless wiring kit. i will let you know what i find. thanks guys. if you ever need anything in san francisco just ask. thanks Drew.

Willie
try
http://jimsperformance.com/
for help
send them your wiring
Larry

Willie
try
http://jimsperformance.com/
for help
send them your wiring
Larry

Contact Street and Performance in Mena, Arkansas. They will be able to help you with your wiring problems and fix it for you. Their number is 479-394-5711

i have a 69 camaro conv. and i tryed to install a 9c1 lt1 motor. i ran in some electrical problems. these guys really helped me out. Bill McCann ( he looked up the wiring diagram from this old work) this played a major roll. Chesee48 ( sold me a computer for hella cheap). and Jon Mesenbrink programed it for me for free. and last but not least Drew69 (his guy emailed me everyday with a new idea with what maybe wrong).
so alittle info. for you guys doing a lt1 swap with a 9c1. everyone thinks that there is no vats. but there is. it gets the signal from someware else. so when you do the swap. the vats is enabled.
this took me over 4 months to figure out and these guys helped me all the way. thanks a million.


__________________
69 camaro convertible lt1
graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Glad to hear you got it all worked out,I've been playing with the thought of doing the same,but was unsure if I want all the hassle of doing the wiring myself.The thought of spending $400.-$700. on wiring,seems cazy.I think I'm going wire it myself if it was easy it would'nt be anyfun!!!!!

when you'r ready let me know. i will do what i can to help. it all depends on if you need the car everyday or not.and how fat you'r wallet is.