Does any of you have used this gadget to improve the cooling system? Does it work?
BRA-3500-01 The Flow Kooler water pump conversion disc rivets to the back of a six-bladed star impeller, reducing open areas around the impeller for at least 60 percent more coolant flow. Try one before shelling out a bunch of money for a new cooling system.


http://store.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/BRA-3500-01_m.jpg


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Our affair with Camaros is a live sentence without the possibility of parole. www.geocities.com/c68ss (http://www.geocities.com/c68ss) http://home.coqui.net/borench

I would be skeptical of such a gaget. If it were helpful and/or desirable, the factory would have designed them that way. With 60% more flow, would the water be in the radiator long enough to be cooled effectivly?

I agree with Kyvox.. a big percentage of cooling is leaving the heated fluid in the system exposed to the cooling elements long enought to pull the heat out.
Same in your home a/c units. By slowing the air flow, you allow more humidity to be drawn away from the air. Too fast and you have cool,damp air.
Same in cooling fluid in a car, you need the time to draw the heat out, too fast and you will have overheating.
click

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69RS 350/255 LM1,TH350,Dover White,Blue Vinyl top
F&R spoilers,pdb,ps,am/fm,4.10 Posi.,A/C,
fold down rear seat.
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

I had put one of these in my dirt car a few years back,it did help some ,but that motor was slung from 3000 to 7000 rmp's lap after lap .
I think it has to do with cavition(sp?)or something!
this system also had a restrictor in place of the thermostat.
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"Drive it like you stole it"
67 327,4spd,3.73(with big holes cut in the dash!)
70 454,400th,3.08
00 SS,NBM,CHROME ZR1'S,CME
(AKA 4 speed)

[This message has been edited by fastorange67 (edited 05-20-2002).]

Thanks, just checking the different low bucks alternatives to mild overheating. I'm not accustomed to see the temp needle up to 200°F and after the A/C install, it gets there, but just under heavy traffic at over 90° ambient. I have a 160° thermostat already installed and today I ordered a 14" electric fan with a thermo switch to control it. I have heard, and understand, that the water or cooling fluid needs to be inside the motor for a specific amount of time to do its job. But what's the use of a high flow water pump then, just a catch to make us spend more money?

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Our affair with Camaros is a live sentence without the possibility of parole. www.geocities.com/c68ss (http://www.geocities.com/c68ss) http://home.coqui.net/borench

That disc changes your water pump from an open impeller design to a closed impeller design which will improve the amount of flow the pump can move at any given RPM. All of the higher dollar water pumps come with these already installed.

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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11
My 69 L48 - 350/300HP Engine (http://www.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/transparent%20air%20cleaner3.jpg)

AC cars came and were designed with a 195 deg stat back in the day. They also got a thermal clutch and fan to help keep cooling under control. I don't recall your combo but it sounds like air flow from your discription of the problem. Heavy traffic and sitting at stop lights you are sucking in hot exhaust from the cars around you. Is there a problem sitting in the driveway idling under the same conditions but without the other cars? If not 200 isn't that hot that it will cause a problem. I do recomend the 195 stat over the 160 though. Think of the stat as a switch that controls the fluid flow in the cooling system. If you use a 160 the fluid will flow sooner but the rest of the system must work so well that it lowers the temp below 160 or it's like not running a stat at all. With the 195 you'll have a better shot at the stat opening and closing and regulating the system as it is susposed to... If you didn't have the air I'd say stay with 180....

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_03.jpg), the '96 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_02.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

Dennis,

Do you think that changing my 180 degree thermostat to a 195 degree thermostat may help my cooling problems? I played with the timing and idle mixture and it helped a little, but the temp still climbs at idle, albeit a little slower now.

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Justin Traunero
justin.traunero@furman.edu
The Club - GM Muscle Cars of the Carolinas (http://gmcarolinas.proboards10.com/)

-1967 Camaro SS350 clone - 350/TH-350 with shift kit, CompCams XE268H, Dynomax Jet-Hot headers, Flowmaster American Thunder exhaust, Vintage Air

-2002 Impala LS - Medium Bronzemist Metallic, every option except engine block heater

<A HREF="http://www.furman.edu/~jtrauner" TARGET=_blank>Click here to see my Camaro and my parents' 2002 Impala LS.
</A>

My car has the sb fan shroud with a 23" rad. It also has the thermal clutch with original fan blade. Haven't let it idle for too long at home but don't think it goes so high. I'll check tomorrow, outside in the sun for at least 15/20 min?? I'll let you know anyway. Don't think 200° is too much either and it goes to 185° as soon as the car starts to move, thats the reason I ordered a fan. As soon as the fan is installed I'm gonna test the 185° stat as Dennis suggest, maybe that way the temp needle will stabilize in one spot like my daily driver.

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Our affair with Camaros is a live sentence without the possibility of parole. www.geocities.com/c68ss (http://www.geocities.com/c68ss) http://home.coqui.net/borench

Orench,

Sounds like you are having the same issues I am having with my 67. I've got the narrower radiator, but it is a 4 core unit. Let me know what happens with the fan on there and the 195 degree thermostat....I'd be very interested to see if these fix the problems.

By the way, how are you going to mount the fan? I'd really like the needle to stabilize in one spot, as this car is my daily driver!!

PS: Gorgeous 68 you have there!!
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Justin Traunero
justin.traunero@furman.edu
The Club - GM Muscle Cars of the Carolinas (http://gmcarolinas.proboards10.com/)

-1967 Camaro SS350 clone - 350/TH-350 with shift kit, CompCams XE268H, Dynomax Jet-Hot headers, Flowmaster American Thunder exhaust, Vintage Air

-2002 Impala LS - Medium Bronzemist Metallic, every option except engine block heater

<A HREF="http://www.furman.edu/~jtrauner" TARGET=_blank>Click here to see my Camaro and my parents' 2002 Impala LS.
</A>

[This message has been edited by jrt67ss350 (edited 05-20-2002).]

If you guys run an electric fan it's my experience that the temp will flucuate between the temp that the fan comes on at and the temp that the thermostat opens at. My 96 runs 210 sitting in traffic on a warm day but turn the air on (fans come on) and it drops to 185-190 at the most. It always runs 185 when moving. My 69 is way more stable at 190 in traffic and warm/hot day with the clutch fan. Moving it doesn't get over 180.

Both work, I just perfer less fluctuation...

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_03.jpg), the '96 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_02.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

Thanks for the comments Justin. I ordered this unit http://store.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/norm/PRM-19114_m.jpg in 14" as mentioned before. The mounting spot will be between the grill and the rad, at the drivers side of the center header panel reinforcement. By loking at this fan, I know I have to made some brackets, and maybe locate some wire mesh on top of it to avoid accidents. The selection was based on CFMs produced, if there is something that I hate, is the chance of having to turn the A/C off while waiting in line to enter a car show. I've seen this happen to a lot of guys and I simply wouldn't resist that. What is the use of having an A/C then? http://personal.clt.bellsouth.net/clt/m/g/mgervin/smilies/flash.gif

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Our affair with Camaros is a live sentence without the possibility of parole. www.geocities.com/c68ss (http://www.geocities.com/c68ss) http://home.coqui.net/borench

Today's conditions; new 16 lbs rad cap, new 180° stat, 90° ambient temp, car idling 15 min under the sun with A/C on. Max temp got to 195°. As soon as I drove the car around it went to 180°. Next test will be, same conditions but with the 14" elect fan installed. Results will be posted as soon as the fan get installed. http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

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Our affair with Camaros is a live sentence without the possibility of parole. www.geocities.com/c68ss (http://www.geocities.com/c68ss) http://home.coqui.net/borench




[This message has been edited by ORENCH (edited 05-21-2002).]

Wow, if mine climbed to 195 and stayed there, I'd be thrilled. Mine does the same, but just keeps on climbing indefinitely with the A/C on or off...faster if the A/C is on.

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Justin Traunero
justin.traunero@furman.edu
The Club - GM Muscle Cars of the Carolinas (http://gmcarolinas.proboards10.com/)

-1967 Camaro SS350 clone - 350/TH-350 with shift kit, CompCams XE268H, Dynomax Jet-Hot headers, Flowmaster American Thunder exhaust, Vintage Air

-2002 Impala LS - Medium Bronzemist Metallic, every option except engine block heater

<A HREF="http://www.furman.edu/~jtrauner" TARGET=_blank>Click here to see my Camaro and my parents' 2002 Impala LS.
</A>

Orench,

I have one of those "gadgets" on my '68 327. Yes, it did make a difference, especially when coming off of the highway. My car gets cooler much faster and it lowered the temp. some too. I wouldn't hesitate to install another one. I'd reccomend the piece to anyone.

Hopefully those are stainless steel rivets...

The old water pumps used a cast iron impeller which was flat on the rear. The new stamped steel impellers aren't as efficient due to leakage around the rear where that disc goes.

Also, most pumps have too large an impeller to housing clearance on the forward side.
The "trick" Moroso impeller pumped less water than a good old cast impeller for me.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

See below

[This message has been edited by HOTRODSRJ (edited 05-23-2002).]

I would like to chime in here on a couple of topics to clear some widely held myths up. Cooling systems is my ticket.

Myth number one... slowing or restricting coolant flow in the system does not improve cooling and in fact degradates cooling. Flow is king both in water and air for the disposition of heat. What sits in the radiator longer sits in the engine longer too, and when coolant absorbs less heat as it approaches it's corrected vapor point, it loses it ability to absorb heat at a faster rate, therefore leaving more heat behind to build in the motor. Faster is better.

Myth number two....thermostat changing will affect the cooling ability of the system. NOT! Thermostats have absolutely no affect on temperature on systems that consistently run over the opening point of that thermostat. In other words, changing from a 195 to a 160 when the system indicates 210 all the time will not change the 220 one ioda given the same circumstances or visa versa. Changing to a higher thermostat won't help the cooling system either, but might help the engine run better depending on temperature selection. The thermostat will open sooner or later on initialization. Look for another issue if your system is running over the thermostat opening all the time. It's a capacity issue, not a thermostat issue.

Myth number three.....old water pumps are good. Not so. If you buy a quality and proven aftermarket high performance water pump, they will produce on average 40% more flow than the old stock ones. I know, because I have tested most of them. The older cast stockers are junk compared to a Edelbrock, Tuffstuff, Stewart to name just a few. One of the reasons that you can put another 100hp into the very same cooling system that used to handle 100hp less is that the improvements in water flow and airflow that are available today.

The 14" fan that is pictured may add some cfms to the fray, but needs a shroud to be effective in it's job. I hope you have one for it. Otherwise, you are wasting up to 60% of the airflow on eddy currents that do not flow thru the radiator at all.

For more on cooling, go to my cooling forum at www.inccn.net/techforum.htm (http://www.inccn.net/techforum.htm) for information and tips. Enjoy!

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STEVE JACK
ConceptOne Pulleys and Brackets
Techical forum/links at www.inccn.net/techforum.htm (http://www.inccn.net/techforum.htm)

Steve, the only part of your opinion I am compelled to disagree with is;

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Myth number one... slowing or restricting coolant flow in the system does not improve cooling and in fact degradates cooling. Flow is king both in water and air for the disposition of heat. What sits in the radiator longer sits in the engine longer too, and when coolant absorbs less heat as it approaches it's corrected vapor point, it loses it ability to absorb heat at a faster rate, therefore leaving more heat behind to build in the motor. Faster is better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is the only reason every auto manufacture includes a thermostat with every car they sell for cold weather warm up? I think it goes beyond that. Ever run your finger through the flame of a candle? You can pass it right through if you keep it moving and it won't burn you. Your finger is like the fluid (I'll refer to it as water) in a cooling system. Let your finger sit in the flame and it will heat up to the point you can't stand it and you'll end up burning yourself! (don't try this at home kids) It takes time to heat up water in a pan just like it takes time to heat up water in a block. I believe the stat is a switch that is designed to turn on and off to balance heat transfer in both the block and radiator core.

Our cars cooling systems were designed by automotive engineers. I know not every idea to come off the drawing board is a winner but basically the one every manufacture of water cooled engines chose to use works.

Aftermarket companies revel in confusion and dispelling myths and it sells their products. There are only 2 things a factory cooling system needs and that's something to reduce corrosion and in colder climates something to inhibit freeze up! I'll throw in a 3rd and that's proper maintance. That's why manufactures use anti-freeze and water mixed in cooling systems.

Many of us strive to bring our old cars up to modern standards and in doing so end up re-engineering tried and true designs. For handling it's a big plus. For cooling it can be done but does it really need to be done. Growing up in the 60's and 70's I didn't see cars overheating all over the place! Even cars from the 50's got along fine... Todays modern cooling systems have changed because the design of automobiles has changed! Things like large open grills are a thing of the past. 23" 4 cores won't be found on new cars as well. The engine compartment of new cars is sealed and has panels and baffeling to direct air flow. Our old cars are open and can't be compared to todays designs.

Where I'm going with this is if you restore your cooling system to stock design and it's in good maintaince you'll have less problems and spend less money along the way. It will be easier to adjust for performance mods like increased compression as well. From the factory most vehicles in the 60's and '70's came with a 180 stat. If it had higher compression or AC then it got a 195 stat and maybe a thermal fan clutch. Only lack of maintaince caused failures back then....

First, let me thank you for the invaluable info Steve. Now, assuming that I build a fan shroud for the electric fan mentioned above or exchange it for a diff version, install the back plate to my water pump, keep the 16 lbs rad cap, original metal fan(thermal)w/original shroud & 3 row/23" rad core.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Am I better with the 180° stat or a 195°.
<LI>Should I turn on the electric fan with the compressor signal (even when it is gonna be cycling on/off as the compressor does) or use a thermo switch.
<LI>If it's better a thermo switch; whats better, 185°on/170°off or 200°on/185°off.
[/list]
This is the fan with the home made shroud.
http://home.coqui.net/borench/fan2.jpg
I would like to run at no more than 200° on heavy traffic. My car is a 350 ci with stock internals but the 280H Comp Cams and roller rockers, headers & 2-1/2" exhaust system, upgraded HEI, 600cfm holley with Performer RPM manifold and A/C. Any input will be appreciated.

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Our affair with Camaros is a live sentence without the possibility of parole. www.geocities.com/c68ss (http://www.geocities.com/c68ss) http://home.coqui.net/borench



[This message has been edited by ORENCH (edited 05-25-2002).]

Dennis, just some comments....no disrespect meant....I would like to constructively address/rebut some of your comments however.

You said, "Is the only reason every auto manufacture includes a thermostat with every car they sell for cold weather warm up? I think it goes beyond that. Ever run your finger through the flame of a candle? You can pass it right through if you keep it moving and it won't burn you. Your finger is like the fluid (I'll refer to it as water) in a cooling system. Let your finger sit in the flame and it will heat up to the point you can't stand it and you'll end up burning yourself! (don't try this at home kids) It takes time to heat up water in a pan just like it takes time to heat up water in a block. I believe the stat is a switch that is designed to turn on and off to balance heat transfer in both the block and radiator core."........The wrong comparison here is the finger which does not translate to btu absorbtion and/or heat distribution and/or disposition. It's apples and watermellons, simply no relationship. On another front, the water in the pan is heating up quickly...you just don't realise it unless you put a thermometer in and monitor it over time. In fact, the cooler the water, the faster it will absorb btus. A 100 to 120 degree rise will take alot longer than a 120 to 140 degrees for example. Its the same rise in total degrees tho. This is why you can't let water sit in the block. In that radiators are a closed system, while the radiator is cooling at a certain rate, because the water in the block is at a higher temperature and constantly rising, it will always have a situation of diminishing returns in that the water will progressively absorb less btus as time passes. This means that the left over heat will be retained in the block and you have a run away situation. You have to move coolant quickly to keep it as cool as possible and it will displace more btus as a result because it's absorbtion rate is higher per unit when it's cooler. The radiator will hopefully be designed to outstrip the ability of the engine to make heat under all conditions therefore moving coolant thru the radiator will always be cooler the faster it moves.

BTW, I was not indicative of no thermostat as well. I agree that the thermostat is there for a purpose and that is to regulate the operating temperature of entire engine.....not the cooling capacity (don't confuse capacity with temperature). At least that's the way it was taught to me in dynamics and fluids in engineering school. Hasn't failed me so far.

You also said, "Our cars cooling systems were designed by automotive engineers. I know not every idea to come off the drawing board is a winner but basically the one every manufacture of water cooled engines chose to use works." ....my comments are...First, I am an automotive engineer and design cooling systems for all kinds of vehicles (used to design nuclear vessel cooling systems). All cooling systems are based on physics and science and that's why they work. I may have misinterpreted your intent here.....sorry if I am off.

Also, you said "Aftermarket companies revel in confusion and dispelling myths and it sells their products." ......whilst I agree that marketing is inherently fraudulant, that doesn't mean I am.....I am not selling anything here. Just basic science and physics..that's all. I can sort thru the BS of many if not all these guys. I do marketing myself as well.

You said, "Growing up in the 60's and 70's I didn't see cars overheating all over the place! Even cars from the 50's got along fine.."...and "Where I'm going with this is if you restore your cooling system to stock design and it's in good maintaince you'll have less problems and spend less money along the way". ..I agree if you have the very same stock components that the stock system will work.....however, I don't necessarily agree with today's hotrods and my point is that you didn't see many 400+hp narrow nosed streetrods running around in 100 degree heat in traffic with air blowin cold and still cooling either. My first car a 65 Impala SS with a pultry 325hp with factory air overheated all the time in traffic in Indiana. Only a fraction of the cars then had a heat generating systems like air. Once again, stock is okay for stock engines, but with all the goodies that everyone puts on our cars today, including alot more hp on the street, air, big stall converters, run them in hot temps in traffic and all of mine cool perfectly. For example, my wife's 69 ragtop is 400+ hp, cold air and will sit and idle in hotlanta traffic for hours. I don't think anything stock-parts will suffice for that car. The reason is aftermarket products that are far superior to the stock components such as high performance water pumps, aluminum radiators, high CFM fans etc. Not only are they far superior in performance, but reliability too. MTBFs are on average double or triple that of just 20 years ago, depending on the product.

Sorry, didn't mean to give a discertation on all this. Just more science and engineering dribble.

ORENCH......any one of those thermostats will do just fine for your application.

134 air conditioning systems like airflow when on and building heat in the radiator also should dictate that when the air is going the fan should run. I run them all the time on all my vehicles.

Whatever you do, design the whole system first for the fan, thermostat and sensing circuit in concert. The objective is to get the fan to quit running when running down the road and enough ambient airflow is cooling the engine to make it stay on the thermostat regulating point. For example. You chose a 180 thermostat. The fan should come on at 200 and shut off at 185. If you chose a sensing circuit to bring the fan on at 180 and shut off at 170, the fan will run all the time. By doing the fan like suggested, anytime the engine is cooling on the thermostat opening point, the fan will remain off.

Am I too long or what?


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STEVE JACK
ConceptOne Pulleys and Brackets
Techical forum/links at www.inccn.net/techforum.htm (http://www.inccn.net/techforum.htm)

[This message has been edited by HOTRODSRJ (edited 05-24-2002).]

Hey fellas, wait for me. I am an automotive engineer for GM for over 25 years. I have been part of just about every type of project that you can imagine.

Just some comments. Hotrod's comments are right on with respect to flow in a cooling system. More is better. If you were to take out the thermstat and not create a laminar flow situation, the temperature gauge would never reach the operating temp in many, if not all situations. Not good for optimizing temperature for all the lubricants and fuel dispersement, and combustion.

Dennis is right on with the thermostat being a management tool more than anything. It's there just to control the range of operating temperature. Hotrod's comments about changing thermostats and systems capacity is also correct. The thermostat does not affect the ability of the system to cool.

New cars have progressed to the extent that the cooling systems are far more efficient than a cooling system of yesteryear and displace far more heat per radiator area as well. Because of weight issues, and the limitation of frontal area available, radiator area today is very limited in space and the use of higher flowing water pumps and aluminum radiators married to high output cooling fans is the reason it can be done. Some of today's stock four and six cylinder water pumps flow 150% of what the old so called "high output" pumps of the 60s and 70s.

I love the site, relatively new here and learning from you guys. I hope respectfully that I can contribute once in awhile.



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See the USA in your CHEVROLET Randy E.

My understanding is also that more flow is better.

If you think about it, keeping coolant in the radiator longer would only be beneficial if it was only going through once and not being recirculated. Then you would want more time for heat absorbsion. But in reality, coolant passing through a radiator is replaced with more coolant as fast as it leaves the radiator; the metal of the radiator is always in contact with coolant.