Anybody have their car appraised for insurance purposes? If so, what was your experience? I had my 69 RS appraised by a guy in Denver with all sorts of credentials. While he was walking around the car, I was showing and telling him of all the documentation, all numbers match and so on. He was only interested in the chips in the glass, paint scratches, torn headliner, etc... All that stuff can be fixed. Does it not matter that the car is all original? Should the RS option bring in some additional value? Anyway he appraised it for less than what I paid for it and am a little disgruntled with appraisers.

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"All-muscle, all-car, without a tacky piece of gingerbread anywhere."

When i had mine appraised for insurance I asked three different appraisors if a number matching drive train made a difference in the value. The answer was no. They look at the overall condition of the vehicle and it's components and factor in the local market value. I was told by all three that a numbers matching all original car was more valuable to a purest or collector. That did not mean that it could not be sold for more than the appraised value.

My car was appraised for less than what I paid for it, but it is what I wanted and I have no regrets.

Todd.

I think it is important to have an appraiser that is knowledgeable about the current market and not just use the NADA or other publications. I don't understand that if the purpose of the appraisal is for insurance and the real value is greater than you paid how you could be satisfied that it appraised for less. Ask for the qualification of your appraiser. If you need a referral I could put you in contact with my guy here and he may have a recommendation. I have been updating my appraisals every 6mo-1yr. As is easily proven in the market a number matching drivetrain does increase the value of the car!Examople: a NOM Z28 can bring 20%-30% less than one that is numbermatching. Jim

I agree. The car's current market value should be what the appraiser comes up with. That means all factors regarding the car are taken into consideration which includes numbers matching components, documentation and history.



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Scott- Austin, Texas
My '68 RS/ZZ4 (http://www.100megsfree.com/choptop/camaro.html)

There's a problem that arrises with appraisers as I see it. To make money an appraiser has to appraise more than one type or brand of vehicle. To be well versed in all possible car makes and models would take a super human. Look at McNeish as an example, I understand it's more than a grand plus travel expenses to have him certify your Z/28. I guess that's kinda the ultimate appraisal of sorts. What you get for a few hundred is going to be mostly based on condition. Now not saying these jack of all make and model appraisers don't have a specialty vehicle or two. Someone like Jim would be in a good position to recomend an appraiser that specializes in Camaros and matching numbers.

I suggest doing some homework on your own, it's not too hard to come up with a ball park value with the resources we have available today. From there get refrences and as Jim recomends qualifications as it applies to your make and model. I didn't need an appraisal with Hagarty, they accepted the value I gave and wrote it into an agreeded policy. Makes me think maybe I didn't value it high enough since they didn't flinch.

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/ww.jpg), the '96 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg) our local club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"
and the "daily driver" (http://chevelles.com/showroom/DjD/dsc00016.jpg)

Dennis, I think you can go to $20 or $25k before they require an appraisal. I bought a truck at Barrett Jackson and insured it for $5000 more than I paid at $25k. The Hagerty reps were there and took a picture and wrote the coverage on the spot. So far they have been great to deal with, of course the money has been flowing one way!! The appraiser I use is almost fanatical with his knowledge of the cars of the 60's. He keeps all the info on disc and the appraisals are very professional and easily updated. He can be found on the Yenko.net site as tom406. Jim

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'69 original 25000 mi. Lemans Blue Yenko Camaro, '70 Yenko Nova Deuce, '66 L79 Nova

[This message has been edited by NWYENKO (edited 01-31-2003).]

Jim...Do you have your appraiser's phone number handy? Is he located here in Seattle?Could I talk you into e-mailing it to me? I have'nt had one done in a couple years. Regarding the question about the added value of the R/S option,I looked up my car's value on NADA.com last night (it is a '69 Z/28-R/S)and they are showing a Z/28 w/o the R/S option to have a high of $41,200 but a Z/28 w/ the R/S option lower at $39,700. I e-mailed them and their response was that a base Z/28 is more desirable then with the R/S option. Yet, if you have any other Camaro and add the R/S option it adds 15%! Can't figure that one out. Thanks!

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69' Z/28-R/S, X-33, Rallye Green, Chambered Exhaust,All #'s Match

[This message has been edited by winmon (edited 01-31-2003).]

His name is Tom Breske and can be reached at Memory Lane in Tukwila (206)575 1258. He is really a great and very knowledgable guy. I think the R/S option actually adds about $5000 to a Z28. I will be interested to see what response you get from Tom! Jim

win... there's a flaw in their system. If you select the RS Z it shows 39. If you select the Z it shows 41 and then if you select Z and then check the RS option you get 47 LOL

You definitely need a new appraiser - sounds like you got one who just does insurance company collision damage appraisals at body shops, not one who understands the valuation of classic cars. The guy who handles my cars spends about an hour going all over (and under) each car, and writes down every number on the car, including glass and seat belt label codes - he KNOWS classic cars, and his appraisals reflect it (and he's well-respected by the banks and insurance companies, who accept his appraisals without question). I pay $100-$150 for an initial appraisal, $50-$75 for updated appraisals on the same car every two years.

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JohnZ
CRG
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

Thanks Jim..that is actually where I bought the car back in '99. Is he partners w/ Mark now? Have you seen the Yenko at Muscle Cars Nortwest in Renton?
Dennis.. I tried that too. That was another reason I sent them the e-mail. Weird. I will take the $47,000 value!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif I wish.......

I thought the Yenko sold to one of the guys that monitors this board. Is it still there? I assume you are talking about the Green one. Yes, Tom works with Mark (another good guy). They sold my '69 Z28 a couple of years ago and the red '70 Yenko Deuce. He approaches the appraisal process just like was described in the previous post by JohnZ and I think at about the same price. Jim

[This message has been edited by NWYENKO (edited 01-31-2003).]

I got kind of the opposite from an appraiser. He looked all over the car for about 5 minutes and turned to me and asked "So how much do you want me to write this appraisal for?". I told him I really wanted to know the value. He opened up a copy of Old Car Weekly (I think) and gave me a value. I ended telling him what to write down, although I did base it on his estimate.

This thread is similar to the thread in bench racing on the current values of cars in the muscle car market. I do not believe that a car, or anything for that matter, is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. As one person in the other thread stated, the selling price of a car is a confluence of events, i.e., right place, right persons, right time. If one of the three is missing, the price will be lower than it would have been if you had all three.

If someone pays $100,000 for a $50,000 house, it DOES NOT make the house worth $100,000. It means the buyer was a fool, or knew something about the house that the seller didn't (i.e., about the chest of gold buried under the floor).

Applied to appraisals, your car shouldn't be worth what you paid for it just because that's what you paid. And I agree with the appraiser, condition is the most critical aspect of determining a car's worth. That's what the guy that appraised my car said. In Mark's case, it sounds like he got a real picky appraiser that couldn't see the forest for the trees. The details are important, but so is the overall condition. As for the rarer, high dollar cars, I would leave those appraisals up to someone like Jerry M.

Jim...I was there awhile back, but the Yenko was in last weeks autotrader. What color was the Z you sold? That Yenko Nova was nice. I thought about buying it actually. Reasonably priced too. Mark is a really good guy. I stop in there to say hi everytime I am in the area. Thanks again for the info.........

The Z was Hugger Orange. We had it 12 years and really enjoyed it. It was a very nice car that was NOM. A guy in Enumclaw bought it and I haven't seen it since. Ironically, Gary Holub bought the Deuce(had previuosly owned it) and sold it a few months later for significantly more than he paid for it! Oh Well! The definition of value is established when a "willing buyer and a willing seller enter into a transaction with neither being under duress to participate" Just because one individual thinks something is "overpriced" or not "worth it" does not make it so! We all have our ideas of what something is "worth" but that is only relative if we are involved in the transaction. Jim

As far as worth/value goes, I keep up with all the sources I can, NADA, Autotraders (local and national), EBay,and auction companies webites (auction results). Then from there I figure the market value is somewhere in the middle of asking prices. I believe NADA's value are a bit high (at least here), but close. The guy that did my appraisal a few years ago did a pretty good job and was close to the price I paid for it. He was on the board for NADA and wrote up a real nice ,professional report. The thing was though he did not seem to know that much about Camaros and also just went by the condition and appearance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JohnZ:
You definitely need a new appraiser - sounds like you got one who just does insurance company collision damage appraisals at body shops, not one who understands the valuation of classic cars. The guy who handles my cars spends about an hour going all over (and under) each car, and writes down every number on the car, including glass and seat belt label codes - he KNOWS classic cars, and his appraisals reflect it (and he's well-respected by the banks and insurance companies, who accept his appraisals without question). I pay $100-$150 for an initial appraisal, $50-$75 for updated appraisals on the same car every two years.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree.

In our town, we have a guy who does nothing but classic car appraisals. It's usually $100-$125....but....the insurance companies deal with him on a regular basis, and listen to what he says. When he appraised my 67, I was prepared with a stack of receipts.....that didn't seem to interest him in the least. We ran it up on the hoist to show the expensive stuff, but he was more of a paint and body guy....

When the dust settled, the appraisal was less than what I had hoped, but it's now insured for an agreed $36,800.

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Don~ ZZ430DropTop (http://hometown.aol.com/zz430droptop67rs)
~~~~and~~~~
70 RS (http://hometown.aol.com/performancespecs)




[This message has been edited by ZZ430DropTop67RS (edited 01-31-2003).]

ZZ's experience is a case in point. An appraiser shouldn't care about 1) what you spent on the car to get it to its current condition, or 2) what you paid for it, when determining market value.

Just because we spend $40,000 to get a car perfect doesn't necessarily mean it is worth $40,000. The replacement value may be $40,000, but not the market value.

Jim is also right on point. The price determined between two individuals may not reflect the true market value of the item being sold. There are many reasons why a specific person would pay more for a specific car.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gheatly:
This thread is similar to the thread in bench racing on the current values of cars in the muscle car market. I do not believe that a car, or anything for that matter, is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. As one person in the other thread stated, the selling price of a car is a confluence of events, i.e., right place, right persons, right time. If one of the three is missing, the price will be lower than it would have been if you had all three.

If someone pays $100,000 for a $50,000 house, it DOES NOT make the house worth $100,000. It means the buyer was a fool, or knew something about the house that the seller didn't (i.e., about the chest of gold buried under the floor).

Applied to appraisals, your car shouldn't be worth what you paid for it just because that's what you paid. And I agree with the appraiser, condition is the most critical aspect of determining a car's worth. That's what the guy that appraised my car said. In Mark's case, it sounds like he got a real picky appraiser that couldn't see the forest for the trees. The details are important, but so is the overall condition. As for the rarer, high dollar cars, I would leave those appraisals up to someone like Jerry M.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First this conversation isn't about anything but appraisal of classics for the purpose of getting insurance coverage. Yes it can spill over but shouldn't be taken out of context. Some if not most of our cars would cost a hell of a lot more to build over than it would if it were sold. then theres the rare car that if totaled wouldn't exist again. If you want to believe that every camaro or other car made is worth the exact same, say a copo in restored condition vrs a str 6 restored or a 327/210 restored in the same condition that your business. You are intitled to your opinion.

You wouldn't last a week on the coast where you have to pay $450,000 for 1,500sq ft house on a 6,000sq ft lot. And you certainly will never own a copo or other rare super car.

I think the value of the minerals in a human is about $.98 and alum cans are worth about $.90 a pound. Using your way of rationalizing makes each of us worth less than a 2 pounds of beer cans...

DjD, no need to get nasty! I think it you that is going to extremes and taking the topic WAY off course. The discussion of price paid vs market value applies to any property changing hands between a buyer and seller. I used real estate as an example. Sorry if I offended your Californian sensitivity to overpriced real estate.

I'll stick with what I said, and as you pointed out it is my opinion - the selling price of a car, any car, is based upon a confluence of events. That opinion NEVER states that a 6-cylinder car and a COPO should be valued the same. Let's say you caught some COPO owner on a really bad day (his bookie is coming over to break his legs in 1 hour), and you get his car for $50K. Does that mean that the value of ALL COPOs just fell?

As to what I can or cannot afford, well you don't know squat about me. I ALREADY own a $450,000 house. I aspire to own a documented Z-28, an L-78 or even an L-89 car. COPOs are out of my price range right now and if I'm going to pay that much for a car, it's not going to be for a Camaro.

Opinions? That great and this is all good stuff. I wanted the appraisal for insurance purposes only and not for re-sale. God forbid anything happen to the car but there is always that "what if" scenario? If my house burns down or the awesome Camaro gets stolen I would expect to get my money back. As it stands now, I could loose my butt. I do not plan on selling the vehicle.

Thanks, I wanted to know what some of the others in Camaro Nation had done. It sounds like I should get some other opinions.

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"All-muscle, all-car, without a tacky piece of gingerbread anywhere."

Mark I apologize if I helped derailed this thread, Gene I'll apologize to you as well as I didn't intend to be taken the way I was. Gene I only know about you, what you have shared and to be honest I'm dissapointed. How can you believe and say what you did and own anything of value?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I do not believe that a car, or anything for that matter, is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I agree with the appraiser, condition is the most critical aspect of determining a car's worth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ever go to the swapmeet? The days of horse trading are almost over! Don't like the sellers price, don't bother making an offer, he's gonna wait for the next buyer. As for condition, I know of a fair condition, one owner, orig paint, 60,000 mile Z/28 that will bring in way more than my pristine restored '69, many owner, not numbers matching ragtop. Condition sure did help the value of my car but really doesn't mean near as much to that Z. My ragtop will sell for what others like it will sell for and the Z will sell for what others like it sell for. Don't you thing that a value could be estimated and we could say the avg X sells for XX$ and the avg Y sells for xxx$. The term "what the market will bare" comes to mind.

How did you come to accept your $450,000 house was worth that much? Kinda like how I came to accept mine was I imagine. All the others around it are selling for that much. As I pointed out before and upset you (truly didn't mean to) you can't take the raw material value and say that's all something is worth.

My last comment, I under stand that the value to you might be different than the next guy but that doesn't make him a fool as you stated,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If someone pays $100,000 for a $50,000 house, it DOES NOT make the house worth $100,000. It means the buyer was a fool, or knew something about the house that the seller didn't (i.e., about the chest of gold buried under the floor).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and it doesn't mean the other guy is buying to take advantage either.

Again sorry Mark, and everyone else for derailing this one. I think it truly was suspose to be about appraisals for protecting ones property, not setting resale value!

Gene the other thread still has room for comment and debate, let's grab a beer and bring it back up over there...

Dj, it's all good. What I meant in my last post was to get another opinion from several different appraisers.

Thanks

Djd, good point on moving to the other topic. I'll reply there. What's an honest disagreement among friends?

[This message has been edited by gheatly (edited 02-01-2003).]

NWYENKO and winmon,
I bought a Hugger orange 69 RS Z/28 at Memory Lane Motors from Tom last spring. I was wondering if there was any chance you might know of the car and it's history? I know it's from the area and would like to contact previous owners to create a history of the car.
Thanks
Doug

Mark..I have mine insured through State Farm and they did not require a appraisal. I took in the print out from NADA.com and gave them that though. I have since increased coverage 3 times to keep pace w/ the value and had no problem uping the agreeded value.

Winmon, are you sure it is an agreed value policy? I was under the impression they wrote stated value policies. Just checkin' Jim

Doug, have you asked Tom about the car. I think it was one he was buying for himself so he may have some info. Again, he is a very knowledgable guy. Jim

Jim,
It was a car that Tom had for himself for a year or so.I do have the previous owners name but I don't have an address. I did talk to Mark a few months ago and he did try to help but no luck so far. Any suggestions??
Doug

Jim...I did check w/ them (State Farm) about that (actually twice) and the last time came out and asked them flat out and was told that they would pay the amount on the policy. The policy I have is a collector car policy. The policy itself reads different then the regular policy. The regular policy states that it will depreciate the value on a payout whereas the collector one states amount on policy.

I had the same problem Insuring my 55 a few years back.I wanted it covered for $25.000 on a total loss.Could'nt find any appraisors without a large fee,and since it was a heavily modified Pro Street car,made it tougher to place a value on.I totaled all the recipts when I built it,compared it to what cars like it were selling for around the country.I have a buddy that works at a large car dealership,had him give me an appraisal sheet for the amount I wanted Insured.I realize this method has no worth to anyone selling or buying.An Origional car or non modified car would be worth,I'd say what the NADA book says.They seem to be fairly accurate to what a car would sell for.For Insurance purposes this worked for me.

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69 Camaro SS 350 4 speed
71 Nova