I've enjoyed reading information here and other places concerning the cross-ram intake on our beloved early camaros. I am curious if anyone knows of any aftermarket maufacturers that make something that is similiar. I am getting things around to redo my 69 camaro. It is missing to many parts for a full restoration. So I am looking to do some modifications that are pleasing to purists and innovative at the same time. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Wade.

Nobody makes them any more. Edelbrock and Offenhauser made cross rams up til the late 80's, but not any more. Of the two the Edelbrock STR-10 was not a very faithful copy of the GM manifold. Where the Offenhauser is very similar to the GM manifold, with the exeption of the carb operating linkages which was setup to use 2 forward facing holley carbs. The GM used one forward and one rearward facing carb.

See the info on this page:
http://www.camaros.org/crossram.shtml

I've got an old Offenhauser intake and linkage in my garage (actually the one on the CRG page) that I could be convinced to part with for the right price



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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

The latest PAW catalog shows the Offenhauser manifold with two or maybe three tops available. I know one top is duel carb and one for a single Dominator carb.

PAW advertises the Offenhauser manifold for sale in its latest catalog!

I stand corrected then. Haven't seen a new Offenhauser manifold for quite a while, thought they went under.

I don't have a PAW catalog and Offenhauser doesn't have a website (unless they are part of another company now). Is it a model 5893? For my own info, how much does PAW list the manifold for? Do they list the prices for the other tops, single 4 bbl and 3 - 2 bbls?


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Mark Canning
1969 Indy Pace Car
350/300HP RPO Z11

What you could do is get the Offenhauser with the dual quad top which is almost identical to the GM. Then, grind off the "Offenhauser" and the 2 linkage tabs that stick up. Get the manifold reskinned and it would look very similar to the GM one, only it wouldn't have the casting #'s or snowflake on it. You would still need 2 Holley double pumpers and the GM style linkage and air cleaner which would still cost some $$$. There's really no inexpensive way to do it though.

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Jeff H - 93 Indy 500 Pace Car(supercharged), Hugger Orange 69 Z28 with JL8 brakes & crossram

Yes, the Offy is still #5893 for the base. Price-237.95. Dual quad top-$112.95. Single quad top-$107.95. THREE Weber top!-$130.95. I also have been thinking about going to the Offy cross-ram. I ran an Edelbrock cross-ram on a '65 Barracuda Formula S car I owned many years ago. I started with the dual Quad and later put a single four on it. It was a blast either way. This was back in 1976 and '77. I loved the crossram on that mopar so I have allways wanted one on my Camaro. Offy seems to be the most reasonably priced and versatile.

I have a Edelbrock one, And think it looks alot like one. Its a SY1, I emailed Edel. and they said that it was a crossram designed by Smokey Yunik. I emailed them cause I was hoping to get the dual carb setup top plate. Mine has the single top.

Oh yea, does anyone know if the cross ram off a 85 or 6 can be converted to carb setup. I spotted one in the junkyard yesterday, and it has dual throttle bodies on it.

Hey Corn,

How the heck are you??

I don't think the ports are big enough in the "cease-fire" crossram manifold that you are asking about. I read someplace that they were about half sized and would really choke an engine down. pdq67

I talked to Offy a fiew months ago and the manifolds can be ordered directly from them but a better price is available from Summit.
Summit can order them, they are not listed in their catalog.
The manifolds are sold separately as base and top components.
A gasket comes with the base and one with the top.
The weber top is not available anymore.

He said most guys use smaller carbs with vaccum secondaries on the street.
Fuel distribution is a problem on these type manifolds.
The Offy appears to be the same manifold as the GM one, but with a new top that says Offenhauser on it and a couple of bolts are moved on the top to allow removal of the top without having to remove the carbs first.
There are top attachment bolts postitioned under the float bowls on the GM top.
The Offy base seems identical in every way to the GM manifold, other than the missing snowflake for the winters foundry, the top bolt pattern, the GM part numbers.
It does have the fuel distribution dams cast inside identical to the GM casting.
I have an extra single four top for the Offy manifold, if anyone needs one.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Hey CORNHOLIO, here's a link to the crossfire manifold with dual 4 top that was just on Ebay. The crossfire manifold was available on 82-83 Camaros and Corvettes. I'm not sure who makes the top to convert to dual 4 barrels. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=489090047&r=0&t=0

wow Jeff, thats a GM manifold too. HuH, I will have to get a photo of the one that I have.

I have a Wiend Cross Ram manifold that sets two four barrel carbs side by side. It is low profile and might even fit under a stock hood. I too would part with it for the right price.

Check E-bay
search for dual quad..
I've seen the Offy's there before
jk

[This message has been edited by 68ragtop (edited 11-14-2000).]

Wow guys, nice job. I think you have given me plenty of information to start researching. I never dreamed that I would get as much of a response as I did. I'll keep an eye on other questions posted. However I am not sure if I am up to the caliber of the groups knowledge. Keep up the good work.

Thanks.
Wade.

I figured I might as well throw my entire thought pattern out for all of you to give your input on.
My thought is to use a Holley Pro-Jection setup on the intake to birng the car into the modern era. I'm sure I will have a fun time with the electronics on this setup. I am thinking this way for two reasons. One of course is for drivability and performance. The second is to come near to the looks that we had with the original setup, also using most of the cowl induction parts that I have rounded up for this type of engine setup, (including an original Air Cleaner. Not for Sale at all) Now feel rest assured guys, I will not be putting this car on any auction block advertising it as anything original. I am actually thinking of stripping it of it's designation emblems completly. Except for the beloved Cheverolet and Camaro. It was an SS-350 car by Vin. However I cannot even include those emblems on this car with a clean heart. I do plan on taking the car to small local shows and cruise-ins. But I want to do so with a clean heart. I don't like to recieve any flack from purists who take the tremendous time, effort and well deserved pride to restore there machines.

There, now you have my thoughts on the matter. I'll just throw them against the wall and see what sticks.

Oh yeah, one more thing. There are also thoughts in the back of my head to ad giggle juice to the setup to be extremely ornry. You can call me insane if you like.


Thanks for making this a great site to visit.
Wade.

[This message has been edited by BowTieGuy98 (edited 11-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BowTieGuy98 (edited 11-15-2000).]

The late gm Corvette crossfire manifold is not wide enough for a dual carb deal.
It used two one barrel throttle bodies.
I think fuel distribution is the biggest problem with any of the crossram manifolds.

A port injection conversion would be interesting, then use two throttle bodies to replace the carbs. You could even use a couple of gutted carbs.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

What would be neat is a Force Injection custom Edelbrock/Offy crossram with welded in injectors at the ends of the intake ports on the lid and a 1000 cfm throttle body on it right in the middle. $2500/$3000 probably, who knows. Call them. pdq67

David -

Friend of mine built a tube-frame Grand Sport replica (his is a roadster, mine a coupe) and wanted the authentic look, but driveability too - got an original Moon cross-ram, modified the front for a thermostat housing, did a great cosmetic cleanup on a set of old and otherwise unserviceable Weber 58DCOE's that are used only as throttle bodies with fake fuel lines, welded bungs on the bottom of the runners for Bosch injectors, and now has what appears to be the original cross-ram Weber setup, except it idles and runs beautifully. After all the welding and machine work he did on the Moon (crummy piece of foundry work), he's having patterns made that include the thermostat housing modification and cast-in hidden injector bosses and will be peddling them in a few months. I built several of the Reynolds 430 and 494 BB's for Bruce and Denny's M8B's in 1969 when I was with Chevrolet, and since have always wanted to find one of the Lucas/Kinsler injection setups we used in those days and do the same thing to it - would really make a wild-looking street engine that's driveable......

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JohnZ
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

Yea they arent that good for distribution, but they look cool.

Mickey Thompson made them as well in the '60s, will have the "M/T" logo on it, don't know the numbers.

I beg to differ, The crossram manifold would be great as far as distribution goes once you turn it into a dry manifold and add port injection.

It's the wet fuel that gives the manifold fits, not the dry air.

I just wonder how much midrange torque one of these conversions would make on a torque-cammed real street engine???

If only I would win the Lotto so I'd have enough money to play with!!! pdq67

Anybody ever see the Moon Cross Ram intake? Look under http://www.pro-touring.com/featured_cars/Camaro/larry_callahan_camaro/larrys_1968_camaro.htm

Larry Callahan

Hi Larry,
JohnZ, there was a neat small block individual runner type crossram made for McLaren for the M6A, have you seen one of those?
Also I have a friend who has a crossram FI Manifold made for the SB Grand Sport. They used adaptors to fit side draft webers to it, but my friend has the FI version.
Would you like to see a photo of it?

I have a neighbor who does chassis restoration on Can-Am cars, he has three alloy big blocks over there! http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif They have the downdraft lucas injection on them.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Chev 350 Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-12-2001).]

David, I'd love to see a picture of it. My plan is to fire up the engine for the first time this weeknd. I should have the new software and E-Prom from Electromotive on Thursday! I'ts killing me waiting!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davidpozzi:
Hi Larry,
JohnZ, there was a neat small block crossram made for McLaren for the M6A, have you seen one of those?
Also I have a friend who has a crossram FI Manifold made for the SB Grand Sport. They used adaptors to fit side draft webers to it, but my friend has the FI version.
Would you like to see a photo of it?

I have a neighbor who does chassis restoration on Can-Am cars, he has three alloy big blocks over there! http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif They have the downdraft lucas injection on them.
David
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BowTieGuy...I see Offenhauser and Edelbrock crossrams all over at swapmeets in my area, I'd bet its the same everywhere. I would say you can pick one up pretty reasonable at a swapmeet. Just something to think about.

I never worked on the M6's (just M8's during the 1969 season, also trying to keep the Hewland LG500's and GKN half-shafts in one piece, but that's another story), but the M6 crossram manifold probably started out as a Moon, as most of them are - yes, I'd like to see a picture of it!

The Lucas/Kinsler injection system for the M8's was pretty simple, but it didn't have to cover a very wide metering spectrum, either; you wouldn't believe the development hours that we spent on Chevy Engineering dynos working out the optimum velocity stack lengths for each track. BTW, Pete Kinsler, son of the original developer, is one of the lead engine engineers at Viper Engineering - have known him for years.

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JohnZ
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

I was told the dad Kinsler designed something like a Chinook? kinda a Chapparal looking Can_Am car.
I met him briefly at the Can-Am 30th reunion at Elkhart Lake in 96.
This year is the 35th reunion, I'm dyin' to go!
Jim Hall is the honored guest. There will be some of his cars there http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif
July 19-22.

One of the BB engines the neighbor has is a linerless Reynolds block. I've heard they used iron plated pistons but this engine does not?
This engine was said to be smoking a bit. Any idea what is wrong with it?

On the LG 500, I've got the earlier version of it and did a modification to tie the right and left side plates together like the LG500 MK2 case.
I had some cracking on the left side cover hole in the main case, just opposite the pinion gear. There is a weak area near where the reverse gear shaft is.
Ive got a MK2 case but am looking for a cam and pawl diff for it and some other small parts.

I'll see what photos I have.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Chev 350 Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 06-12-2001).]

Edelbrock made several styles, STR10 is a dual quad, SY1 is the Smokey Ynick design for NASCAR single quad, XC8 is the dual quad side by side, Offenhauser, Mickey Thompson and others made them too. The STR10 is what Vic Edelbrock has recently added to his Yunick 68 Trans Am Camaro. If its good enough for Vic that should say something right there. I'm running a SY1 on a 331 right now and love it. Of course the engine is built for top end power, the SY1 was designed for continued use above 4500 rpm. Not real good on what most guys run today, but short stroke, steep geared machines will respond well to it. It's plenum area is larger than most tunnel rams, yes a dry runner would work great compared to the wet system, but then there's better choices for intakes if you're going to that trouble. About the only good reason to run one today is for nostalgia, and if you're into serious horsepower and drivability doesn't matter to you. You cannot swap lids between the STR10 and SY1. The STR10 is much shorter in height and has canted runners like the Chevy crossram. The SY1 was a fresh design and is square, like a tunnel ram that's been squashed flat for hood clearance. Another thing to consider is there is no provision on the manifold to mount your alternator bracket on a 69 and newer car, even if there was the intake is much too tall. The other thing I like about the SY1 is it is air cooled and has the blow out plugs in the plenum. Expect to pay around $350 for a nice unmodified Edelbrock manifold, more if linkages are included in the dual quad versions. The SY1 will require a spacer of at least 1/2", probably 3/4" beneath the carb to allow its linkage to clear. There are recesses cast into the lid, but they do not line up, nor are they deep enough, with many of Holley's carbs. So with the taller intake and spacer hood clearance becomes a problem on first gen Camaros unless you run a cowl hood and even that is close depending on motor mounts and air cleaner choices.

I've heard the SY-1 is a good manifold, better than the crossrams, due to better port approach to the head.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Chev 350 Can-Am Vintage Racer