I have just been told by a very reliable source that there was 2.This is the 2nd time I talked to someone that had GM connections.I met with one of these people just recently.One car was Black with Gold ,theres pictures of that car.The other was always assumed to be the same,but 2 connected people told me different.The 2nd one was Silver with a 4spd. Dan

Both of them are black, one is more black than the other as it had some of the chrome blacked out. Both were probably mocked up at the same time the original 9560 cars were being built, but most of the drawings and pricing for the 9567 cars are dated post March of 69 thru July of 69, and the option would have listed for 5229.55, for a total base price of 8581.60 (4 spd) 8676.60 (auto) which was pretty steep for the day.

From Al Wallace who has extensively researched these cars, and has a replica that is about 100% correct.

The story of the 1969 COPO 9567 ZL-1 Camaro is really a story inside of a story. Most Camaro enthusiasts have now heard of the infamous, bare bones COPO 9560 ZL-1 Camaro, a true factory race car. But, few have probably heard that there was a 2nd version of the ZL-1 Camaro that Chevrolet very nearly produced. Chevrolet executives intended for this 2nd version to completely dominate the street. In at least one document it was referred to as the ZL-1 Special Camaro; in others, it was simply referred to as the 1969 COPO 9567 ZL-1 Camaro.

The story of the 1969 ZL-1 Camaro begins with the story about its all-aluminum 427 Big Block engine, the ZL-1. The story of the ZL-1 engine actually begins back in 1965, when an all-aluminum small block engine was designed for Chaparral race cars competing in the Can-Am Series. The project failed because the engine was not powerful enough to beat the competition. Chevrolet Research & Development set out to develop a more powerful engine and came up with the Chaparral 427 Big Block engine, available to racers over the counter in 1968. The ZL-1 followed the Chaparral engine, and was designed for even more power, with the first ZL-1 engine being forged in November of 1968.

Now, somewhere between late 1967 and early 1968, Fred Gibb (of Gibb/Harrel racing fame and owner of Gibb Chevrolet) and Vince Piggins (responsible for the Z/28) started talking about what would ultimately become the 1969 ZL-1 Camaro. It was Fred and Vince’s love of the Z/28 and the introduction of the aluminum big block engine that inspired the creation of the ZL-1 Camaro.

You see, Fred Gibb was into racing. As a matter of fact, he raced a 1967 Z/28 very successfully for a year and a half and was a national winner in his class. Fred wanted to race a ZL-1 Camaro in the Super Stock class and according to NHRA/AHRA rules, in order to qualify the car, the factory had to produce a minimum of 50 of the cars and make them “available to the public.” So, Fred and Vince came up with the idea of using GM’s seldom-used Central Office Production Order (COPO) process to realize their vision of the ultimate Camaro. The COPO ordering process, a process normally used to build special runs of vehicles like fleet vehicles and taxis, would now be used to build factory race cars.

The way COPO vehicles were built was by following what was called an Exception Control Letter Sheet. The sheets would tell the assembly workers what vehicle to start out with, and then, with approval from engineering, which components to add and which to delete. On paper, both the COPO 9560 and COPO 9567 Camaros started out as L78 (396/375hp) SS cars with power front disc brakes and either a 4-spd (M21 or M22), or a HD Turbo 400 (M40) 3-spd automatic. They then had all SS-identifying badges/tags/etc and 396 engine deleted, and the appropriate ZL-1 engine added.

For quite some time before the initial cars were ordered, Fred and Vince talked about what the cars should really be and what they should look like. It seems that Fred and Vince agreed upon every aspect of the ZL-1 Camaro except its appearance. Fred was a racer and believed the cars should be bare-bone race cars. Vince on the other hand, thought the cars should be more appealing to the public and therefore should be flashy, with special striping and badging. This is where the story of the ZL-1 Camaro becomes two stories, one of the COPO 9560 bare bones ZL-1 Camaro and one of the COPO 9567 ZL-1 Special Camaro, because up until this time they had really only talked about “the ZL-1 Camaro.” Still, both men agreed that these cars would be the most incredible Camaros ever built.

The basic idea that they each had for the car was the same. Start with a 1969 Big Block SS Camaro and swap out the 396 drivetrain for the brand-new all-aluminum Big Block 427 ZL-1 engine and some heavy duty parts like the new HD Turbo 400 automatic tranny and a heat-treated 12-bolt rear-end. To allow the cars to breath better, they were fitted with brand-new ZL2 Cowl Induction hoods. To keep them running cool, they were equipped with HD Harrison 4-core, curved neck radiators (although it’s been reported that some of the cars may have been produced with a straight neck version). The COPO 9560 cars, Fred’s cars, were built just this way.

On paper, Vince’s cars, the COPO 9567 ZL-1 Special Camaros started out basically the same as the COPO 9560 ZL-1 Camaros, except they were all to be painted Tuxedo Black with Special Gold Striping and given a street detuned version of the ZL-1 engine. This engine ran 11:1, instead of 12:1 like the COPO 9560 ZL-1 engines. There were a host of other standard options intended for these Camaros, as well. Unfortunately, the 1969 COPO 9567 ZL-1 Special Camaro never went into production. However, there is enough verifiable proof to show that GM was seriously considering producing 100 of these cars by around the mid-March 1969 timeframe (the same time that Fred Gibb’s remaining 48 COPO 9560 cars were being built). In fact, Vince Piggins and his design staff hand-built two prototype cars (see pictures of Prototypes “A” & “B” further below), one a 4-spd, the other, an automatic, to show off to executives, and, on occasion, to terrorize the streets of Detroit!

So where did it all go “wrong”? First, a little more detailed background. It started out this way: Back in August 1968, through his dealership, Fred Gibb placed an initial order for fifty (50) COPO 9560 cars. In December, the first two cars were built as sort of a test run, and delivered to Fred’s dealership on 31 Dec 1968. Soon after the first two cars arrived, other dealers found out about Gibb’s order and wanted to get their own ZL-1 Camaros. Nineteen additional cars would eventually be ordered and built for a total of sixty-nine (69) 1969 COPO 9560 ZL-1 Camaros. All of the cars were produced at the Norwood factory between December 1968 and early June 1969 before the program was killed. Factory dyno tests of the time showed that the ZL-1 engine produced 575 hp and 515 lb-ft of torque with open headers; however, GM only publicly acknowledged that the cars put out 430hp. And, only a handful of cars exist today.

A total of only ninety (90) ZL-1 engines were built: fifty-four (54) in the COPO 9560 manual transmission configuration, thirty-four (34) in the COPO 9560 automatic transmission configuration, one (1) in the COPO 9567 manual transmission configuration, and one (1) in the COPO 9567 automatic transmission configuration for the other prototype Camaro.

Of those ninety engines, sixty-nine (69) were put in COPO 9560 cars (47 manual, 22 automatic), two (2) were put in 1969 Corvettes, and two (2) were put in the COPO 9567 cars, leaving seventeen (17) crate engines (12 manual, 7 automatic).

I believe that both cars (COPO 9560 and COPO 9567) went through the normal phases of pre-production in parallel, but two factors prevented the 1969 COPO 9567 Special ZL-1 Camaro from reaching actual production, i.e., where it all went “wrong”:

1. The price for a ZL-1 Camaro turned out to be too high. When Fred Gibb’s 1st two COPO 9560 cars arrived at his dealership, they showed up with a price tag of $7269 each. Fred had originally been quoted a price of ~$4900, and given that the base price of a V8 Camaro in 1969 was $2726, Fred suffered a severe case of sticker shock when he saw the price on the cars. He knew that it would be difficult to sell the cars at that price, so he had GM re-invoice 37 of his 50 cars to other dealerships and had his name removed from the paperwork to avoid finance charges. The reason the price on the cars was so high was because GM had passed on the full price of R&D onto the price of the car itself, instead of spreading it over the fleet. The cost for the ZL-1 engine option alone turned out to be $4160.50! With a price like that, the cars were just too hard to sell.

2. Timing. I believe that because there was more to the COPO 9567 ZL-1 Special Camaro than simply adding and deleting existing components (the process used for building a COPO 9560 Camaro), it required more lead-time within GM to make the car a reality. There was artwork to be done, badging to be made, and another batch of engines to produce, amongst other things. The COPO 9567 cars were already slated to sell for $8581.60 for the (M21) 4-spd version and $8676.60 for the (M40) 3-spd automatic version. Given the reaction to pricing on the 9560 cars, the proposed price for a COPO 9567 was also too high.

Exactly how close the COPO 9567 Camaro actually came to production is unknown, but from the documentation I’ve accumulated, it’s clear that Chevrolet was more than just considering building these cars. They had done a significant amount of planning, engineering, prototyping, and pricing of them to clearly show that the car was ready to go to production.

Whatever happened to the two prototype COPO 9567 ZL-1 Special Camaros? No one outside GM knows for sure, but rumor has it that they’re locked away in a special warehouse that GM owns. Whether they are or aren’t, wouldn’t you love to get your hands on one of these gems?
Standard options slated for production COPO 9567 ZL-1Special Camaros included:


Tuxedo Black paint with Special Gold striping
ZL-1 Street Detuned Engine
Z22 Rally Sport
M21 (M22 Optional) 4-spd manual or Heavy Duty M40 3-spd automatic transmission
J52 Power Disc Brakes
N40 Power Steering
D55 Center Console
U16 Tachometer
F41 Special Performance Suspension
ZN2 COPO 9567 Springs
G80 Positraction (4.10 ratio w/M21 or 3.55 ratio w/M40)
K85 61 Amp Generator
K66 Transistor Ignition
D80 Auxiliary Valance Panel
Wider Front Bumper Valance Panel
VE3 Special Front Bumper (only Prototype “B” had this)
Racing Type Mirrors (Only Prototype “B” had these? – Can’t tell from photos. Prototype “A” did not.)
Exhaust Resonators
Tail Pipe Extensions
Special Steering Wheel
F-70-15B Nylon Blackwall w/Gold Lettered Tires
15x7 Wheels (Prototype “B” had 15x8s in the rear)
Special Hub Caps & Wheel Nuts
Wheel Trim Rings
Fender Splash Guards (Prototype cars did not have these)
Special Striping, Decals for the Hood, Grille & Rear End Panel (The grille lettering was slightly different for each of the two prototype cars – see pictures below)
Wheel Opening Mouldings Deleted (only Prototype “B” had these deleted)
Special Instrument Cluster (for Transistor Ignition)
Other Features of RPO L-78 except Fender Emblems
In addition, Prototype “B” had its Simulated Rear Fender Louvers Blacked-Out

[ 02-06-2005, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Mark C ]

Very nice information. Please can we look at the pictures?

Mark,Great info,but the 2nd one was Silver.The Black and Gold car could of had slight changes from the beginning.Notice ALL the pictures published of this car theres been NO pictures of 2 Black and Gold ZL1's together.By the way the Silver car was ran on the streets back then by certain GM employees.I cannot tell you who told me,but I'm sure in the near future it will get out. Dan

Could be I suppose, but the more common photos are of the B car, these are the ones with the MC-6588 Michigan plates, and it's definately black. The "A" car is the one with the USA front plate (never seen it with a real license plate) The "A" car could have been blacked out, but if that happened then there are only photo's of one car, not two.

The current rumor is that the second one (or maybe the first) has been found in a location not far from the GM proving grounds where it's been stored away since 69 or 70 and that it is presently a different color than black. doesn't mean it was built that way, and when (if) it makes it's eventual appearance then we'll see.

Again from Al Wallace:

The "A" Car:
http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image002.jpg
http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image004.jpg

The "B" Car:

http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image006.jpg

http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image008.jpg

Notice that the "B" car does not have a driver's side mirror (or holes for one) and also doesn't have hood pins (in the center of the stripes)indicating it is probably not a blackout of the "A" car since it has mirrors and hood pins and would have had to exist prior to the second version.

[ 02-06-2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Mark C ]

One of the black and gold prototype ZL1 Camaros showed up at a press preview of the 1970 Chevrolet line. Since the 70 Camaro and Corvette were not ready at this time, Chevy brought a 69 ZL1 Camaro and two 69 ZL1 Corvettes to this dog and pony show for the new 1970 line. (This 1970 press preview was in the summer of 1969.) The ZL1 Camaro was aluminum block and heads with L72 specs. The magazine photos are black & white but it looks like it could be the black/gold stripe car. One ZL1 Corvette was a TH400 with 4:88 gears and drag slicks the other was set up for road
racing. The press loved the Camaro and called it a big block Z/28. One ZL1 Corvette was set up for drag racing and ran in the 10s and the press was allowed to run the car on a drag strip that Chevy had set up. There was a 1970 SS LT1 Nova there that I believe was a prototype of the Yenko Deuce Nova. One writer said his lap times on road course was quicker with the LT1 F41 Nova then with the ZL1 Camaro because the Camaro would smoke the tires coming out of the corners. There was also a 70 LS6 Chevelle there. This was a fantastic day in Chevy hi po history but there was not much written about it which is very strange since it was a press preview. With all the press there with cameras you would thing more pictures/info can be found about this press preview. I asked a 1970 magazine writer if he was there and he said he could not remember. He said they went to so many of those events with all the different manufactures that it is difficult to recall a specific event. I have only been able to find 2 small articles about that day.

If that ZL1 prototype comes up for sale could be a million $$ Camaro?

None of this squares with the letter from Passenger Car Styling to the Central Office dated March 24, 1969 requesting ONE 1969 Camaro.

The letter states in part:

"This car is to be used as a Pilot Build for the one hundred (100) ZL-1 cars to be ordered by the COPO group."

Styling regularly made changes to prototype/show cars. The differences noted do not guarantee there were two.

There is someone with a tremendous amount of internal documentation on the ZL-1 showcar(s) and he isn't talking. He was in a position to know and has send me a few items of interest. He also once told me the car was factory-built as a Cortez silver SS-RS.

My comments like all the others are opinion, not fact. We will have to wait until his planned book is written.

That's true, maybe the blacked out one was first and it was chromed up later in life. Maybe they are both the same one, an it is the same one as the rumored silver one.

Heres the ECL (Exception Control Letter) for what appears to be 2 9567 COPO's, one with an M21, one with an M40 (look down near the middle of the sheet. This would infer that if there were two, the "A" car is an M21 and the "B" car is an M40. Don't know if that means there are two in existance, or that this document was just part of the paperwork associated with the as yet unreleased COPO order of 100 to come. Guess we'll all have to wait until one of both of them appear, or someone who was there speaks up.

http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image014.jpg

MarkC,The book that you pulled these pictures out of show on page 58 also a 69 Camaro with a Black Stripe going down it with the number 56 on it.Also has hood pins with cowel hood.Could this be the silver car? I will call my first contact up that remembers this car and see if he can remember details.Dan

I didn't pull these out of a book. They are Al Wallace's pictures. He could have got them from a book, I don't know what their original source is.

MarkC,It's called "The Camaro Book" by Michael Lamm copyright 1978.ISBN 0-932128-00-9.

The silver car is Dick Guldstrands' Z/28 Trans-Am car as tested by Car & Driver, May 1970 issue.

Bill,Below the picture it says....Editors of Sports Car Graphic borrowed race-prepared 1969 Camaro for extended test,found the car good for 143 but impractical at supermarket...Its got a funky looking rear spoiler too.....Dan

Mark;
While your info is technically correct about the birth and inception of the 9560 ZL1 Camaros, the main mover and shaker behind the project is none ither than Dick Harrell himself. Dick was instrumental in the development work with both Chapparal and Chevrolet. It was Dick who worked with Vince Piggins to consider the ZL1 engine for the Camaro. Fred Gibb played a major part in that he was the dealer that Dick needed to actually order the cars for Chevrolet to build them, because the Dick Harrell Performance Center was not an authorized Chevrolet sales outlet. This was possible because of Dick's long and very decorated history with Chevrolet, all the way from the Z11 impalas to the Nickey funny cars and 427 transplants in Camaros and Novas and Chevelles. Dick also held the Chevrolet banner high in the Super Stock ranks as well. For further insight on this, stop on over to http://69.94.82.218/forum/index.php? . This is the Dick Harrell forum, and many of the posters there were with Dick back in the muscle heyday. Also, some of them worked for Chevrolet and can answer about any question anyone may have about the cars.
Bill Z. :cool:

Bill you are absolutely right.Those guys lived it and are very informative about the ZL1 cars.They were there and worked on alot of them.

Here is some more about the birth and inception of the ZL1 Camaros. This also points out the role that both Dick Harrell and Fred Gibb played in this saga. This email is from Jim Elgan, who was an employee at the Dick Harrell Performance Center during the muscle car pinnacle years. Jim also is a retired GM employee.

From: James M. Elgan, EA Consulting, Inc.
To: copo427
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: Emailing: Camaro Tech 2 1969 ZL1 Camaro Prototypes

Good morning Tim. I wouldn't want to bust the writers bubble, but the auto manufacturing process is not that dramatic. It is nuts & bolts, not drama! It is a good story for the uneducated that were not even born yet. I'll share this with you; The original dealer choice was the Courtesy group from southern California. They had already signed on and everything, however the dealer principles from the 8 stores were beginning to Incorporate, and they could not all agree on this project and the cost. Second dealer choice was the Frank Late organization from the Dallas-Ft Worth area [old friends of Dick Harrells]. This dealer group was and still is owned by family members. The ZL-1 matter came to a vote among the family dealer principles and was veto'd. Oddly enough, one of the dealers bought 3 of them, one still owned today by one of the Steakly brothers. Fred Gibb was 3rd choice and was a last gasp effort by Vince & Dick. Mr helen or Mrs Fred knows this story, but she would never admit it. Wonder if she orchestrated the story. I ask this because of the single mention of Dicks name. Your friend, JE... .. Rolling Eyes To find out more info on this, just drop on over to the Dick Harrell Forum (http://69.94.82.218/forum/index.php?)

Bill Z.

Bill,Good info!! Thanks for posting,Dan

Have to say nice story but the fact is the Gibbs did step up to the plate and without them and the $$$ to back Dick Harrell he would not have gotten as far as he did. Also why is it that Mr Elgan keeps wanting to refer to Fred Gibb as Mr Helen or Helen Gibb as Mrs Fred. Have to say thats real class or should, BS like that can be kept on the other sites and will no longer be aloud on this one

I agree with Jeff, enough already of this guys (JE's)attitude.

Guys,this is about sharing of info from the ones that were actually there.Thru my research I've been amazed at what I have dug up talking to these Old Timers,these guys are at the Heart of the truth of what happened back then.These guys lived it,these were just people and cars to them back then.I have old books that were written years ago that should be updated.Because of the values of these cars,internet access,talk about these Supercars at Shows and Cruise nites,new OLD Timers from back then have come out of the woodwork to tell their side of the story.I wasn't there and very few were,so its great that were finally getting to what really hasppened.I really love talking to these old timers like Dave Libby,Ray Morrison and others.When I was in AZ I met a Gentlemen in person that bought a "Body In White" 67 Camaro from Dick Harrel...Dick Harrell was a amazing man,still fascinated by all the peoples life he touched,because of him he made these people Special too,all part of the big picture!!! Thanks Jeff for letting me post this here!! Dan

Jeff, in all fairness, Jim explained that those terms were used back in the day referring to Fred and Helen, not in a demeaning way. We have all referred to our wives as the "dominant" one. Simply a nickname. I think alot of people feel Dick Harrell has been pushed out of the picture as far as the conception of the ZL-1 cars. We should let those that were there tell their version. It is understandable it can get "colorful" at times.

I'm amused at this.The guy doesn't even post Steve and your tired of him.This was an email sent to me and posted by Bill.Don't even know if Jim knows it's here, it suprised me.While a couple of you might not agree it was a fact and arn't we interested in facts? As for the Mr. and Mrs. whatever it has been explained and I know what it means.Everyone I know had nicknames but that besides the point.
What was the point really of putting all this copo stuff on each of the sites?Alls I see is deleting or putting a link to another site.Discuss it here.I look here almost every day and post once in a while.If this link or deleting continues theres no use of even having a copo section here!!!
I guess just go to yenko.net if you have any questions.I'm not a member there so i guess the thread started here ends there.

[ 02-08-2005, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: copoloco ]

In my oppinion he has tried to diminish much of the involvement Mr Gibb had in the ZL1 project. What is most disturbing is instead of highlighting Dick Harrell's involvement he chooses to belittle Mr. Gibb. Also although "he" was there (36 years ago)it would be be nice if he had some documentation to back up his oppinion.

Have to say nice story but the fact is the Gibbs did step up to the plate and without them and the $$$ to back Dick Harrell he would not have gotten as far as he did. Also why is it that Mr Elgan keeps wanting to refer to Fred Gibb as Mr Helen or Helen Gibb as Mrs Fred. Have to say thats real class or should, BS like that can be kept on the other sites and will no longer be aloud on this one
Jeff;
Jim did not say that the Gibbs did not step up,he only pointed out that the dealership was not Dick's first choice to market and sell the ZL1's. As you well should know, Dick was HEAVILY sponsored by Courtest Chevrolet in 1968 and early 1969, If you did not know that, I can show you pictures of the 69 Funny car with the Courtesy logo on the side. I am sorry that your allegiance to "other" entities in the hobby may be clouding your judgement. I have also heard this from others as well, not just Jim! It seems that if a story is told long enough, it becomes the truth, even though that may not have been the actual story.
I agree with Jeff, enough already of this guys (JE's)attitude. And Steve, I do not know where this came from,well maybe I do, but it is UNCALLED for anyway. Too bad, as I thought maybe you and your organization would want to know the REAL facts, not how some magazines have told and retold the stories, and you all know how the grapevine works. So if you do not want to know how things REALLY were, then treat this thread as you would a radio, just change the channel!!!!! Too bad, quite a lot of information being ignored because it soesn't seem to jive with the "official" stories that the magazines ,books, and internet sites have told, or because some so called "authorities" have discounted for unknown personal or financial resons!
:confused:
Bill

Steve again his comment was private to me posted by a third party.I guess I'll have to show up at GM Carlisle and every time you gig a car I want documentation(original) from GM as to why you deducted points.I believe only a guy that assembled the car is only qualified to judge that car.I believe a guy that converted a car has the qualifications to tell you what they did.Why is it that all the so called experts weren't even born then.This crap that every car should be identical to the car the judge built himself is crap and I've always considered it crap.Now as for Jim lets discount him because he was just some poor uneducated snot nosed kid that greased for and traveled with Dick for 3 or 4 of the most significant part of the Dick Harrell era.Like it or not thats my opinion.

A lot of you keep mentioning all these facts from people that "were there" back in the day, which is great if those people were actually involved and can remember, but wasn't Elgan the same gentleman that was adamant about saying "Chevrolet didn't build anywhere near 50 ZL-1 Camaros" and that he personally delivered every ZL-1 Camaro to Dick Harrell's shop? That doesn't exactly help his credibility...

Cheap shot Rob. Why would you badmouth one of the few remaining people left that can open doors that were previously shut? I am sure if Don Yenko was still alive, he would have production totals, etc., a little askew. I would no doubt take Jims recollections seriously, because, as you well know, previously thought facts, have been proved inaccurate, time and time again.

Theres only one place to go for all your Supercar info. yenko.net .Take over all the websites,take over all the shows,supply all the judges to judge your own cars,inflate the prices of YOUR OWN cars in magazine print.My kind of guys.Someone now has a $1,000,000 car collection and its not me.Good luck.

Jeez Timmy...what are you going off the deep end or what ? Thats some pretty wierd statements don't you think ?? I remember when everything you found was worth a ton of money...why the change of heart ? I don't see anyone taking over any websites....except maybe a few of your pals plugging your site with links after every sentence...get over it will you.

Bob your clueless you have never called me on any car I have ever located.You have no clue as to what I've done personally.The next time you become a moderator on a website to fit in educate yourself first.Bob stick to sandwiches.

One thing I love doing is spending time researching this stuff and then sharing the info.It cost me time and money to do this,but I love helping and sharing with others.I haven't made a Dime off this info,but helped others find and identify these cars,like Tommy T. that recently found a 67 Nickey Camaro and sold it to Mike Guarise a member of the SYC.Tommy never paid me a Dime,never wanted any from him.He did well on the sale of this GG Granada Gold 4K 67 Nickey Camaro.Tommy by no means was a wealthy person ,so helping him make some money because of my knowledge was payment enough.So now I'm gonna plug the site where I'm a moderator and love sharing and helping people, www.rabbitstoys.com (http://www.rabbitstoys.com) ,Team Camaro thanks for letting me post.....Dan

A lot of you keep mentioning all these facts from people that "were there" back in the day, which is great if those people were actually involved and can remember, but wasn't Elgan the same gentleman that was adamant about saying "Chevrolet didn't build anywhere near 50 ZL-1 Camaros" and that he personally delivered every ZL-1 Camaro to Dick Harrell's shop? That doesn't exactly help his credibility... Rob; I would not put your eggs in the "bad recollections" basket, as FYI wasn't it Don Yenko in the April 1987 Muscle Car Review article claiming that there was 500 COPO Cars turned into SYC cars? After all, everyone knows that there was not 500 COPO cars sold through Yenko dealer networks!! And we all know that Don Yenko was ALWAYS right on with his recollections right??? So, before you put your foot in your mouth, remember, this was more than 30 or so years ago! All I am saying is, Keep an open mind and try to look in more than 1 area for facts and figures.
I don't see anyone taking over any websites....except maybe a few of your pals plugging your site with links after every sentence...get over it will you. Sorry to say Bob, I have only posted the URL for 1 website and the only other URL's are in signatures. Sorry this bothers you so much, but is beyond my control. Even though I am a member of Tim's site and the Harrell site, I am also a member of the SYC site as well.
Bill Z.

[ 02-08-2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Shtgnr ]

Not much longer Bill.Bob I'm still waiting for you to post your intimate knowledge on this or any other Supercar issue.

Wow, did this thread go downhill fast. Ego's today, or thirty some odd years ago are wonderfull things.

Bill...and Dan..I respect all of your views and we all go to whatever site we want.When I see idiotic,meaningless rants by Timmy going off subject and trashing people who happen to visit a certain site it just makes me laugh...Timmy you are the King in your world and the guys beside you can think you are just as nice as peaches and cream. When you post idiotic stuff you should expect people to respond in a negative way towards you.Hell people close to you are probably shaking their head sometimes.Jim Elgan and all the others have their view and opinions and thats great...unfortunately you are the only one to bring up the old SYC crap every time...and on other peoples sites.
Why don't you and I just stand down,I'll make some sandwiches and you can do whatever it is you do nowadays and let these people talk about ZL1's or something.We all are interested in ZL1's...just not the same old song and dance out of you for cryin out loud.

Bob I respect people who share knowledge and are willing to say maybe I was wrong.Not happening in your area.So in conclusion to end this matter I left a message on the website you read.Let me know.It includes YOU.

Wow, did this thread go downhill fast. Ego's today, or thirty some odd years ago are wonderfull things.
Mark;
This was never meant for this to head in this direction like this. All I tried to do is give some info that has been kept quiet for a long time. And judging by some reactions, I can see why!. I tried to post some info that for some reason no one wants to be known, or conveniently leaves out. Why? I do not know, maybe some "egos" don't want to be bruised if the truth comes out. All I have seen since this info was posted, was attempts to try to assisinate the character of someone who was around "back in the day". And if anyone read my posts, I said this info did not come from JUST ONE SOURCE, but because some people do not want to know what REALLY may have happened, they assisinate characters and call names. I guess certain sites are all about the info, as long as it goes with what they believe! Oh well, your loss, not mine! I will keep digging and when info turns up, it too wll probably be discounted as well.
Bill

Bill my post has nothing to do with the info presented...I listen to it all...no one is wrong or right...you add it to the pile of information...Timmy is just spouting the usual crap. Let the thread get back to real stuff. Tim...maybe you better e-mail me. I don't read it...

Bill my post has nothing to do with the info presented...I listen to it all...no one is wrong or right...you add it to the pile of information...Timmy is just spouting the usual crap. Let the thread get back to real stuff. Tim...maybe you better e-mail me. I don't read it... Bob;
First of all, the info I posted may not have been called WRONG directly, but Rob's post about faulty recollections implied it. And as far as Tim spouting crap, well that started after Rob attacked Jim E's integrity about his "faulty recollections". Then I see you register just to reply and defend Rob by trying to stir up Tim. You know what? I have seen this very behavior on the CHevelle site and Steve's Nova Site. This exact behavior and bullying is why the people that "were there back in the day" want nothing to do with sites like this. ALl they get is crap and grief for telling it like it was, and I know I cannot speak for them, but I know I would not want those headaches and false accusations. And if they cannot refute the info, the posts somehow get deleted, like maybe a server crash or backup??? Rob, Bob, Steve and others, why not just sit back and let the info be shown, and if it is not true, it will be proven so, and if it is, it will stand the scrutiny by the members here. I would treat this kinda like the Science community, let the info stand up to "peer review" not the "I am the leader and I say what gets posted and what doesn't" mentality.
And as far as the feud between Tim, Rob and Bob,I do not know what transpired, nor do I care. I have offered my phone number to Tim, Bob and your Dad Tom, but strangely I have never received any calls from you guys. I have only heard from Tim. Now why is this?? Maybe you do not want to know what I know, or do not think it is worth much huh? Oh well.
Bill

[ 02-08-2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Shtgnr ]

Originally posted by Mark C:
Again from Al Wallace:

The "B" Car:

http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image006.jpg

http://home.townisp.com/~markcanning/camaro/image008.jpg

Notice that the "B" car does not have a driver's side mirror (or holes for one) and also doesn't have hood pins (in the center of the stripes)indicating it is probably not a blackout of the "A" car since it has mirrors and hood pins and would have had to exist prior to the second version. These photos of the "B" car were taken in the GM Styling Studio (which supports the documented Styling request for a car to work on); I spent a lot of time in that studio during the development of the Vega (partially covered clay model in the background).

graemlins/beers.gif

HELLO VALERIE AND A HAPPY FOURTH TO YOU! PER YOUR REQUEST, AS BEST AS I RECALL HERE IS HOW THE EVOLUTION OF THE ZL-1 CARS EVOLVED: BACK IN THE 1961 ERA, DICK WAS KICKING BUTT WITH THE AQUA COLORED 409 CAR. EL PASO TX WAS ONE OF MANY STOPS ON THE CIRCUIT. WELL THE CHEV. MTR. DIV. ZONE OFFICE WAS IN EL PASO. THEIR MERCHANDISING MGR. AND LATER ZONE MGR. WAS NONE OTHER THAN JIM PERKINS [HE WENT ON IN HIS CAREER TO BE GENERAL MANAGER OF CHEVROLET AND NOW IN HIS RETIREMENT WORKS FOR HENDRICKS MOTORSPORTS]. WELL JIM PERKINS AND DICK BECAME FRIENDS AND HE WOULD OCCASIONALLY TRAVEL THE 165 MILES TO CARLSBAD ON "CHEV. BUSINESS" TO VISIT MORRANS GATEWAY MTRS. AND OF COURSE YOUR DAD. JIM PERKINS, WITH HIS CONNECTIONS, GOT YOUR DAD ACQUAINTED WITH VINCE PIGGINS OF GM PERFORMANCE ENGINEERING AND AN ASSOCIATE NAMED HERB FISHEL. AT THAT POINT MORRANS GATEWAY MOTORS BECAME THE DROP POINT FOR A LOT OF PERFORMANCE PARTS COMING OUT THE BACKDOOR OF GM ENGINEERING AND DIRECTED TO DICK HARRELL THRU MORRANS GATEWAY MOTORS. YOU HAVE TO KNOW GM ONLY DISTRIBUTED TO DEALERS AT THAT POINT IN TIME. GRADY BRYANT IN HIS "BOOK" CITED THE "FALSE" DOCUMENTS DICK CAME UP WITH TO MAKE THE DUAL QUAD 425 HP 409" LEGAL. THAT IS B......T! THERE WAS EVEN AN OPTION FOR THIS PACKAGE, DECALS AND AN AIRCLEANER WERE ALSO AVAILABLE. I SHOULD KNOW, I DROVE THE CAR BACK AND FORTH TO SCHOOL A COUPLE OF WEEKS IN MAY OF 1961 AND EVEN DROVE IT TO MY SENIOR PROM! WITH A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM FIELD MARKETING PEOPLE WHO WORKED FOR VARIOUS DIVISIONS OF GM, VINCE PIGGINS AND HERB FISHEL HAD TO COME UP WITH ANOTHER PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT. THE 427 MYSTERY ENGINE WAS STILL MONTHS AWAY, SO OUT THE BACKDOOR OF GM ENGINEERING WENT ALUMINUM FRONT ENDS FOR BOTH 62 CHEVYS AND 62 PONTIACS. THIS WAS ALL DONE TO ENHANCE SALES, AS FORD WAS DOMINANT WITH MARKET SHARE AT THAT TIME. DICK HAD ONE OF THE FEW SETS FOR A CHEVY THAT I EVER HEARD OF AND ANOTHER NEW MEXICO RACER, DON "RED" NEVINS [1977 NHRA SUPER STOCK WORLD CHAMPION] OF CLOVIS GOT A SET FOR HIS 421" PONTIAC. BOY! THE RACES THOSE TWO USED TO HAVE. EACH AND EVERY WEEK THE TWO OF THEM WOULD WADE THRU THE FORD CARS AND NEARLY ALWAYS RACED EACH OTHER FOR STOCK ELEMINATOR. DICK USUALLY PREVAILED BUT THE NEAT THING ABOUT IT WAS THE FACT THAT THEY WERE GOOD FRIENDS, BOTH TRYING TO ELEMINATE THE FORDS. KEN McLELLAND [TWO TIME NHRA SUPER STOCK WORLD CHAMPION] OF FRIONA TX WAS THE LOCAL FORD HOTSHOT. FOR THE YEAR OF 1963, THE "MYSTERY" ENGINE CARS CAME ALONG AND AS THEY SAY THE REST IS HISTORY. AT ABOUT THIS TIME, ALL THE BIG THREE, GM, FORD & CHRYSLER CUT BACK THEIR PERFORMANCE CAR SALES TO THE PUBLIC AND ELECTED TO SUPPORT THE PROFESSIONAL RANKS SUCH AS NASCAR AND THE PROFESSIONAL SPORTS CAR RACERS SUCH AS JIM HALL, THE McLAREN GROUP ETC: THIS FORCED YOUR DAD AND OTHER GM DRAG RACERS TO MAKE DUE WITH THE MALIBU AND NOVA BODY STYLES WHICH LATER EVOLVED INTO THE VERY FIRST "FUNNY CARS". LET'S FAST FORWARD ABOUT FIVE YEARS TO THE ZL-1 COPO CARS.. REMEMBER, I PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED JIM HALL? WELL JIM OF MIDLAND TX [CHAPPARAL CARS FAME] AND YOUR DAD GOT ACQUAINTED AND DICK LEARNED THEY WERE BOTH DOING "DEVELOPMENTAL" WORK FOR GM WITH AN ALL ALUMINUM 427" BIG BLOCK. WELL, BEING THE INNOVATOR THAT HE WAS, YOUR DAD MADE SEVERAL TRIPS TO DETROIT TO MEET WITH VINCE PIGGINS AND THEN HERB FISHEL WHEN VINCE RETIRED. TOGETHER THEY CAME UP WITH THE COPO ZL-1. COPO STANDS FOR "CENTRAL OFFICE PRODUCTION ORDER" BY THE WAY. COPOS COME IN VARIOUS DESCRIPTIONS AND CAN BE FOR CARS, TRUCKS, MOTORHOMES ETC: BUT THE MINIMUM ORDER IS 50, NO LESS, EVER. AGAIN, AT THAT TIME GM WOULD ONLY SELL NEW CARS TO DEALERS MUCH AS THEY DO TODAY. THE COPO ZL-1 WAS COOKED UP BY YOUR DAD ALONG WITH VINCE PIGGINS AND HERD FISHEL, BUT THEY HAD TO HAVE A DEALER TO RUN THEM THRU... YOUR DAD BY THIS TIME WAS RACING A LOT IN THE MIDWEST AND BECAME ACQUAINTED WITH FIRST HERB FOXX AND THEN FRED GIBB. THEY BECAME THE DEALER CONNECTION YOUR DAD NEEDED AND ALL 50 OF THOSE CARS CAME THRU HIS SHOP AT ONE POINT. ONE OF MY SUMMERS AT THE SHOP WAS SPENT TRAILERING THOSE 50 COPO'S FROM LA HARPE ILLINOIS TO DICK'S SHOP IN HICKMAN MILLS OUTSIDE OF K.C. MO. WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO HELEN GIBBS AND THE REST OF THAT ORGANISATION, FRED GIBBS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE "DESIGN" OR CREATION OF THE OPTION ZL-1. THAT WAS YOUR DAD'S BRAINCHILD! I DOUBT SERIOUSLY IF FRED GIBB EVER CHANGED A SPARKPLUG - BUT HE WAS SURE SHARP WITH A PENCIL AND A GOOD CAR DEALER. HOPE THIS CLARIFYS A FEW THINGS FOR YOU, AND OTHERS. DIDN'T MEAN TO BE SO LONG WINDED, BUT IT IS NECESSARY TO GET ALL THE FACTS ON THE TABLE TO PUT THE PUZZLE TOGETHER! ALWAYS, JIM... .. Mark,
Here is a short history of Dick Harrell's involvement and history leading to the creation of the ZL1. Of you would like more info, just say so. Also, come over to the Dick Harrell site using the link I posted earlier as Mr Elgan is a regular poster there and is more than willing to answer any questions you may have. Also most of the others on the site are knowledgable as well and appreciate questions.
Oh And Steve and Rob, sorry if this does not "square" with what you have read in your books and been told by others. Also, Fred Gibb as well as Dick Harrell were gentlemen and I am sure would like the truth to be known.
Bill

"Then I see you register just to reply and defend Rob by trying to stir up Tim." Where did this come from Bill ? I have been registered for some time...just reading and not posting.I have no idea what you are talking about with the phone number stuff...I'm glad Tim called you...I don't know why I would have a need to call you other than say Hi...as to deleting posts that don't fit someones way of thinking...thats just silly...not sure where that one is from either.ALL sites delete posts that cause problems,DH site,Rabit and TC....nothing new there.I don't have a problem with you or the DH site ...and this is not the SYC this is TC so whatever gets said here by people has nothing to do with the SYC which is made up of a couple thousand people...keep the post on track...I see no reason for anyone to come on this site and throw garbage and BS around claiming that this is how the SYC does this or that...makes no sense. Take it offline if you want to discuss other sites.

2 great post with great info.John can you provide more info and what you did.Bill alot of great info in that post.Bob we will take this offline.

[ 02-08-2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: copoloco ]

Bob;
I am sorry, my mistake, you have been registered since Dec 04. And if you want, my email address is there for anyone to use. maybe the offline avenue is best.
Bill

One ZL1 question that keeps popping up in my mind is the reference to the ZL1 at the GM proving grounds with the JL8 4 wheel disc brakes. I believe this car is pictured in Hooper's book. Could this be the silver car???? Or could it be a different car altogether? And what about the Yellow ZL1 spotted up in Canada back in 69 or 70 and not accounted for in the list of 69? It would be awesome if these cars would pop up. The black and gold prototype is probably one of the ultimate Camaros and if I owned it, I would be sharing it with others. I'm not sure why there is still so much secrecy about Chevrolet being involved in racing back in the day. It's done, it's over with and everybody knows that Chevrolet supported various race teams and dealers. If any of these cars are still out there, bring them out for people to see! Sorry, I'll get off my soap box now. :D

I really doubt anyone drove 50 ZL1 Camaros anywhere since they were split up, unless your saying that all the 50 ZL1's are Harrell prepped cars. I dont think so

either way back to the subject cars. John Z any more info on these cars such as what is said to be a soon to be unveiling of one of them

I really doubt anyone drove 50 ZL1 Camaros anywhere since they were split up, unless your saying that all the 50 ZL1's are Harrell prepped cars. I dont think so Jeff; in reply to this comment, here is something sent to me by someone OTHER than Jim E.
Elaine Harrell and Dave Libby. both told me they would take the train to LaHarpe in a group and drive the cars to Dicks. then Drive them back to Freds. Many went to the track before being sold! Jimmy was in the group. Later they had the transporter remember this was 1969.

Dale Pulde

H. P. Racing
DBA/War Eagle
www.wareagleracing.com (http://www.wareagleracing.com)
www.dickharrell.com (http://www.dickharrell.com) Ok, now do you think this person is wrong as well? After all, this is just one more person, well 2 people or more who have differing stories than the mainstream. Maybe now people will start to keep an open mind.
Also, I too would lik eto hear more from John Z about his time in the Design Bureau of GM. Maybe he will post and not get bashed.
Bill

I would like to hear anything John Z has to say no matter the topic as for the others with the exception of Dave Libby, its all hearsay. Ask Mr Barnhart if his car ever went to Harrell, I doubt it along with 3 others that were on the Gibb Lot, and now that this has gotten so far off track its closed.

Any body know what the chances of my block... Casting: 0-294550, Stamp pad: 70065 53-3, coming from one of the zl-1 showcars? ZL1Johnny@yahoo.com

OOps...it's: 53 "W"...not 53-"3"

Johnny,Hows Wayne Guinn coming along with info on your block? Dan Palchanes (Prior Owner of TRACO ZL1,now owned by Rick's)

Dan...How ya doing? He's almost done. I should know in a few weeks...Looks like it was in a 66 vette test mule, AND one of the 69 ZL-1 Prototype SHOWCARS!! The block was pressure tested, had it cleaned up to .040 over...just bought the NOS zl1pushrods. The 7115 crank cleaned up good...NOS zl 1 rods have new bushings...just bought braided wires...074 Heads were pressure tested...new valves, guides and springs...M-22 is looking good. I'm getting there! :) Will keep you informed. John

Johnny,Doing just fine! Good luck,keep us inform!! Dan