OK, the previous discussion made me think of a few questions. Of the first 50 cars that Gibb had ordered, did all 50 actually get delivered to his dealership or did he ask Chevrolet to take some of them back before they made it to his dealership? Once he saw what the price was and realized it would be impossible to sell them all didn't Chevrolet start to try and distribute them to other dealers before they even went to Gibb? And I forget, who was it that tracked the 69 VIN's and kept the recorded list? And who came up with the VIN of the prototype? And let's keep it smile.gif . Thanks!

I think this explains it...

Taken from, http://www.copo.com/ZL1-History.htm
After the first two were received, the remaining 48 Camaros filtered in from February to the end of March, 1969. By that time, Gibb knew he would never be able to sell these cars at the $7,200 price set by Chevrolet, and was allowed to send most of them back to the Norwood, Ohio plant. Gibb received car numbers 1-52 excluding 3 & 51.

So I guess those 50 cars would show Gibb's dealership as the "shipped to dealer" in an NICB report. The delay in receiving the invoices is probably why he actually received all 50 of the cars before he could cancel them.

I guess Dick Harrell had nothing to do with the Special BE rear,maybe it was Don Yenko....Jeff,Remember listen to the people that were ACTUALLY there,like Dave Libby,Jim Elgin,etc.I did work on the #4 Silver ZL1 that ED Cunneen had invoiced to another dealer,that Dealer being Courtesey Chevrolet in AZ,I proved to Ed that it went to Hauser Chevrolet in Bethlehem Pa,so its been changed.Other ZL1 cars were mismarked like the Lemans Blue ZL1 Camaro from Hauser Chevrolet,that was originally marked going to another Dealership.This car I found the original owner and he sent me original paperwork.What I'm trying to say is what was thought to be true for many years,has now been changed because of research.This is not heresay,this is FACTS! Please Jeff do not locked this post like you locked my last ZL1 Prototype post I started,Thanks Dan Palchanes

So what facts are in dispute? Where the cars were delivered, who came up with the idea, ???

Originally posted by paulm:
So what facts are in dispute? Where the cars were delivered, who came up with the idea, ??? Paul, I'm not asking anything about a dispute, I was curious if Gibb Chevrolet had actually taken delivery of the 50 cars he ordered. It appears he did. I do find it curious that someone kept track of all 69 ZL1 VIN's but the other COPO 427 VIN's were not tracked. If they were to be legal for a certain racing class I would think proof of 50 cars was needed for them as well. Unless the racing techs didn't differentiate between an aluminum 427 vs an iron 427 so the iron COPO cars were legal because of the ZL1's. Just like the JL8 option needed to documented to qualify for SCCA so I would think there is a list of all 206 cars with that option somewhere within Chevrolet. I'm just tossing some thoughts out there.

Paul;
As stated in the previously locked thread,the ZL1 concept was developed by both Dick Harrell and Jim Hall ( from Chapparral racing fame). The dealers that were first asked to place the orders for the ZL1 was the Courtesy group based in the southwest, Phoenix included. The when the deal with Courtesy fell through, the Frank Late organization from from the Dallas area (also friends of Dick Harrell)was asked to front the cars. This also fell through and Fred Gibb was then asked and this deal worked and the cars were ordered. When Fred realized the price, he contacted GM and the cars were supposedly returned. In reality the usual procedure was to have the GM marketing manager try to shop the cars to other dealers and have them reinvoiced. According to some that were knowledgable, the cars never actually "went back" to Chevrolet, but the cars were more than likley reinvoiced and shipped from the Gibb dealership.
Bill Z.

ZL1 VINs are known because Vince Piggins at Chevrolet happened to have them written in a journal. Super Chevy printed the list in a 1981 issue.

There is more to the ZL1 story in the book Chevrolet=Racing? Written by someone who actually worked at the Tech Center, it has a lot of behind the scenes info. It was written in 1972 but has been re-released. It is true that Jim Hall was involved with the ZL1 engine; Harrells name is not mentioned. According to the author Chevy engineering had virtually no interest in drag racing.


http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

Don't take this back to where the other thread was guys!! I don't know where anything about BE rearends comes to play in Jeff's questions and I'm not about to spend time surfing all over other sites to figure out WTF this is all about but the forums here at camaros.net are not the place for all this ego thumping... You guys have some great knowledge to share and that's appreciated. This thread is just getting started and it will be closed if it goes in the direction the other one did!!

:confused: I still have no idea what was so wrong about the other thread, what ego thumping is happening in this thread and in general why this topic would cause such a fuss and even have the potential to be closed. :confused:


I'm just trying to learn a little about the history on these special cars.....

William, did Vince write down all the ZL1 VIN's and the complete RPO's for each one like the list on CRG? Or did those full descriptions come from somewhere else? That's a very descriptive list that makes me think there is real GM paperwork for those cars. Did Jim M have any paperwork for those cars? Like I mentioned earlier, I find it odd that those cars are so well detailed but the other COPO's, L89's and JL8's are not. I guess I'm hinting that I still think there was some form of GM paperwork that still existed. Dare to dream I guess. tongue.gif

Bill,Yes excellent book,written by Paul Van Valkenburgh...Chevrolet-Racing Fourteen Years of Raucous Silence! 1957-1970 ISBN 0-7680-0529-9 ,I believe first print was 1972 ....Dan

Bill,Your right about Harrells name being mention in the book.I think what is being said is Dick Harrell,known Chevy dragracer,influenced the use of a Street/Drag version 427 ZL1 using Fred Gibb as the 3 choice of Chevy Dealership to bring these 69 Zl1 Camaros in.Obviously this motor was developed by GM with the Cam Am guys,like McClaren.McClaren was not into the Dragracing Scene,Dick Harrell was. These early ZL1 427 motors (CamAm) were different then the ones used in the Production 69 1969 ZL1 427 Camaros....Bill,For instance you know about the O dash codes that GM used, and you know I have one of those motors.So could Harrell suggested making a Street/Dragracing version with GM with his proven Dragracing knowledge and his intimate connections with GM? Dan

Paul Van Valkenburgh
Chevrolet - Racing? Fourteen Years of Raucous Silence!

This is a great book. Valkenburgh did have a comment about Chevy engineering not being interested in drag racing but I don't think he meant they weren't interested in winning drag races. The engineers were more interested in road racing where they could learn more about the road handling. Chevy engineering paid closer attention to the Jim Hall Chaparral and the Penske/Donahue TA Camaro but Chevy would have never made the 1963 Z11 427 lightweight cars or the 427 COPO cars if they didn't want to win drag races.
Getting back to the ZL1s. Something funny happened when Chevy first announced to the drag racing world that they were going to make an aluminum engine Camaro. They really pee'ed off the Chrysler boys who loved to watch the Hemi win races. I spoke with Bill Jenkins about his ZL1 Camaro which he built from his 69 L78 car in late 1968. He told me when he brought it to the first race it failed tech inspection and he was not allowed to run the car. He was told NHRA needed more proof that 50 ZL1s were really production cars. The Chrysler guys, including engineers from Chrysler who just happened to be at the race, protested the ZL1s. Chevy had to prove that 50 cars were not only built but were also sold. Vinnce Piggins (or someone in his product promotion group) had to go around to the Chevy dealers to collect information to prove to NHRA that they were in fact legal production cars. With the high sticker price of the ZL1s, this was no easy task. I'm not sure how this affected the Harrell/Gibb ZL1s because they ran AHRA but this may be why Vinnce still had the ZL1 vin numbers 20 years later.
Here is an intersting quote from the Chrysler boys from back in the day "Unfortunately, with the NHRA World Finals only a few months away in Texas, things were not going so great for the guys at Chrysler’s Performance Product Planning. What had happened was that Chevrolet had just succeeded in persuading NHRA to approve the new ZL1 Camaro for Super Stock C stick. These were lightweight Camaros with high-compression, mechanical-cammed 427 motors, decked out with aluminum parts. To be legal, they had to make 50 of them, but many people felt GM reached that number using mirrors. What really compounded the problem was that Bill “Grumpy” Jenkins and Dave Strickler quickly got the ZL1s dialed in to where they could run 10.90s on the soft SS/C 11.31 record. Now, you may not like the Grump because of his affiliation with the Bow Tie brand, but .............."

Joe,Coool info,your always good with your input....Dick Harrell was connected with the AHRA ,infact I have a very special copy of a letter between Dick Harrell and Jim Tice President of the AHRA in 1966 about the 427 Classes for the 67 Camaros.This was address to Nickey Chevrolet Mr Dick Harrell....Got this just recently,totally took me by surprise!!! Dan

I'm not sure if I'm getting my facts mixed up here, but I thought Jenkins first "ZL1" car was not really a ZL1 engine. Wasn't it a CanAm engine or something? Or am I mixing up that story with the Z11 Impala 427's?

Jeff,I think your right, Grumpy used the Cam Am 427 block,I have the issue where they talk about the 69 Grumpy Camaro with the ZL1 motor,430 CID....Dan

It’s been a few years but I think this is the way the story went….
Jenkins had both the "ZL1" engine and the CanAm engine. That was the first question I asked him and I'll never forget what he said because I was so surprised.
Grump said, "the ZL1 block was junk" He said it "moved" too much and wouldn't "seal". He said they made a water heater and pump to run water through the block to keep it at 180 deg all race weekend. This was to stop the heat/cool cycle from "moving" the block. It would still lose power after a few runs because the block couldn’t take the high RPMs. The CamAm block is stronger because it has a siamese cyl design meaning water does not pass between the adjoining cyls like it does on a normal block. The CanAm block was not legal for Super Stock but was legal for Pro Stock. The ZL1 block worked ok for the road racing Corvettes where the RPM was not as high. Yenko, Greenwood, and others used ZL1 blocks for road racing where the CamAm block was not legal. CanAm racing had very few rules and they of course used the CanAm block.
Jenkins won the first ever NHRA Pro stock race beating the Sox & Martin Hemi Cuda in the final round. This was a big deal because the the new Pro Stock class was heads up racing and nobody thought the Big Block Chevy could beat the Hemi in a heads up race. When they ran Super Stock the Hemi was in the quicker class SS/B and the 427 Camaros ran SS/C so the Hemi was making more power by design.
Pomona CA 1970 - The Grump rolled out his old 1968 Camaro with a 427 CanAm engine for that first Pro Stock race. It came down to the final round with Grumpy’s Chevy against the very quick Sox & Martin Hemi Cuda. There were 90,000 fans up on there feet as Grumpy rocketed off the line with 8000 RPM launch beating the Hemi Cuda 9.99 @139.53 MPH. The Chevy fans went crazy.
here is a picture of it
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/MotionSS1/grumpy68pro1970.jpg

William;
Dick was definately plugged into the engineering team. How else would that explain the Z11 engine parts sent to Morrans Gateway Motors, who sponsored Dick and his Impala. If you would like more info about Morrans, go to the Harrell site and address Jay Morran, as his family ran this specific dealership out of Carlsbad NM. Dick also received aluminum front end peices similar to the 63 Z11 Imoala for his 62 car that was shipped directly to Morrans from GM Engineering. The Z11 option was never available in1962, these were pre production engineering peices. Dick, as well as some other prominant Chevy racers received "backdoor" help and parts from Chevrolet engineering.
And Djd, to answer your post on watching the direction of this thread, the last thread did not get contentious until users from another site got involved. While I would welcome these members constructive input, the name calling and argumentative comments are not welcome, and as such, I saw no reason to lock the thread. As far as I can read, there was quite a bit of information being presented, and sometimes politely discussed, and some not so polite discussions. Hopefully these disruptions will not happen in this thread as well.
Bill

[ 02-09-2005, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Shtgnr ]

Bill I didn't address any names in my comments. Why do you feel the need to defend yourself and throw out others names? Now you've invited others to defend their position. Just something to think about. We don't need to sidetrack the thread any further...

Dennis;
While I can appreciate the enormity of your task riding herd on the members here,I viewed your comments as somewhat heavy handed. I edited my post to remove the names because after re reading the previous locked post, I noticed that a couple of members were also guilty, but I will refrain from naming them, but they know who they are. I in no way meant any trouble, but just was calling it as I saw it. I also thought the moderators actions were a bit too swift in locking the thread as information was being exchanged.
Now, on to better things, I hope the information will continue to freely flow and be discussed both pro and con,in a civil manner. Hopefully all members here will have information to add or maybe it will stir some curiosity to maybe look past the established sources and talk to some of the "old timers". Remember, these guys and girls do have stories to tell, and by belittleing their input, it only silences them as they avoid the commotion and hassles.
Bill

Appreciate the edit Bill but I have to say you have shown no regard for my request. I asked for no further discussion on this and to keep the thread on topic, I was being nice about it. "Just something to think about. We don't need to sidetrack the thread any further..." Now please honor that request!

Jeff H,
In response to your original post, the reply from Ed C.'s website is partially correct. The cars were all delivered to Fred it seems. Then when Fred raised the point about the selling price and Chevrolet agreed to take 37 of them back, they did not all go back to Norwood. The Chevrolet merchandising guy, Joe Pike hopped on his phones and started trying to find dealers to take the cars. When the cars were found new dealers, they left Fred Gibbs dealership. SOme of these cars also went to DIck Harrell's shop, as was pointed out in the previous thread. These cars were personally driven by Dave Libby, Elaine Harrell, wife of Dick, as well as some other employees of the DHPC, yes including JE. So, while Chevrolet technically took the cars back, it seems a remote possibility they went back to Norwood.
Also, if any documentation exists to disprove this, I, as well as many others would be interested in and welcome seeing it.
That is the story I got from more than 1 source who was around and intimately familiar with the workings of "factory" race teams.
Bill

I was more curious to see if Gibb had actually received all 50 cars before stopping the order. Apparently he received the 50 cars. In Marty Schorr's book "Camaro Three Generations of Premier Performance Cars" he has a photo of a ZL1 with 4 wheel disc brakes at the GM proving grounds in June 69. It's a black and white photo but shows the car which had no wheel moldings or louvers . Obviously it's hard to tell what color it is, but it appears to be a mid level color like Hugger Orange, Lemans Blue, Cortez Silver, Frost Green. We obviously don't know which car this is and I wonder if it could be the other prototype car.

Paul, I'm not asking anything about a dispute, I was curious if Gibb Chevrolet had actually taken delivery of the 50 cars he ordered. It appears he did.[/QB]Here's a photo taken in Gibb's back new car storage lot in March or April, 1969; lots of aluminum lined up in there:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-2/13522/GibbZL1Yard.jpg

graemlins/beers.gif

John;
That picture was of the Yenko Storage lot.
Bill

Man, I love that picture of Yenko's lot! :D I imagine that Gibb must have been worried about having all those ZL1's sitting on the lot. Bet he had extra security at the time.

Yeah the Yenko lot,saw that posted before.Cool picture.....Dan

I think the pic and post above are a good example of differing opinions. I have always known that as a pic of Yenkos toxic waste lot full of Yenkos. John Z who was doing this stuff back in the day and has been very informative on the inner workings from back in the day has just listed the pic as Gibbs lot full of ZL1's. My personal opinion is it is Yenkos lot but should I change my opinion because John said it is Gibbs ? Not trying to start anything just trying to show how a fact from someone that was there might not be right. I have a hard time remembering two weeks ago.

In a December 1968 Motorcade Magazine there is a real nice article on the Cam Am Aluminum 427.Tells of the connection with GM and Jim Hall.Shows some real cool pictures of the motors,one close up with the GM valve covers and a McLaren Rectanguler badge mounted to the valve covers.Mentions McLaren and Donohue who won the USRRC title with a 427 built by TRACO.These motors were running dry sumps because of hard cornering and breaking in the Cam Am cars. Dan

Ok,getting back to the Post about the 2 ZL1 Prototype cars that was locked,I found in a November 1969 Motorcade magazine a real big 2 page pictre of the black and gold 69 ZL1 427 Prototype Camaro.Shows the rear sway bar,white pin stripeing off the tops of the wheelwells going back.Says Camaro SS427 ZL-1.Quote from the article...In the ZL-1 version ot the Camaro,a super strong suspension is standard equipment.Additionally,power disc brakes on all four wheels is available as option to snub away that generated power at the end of the quater-mile dash. Dan

[ 02-09-2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: 68Baldwin ]

Val Harrell has been looking through the family photos and has found some great pictures that she posted on the Dick Harrell site of the 1968 Harrell and Gibb L78 TH400 Novas where 50 were built. In one of the magazine artiles you can see 7 Novas that look like they were part of the batch of 50 COPO L78 TH400 Novas. The article was on three of the cars. She also posted a really cool picture of a large car transporter taking Novas and a 68 Camaro. Can't beat the old pictures. Maybe more photos of ZL1s will show up. I know of one article that shows DH testing 2 ZL1s.

http://69.94.82.218/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=237

Joe,Thanks for linking the picture of the 68 Copo Harrell Nova train,love that picture everytime I see it....Dan

John;
Do you mean this picture is of the Gibb lot? Well here is the complete picture with the caption.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/mistermister1/YenkoBackyard.jpg

This is the picture of Yenkos storage area just right of and behind his dealership circa (Spring of 1969). I was in this lot around the time this picture was taken. The salesman took me out to the lot trying to sell me one of these 427 Camaros instead of buying a motor for my 68 Camaro. unfortunately I could not get insurance. You will notice a Hugger Orange X-11 COPO. This may be the car I owned a couple of years ago :confused:

The Mayor owns that now.

No, not the same car. Mine had the vinyl roof. It is now owned by Kevin Hand. Brian's is a non-vinyl roof car

The third car in on the second row? Brian's is I believe the fifth in that row. That is a awesome picture. I see myself walking down the rows of that lot, picking out a car...then I wake up.

So is mine the 9th car in that row ?

here is a picture I took of the yard when I went for a visit. The ground is a lot higher now because of the fill from the radioactive cleanup program.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/MotionSS1/yard32.jpg

I had to see if it was just a Yenko myth or true story but it really is a radioactive site still closed by the Gov

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/MotionSS1/yard30.jpg

Heres some good reading on the site and i have some other inf on it someplace since it was prt of a HAZMAT/EPA CLass I attended to get my Fed HAZMAT Disposal Cert,

http://www.gjo.doe.gov/LM/documents/canon/fact-sht/canon.pdf

notice it states sand like material, now is that the same sand like material thats on the ground under those cars in the pic???

Anything is possible Charly. I noticed the HG Camaro without the vinyl roof has the pin stripes on it. Very well could be Brian's car. The only ones I can remember are the Yellow cars. I think there are only a couple HG X-11 cars with vinyl roofs so I assuming that either this is my old car or member of the SYC that also has one :confused:

Since we are speculating, on who owns what car, my car may be next to yours Charley, the tenth, RG.

I guess we'll never know for sure, but it sure is fun to speculate! At least I had the luck to be there in the day graemlins/beers.gif

Those were the days...

Originally posted by clill:
I think the pic and post above are a good example of differing opinions. I have always known that as a pic of Yenkos toxic waste lot full of Yenkos. John Z who was doing this stuff back in the day and has been very informative on the inner workings from back in the day has just listed the pic as Gibbs lot full of ZL1's. My personal opinion is it is Yenkos lot but should I change my opinion because John said it is Gibbs ? Not trying to start anything just trying to show how a fact from someone that was there might not be right. I have a hard time remembering two weeks ago. I defer to Bill - he knows the photo better than I do (Yenko lot). graemlins/thumbsup.gif