Here's a link to an in-car video I took Saturday . . . it's a fun little video I think. Its 3.3 MB after being cut down, so be ready to watch the hour glass if you don't have high speed.

You can kind of "feel" the tires turn a couple times right out of the hole. Other than that its a decent 11.28 @ 119.6 run.

Any ideas on getting this thing to hook solid on marginal tracks? I was thinking about making the switch to Caltracs (from SSM bars). What springs with CalTracs? I currently have 4 year old 5 leaf factory replacement springs with one leaf removed and mono-leaf brackets.

http://www.turbo-jet.com/eric68.html

Thanks a lot to WildBillyT for hosting it for me. One day I'll figure out how to do that myself

What are you running for tires, tire pressure and rear gears? Are you using inner tubes? Also do you have your rubber snubbers on your traction bars tight against the leaf springs? By the way, great run with the 11.28 @ 119.6. I'm also shooting for the 10's in a couple of weeks.

Thanks! I'm sure you'll get there. Looks like you have plenty of potential in that big engine :D

My gears are 3.73's, Eaton posi

Tires are 26x11.5x15LT Hoosier QTPs on Centerline 8.5" rims

Pressure 14-15 psi

No tubes, no rim screws

My SSM lift bars are tied to the front of the spring with U bolts, so there is no snubber. I have them shimmed so that there is exactly the same amount of preload on both sides . . . the car seems to launch straight enough.

I wouldn`t give up on the SSM bars just yet.

What do you have for rear shocks? front springs and shocks?

Eric, Cool Vid! The small tire class that the guys run here are all running the MT ET streets and so many of them in the mid 8's low 9's and still on the old style traction bars. Some on a 28x11.50 and others on a 28 or 29x 12.50. I ran a set of the 28x11.50's in my old camaro and loved them.
What shocks are you using? Is it possible the car is rebounding some after it squats?

I ran a 72 camaro with SSM bars and 4:10 gears and M&H steet rubber. Had trouble hooking it at first until I figured out that the rear shocks were topping out. It would hook at first then spin. Switched to drag shocks on the rear (used 40/60 setting) and shock extensions and the problem went away. Ran 11 teens at around 123 mph after I got it to hook. I know it sounds strange but it worked.

Stephen

Eric-
I P.M.'ed ya.

I really like the in-car cam. Sweet run BTW. I watched it near a dozen times :D .

I think I can see the front end bobble(for lack of a better term) which I think is where you say the tires slipped some. Could be just track conditions to suspension.

What were your 60's, and give us some info on that motor.... we won't tell any secrets....lol.

Watched the vid. Definitely need more converter. You can hear the engine labor on launch for a second before it gets into the power range. When you hit 3rd the RPM drop is severe. The shift recovery of an 8" converter would help a bunch.

Just some comments to help you improve performance.

P'm'ed ya on the traction questions.

Otherwise, entertaining video!

definately agree on the converter, or even a touch more gear. whats the rpms through the traps?
as for traction, i know there are probably a million guys that love the ssm bars, but i know several guys personally that had little luck with them, and got rid of them and went quicker.
i say absolutely on the caltracs, they work killer. the best thing about them is they are so easy to make work. my 60' times are the same as your 11.28 pass all day long, in any condition (well, almost any). thats with a pair of 36 year old factory multi's, stock coils, and replacement gas shocks, on drag radials. i know you run quicker usually, but thats my point, its easy to run consistently quicker with caltracs.
the thing i notice most about your vid is it seems the back end squats as the front end comes up, maybe unloading the rear tire (its soo hard to tell from an in car vid though) with caltracs, the first thing i noticed is the whole car lifts up, you can really feel the tires plant. if you can watch a car with caltracs leave, the whole car lifts, untill the front tires come off the ground, but you dont get the drastic "unloading" effect like when the rear squats a ton.
now, before everybody jumps on and tells me about slapper bars, ssm bars and whatnot, yes, i know they can work awesome as well, but i have found them much more sensitive to track conditions and chassis tuning. hell a buddy went 1.54 60' with home made slappers, and stock suspension, it can be done, its just tougher, imho.
awesome vid by the way, and nice times. 10's should be yours once you get the 60' times down where they should be
just some personal thoughts on the matter, fwiw. good luck on the 10's!

I can't offer any advise as my strip time is limited to about 30 something 1/8 mile runs. But I enjoyed the video enough to say... Thanks for taking me along.

Cool video, I can almost feel like I'm along for the ride.

Thanks for the ideas guys. Now mind you the car does hook pretty consistent when the track is good, but am typically racing in street tire classes and am learning that the track isn't usually good when I follow some fuel injected front wheel drive car dragging water out of the box with the treaded radials on the rear wheels . . . LOL

Front shocks are Koni SPA 1's.

Front spring are stock 6 cylinder springs with one coil removed (it was catching air)

Rear shocks are CE 3 ways set at 50/50 with 2" extensions. I did find that the shocks were fully extending and the tires were unloading without the extensions. That was a couple years ago.

Hate to say it but I didn't look at the RPMs through the traps this trip out, but as I recall, the RPM was right about 6300 at 120mph -- I'm shifting at 6400-6600. I could go faster with more gear, but have to live with the RPMs on the freeway . . . I currently am turning 3500 at 65 MPH.

Here's the incrementals from the pass on the video

R/T____.522
60'____.626
330'___.668
594'___.738
1/8____7.204
1/8____.57
1000'__110.21
1/4____11.289
1/4____120.06

A friend that was spotting for me did mention a little black smoke on the shifts a couple times, I might need to lean out the carb a little (installed a new fuel system this winter). That might help a little with the launch and shift recovery.

Also keep in mind that I cannot afford to do everything at once . . . so a converter, and Caltracs, and springs, and shocks, and tires, etc is not going to happen at the same time. I need you guys to help me prioritize a little.

I'm thinking rear shocks first . . . and see how that goes. Then Caltracs and springs if that doesn't cut it. A new converter is kind of out of the question right now . . . but maybe this fall if really needed.

Hi Eric,

My wife's 67 camaro runs 10.90s with a little bigger tire, 28x12.50x15 and has no traction problems. She 60's in the 1.46 range. I found that the caltrac along with the pinion angle was the ticket. I fought traction problems for a couple of years until I made the change. She drives this to work in the summer and we needed the suspension to work for both conditions. Also, another big plus was going with the rancho 9 way shocks set on 3. The car lifts instead of squats and pulls both tires. BTW, -4 down was the best pinion angle.

http://www.horsepowerracing.com/boise2004camaro.jpg

67 Camaro - tell us about the combo.

Eric - those incrementals are off. Typo? You've got mail.

Eric, before spending the $$$ on the Caltrac`s wring everything out of the SSM bars first.
Put the Rancho 9 ways on the back. They are easily adjustable and are not that expensive.

Our best 60' is a 1.39 ET with the SSM bars with the Rancho shocks. The shocks where well worth the money.
We welded them on in a fashion that loosely resembles a 4-link.
You can use them with the Caltrac`s if you chose to go that route later on .

Eric the best way to fix your traction problem would be to get 27" tall tires, youre tryin to hook a high 10sec car on a 26" tall tire which aint easy...
We did this with my friends mustang when it was running low 11s@122 and it helped a bunch 60fted low 1.50s I know everyone will say dont do it because you only have 373s, but I'm not a big believer in lots of gear. A 27" tall tire and a good "tight" ATI 8" would work very well - it would hook, 60ft, and be better on the shift recovery too - faster all around. Thats the 2 things I'd get, in that order.

I agree with that, although i think a 28" tall tire is in Order.

I have some more ideas on where to look but will take them to email tomorrow.

hey whats with all this e mail correspondence, you guys afraid to air you ideas publicly? ;) . i'm very interested in what everyone has to say on the issue.
and 67camaro, thats exactly the type of photos i'm talking about with the caltracs, it shows the degree of body separation they create. i love 'em (bet you couldnt tell ;) )
i agree the ssm bars are workable, but i think the first thing i personally would do (in fact i did) is caltracs, and go from there. i've dealt with ssm bars, and just was not impressed.
however i didn't even consider tire size, that is a short tire. i think they might be onto something there, with a 27 or 28" tire. i run 28's with my 3.73, but i wish i'd gone deeper with gears also, then again freeways are not an issue for me. isnt racing dual purpose cars fun?
honestly, i would 1) consider a bit taller tire, esp. if your close to needing some. (seriously look at the M/T drag radials). 2) get the caltracs, and 3) if you decide to, get a different converter. thats just how i'd do it, not that its right or wrong. i would first try to get your combo hooking first, then go from there. i went from babying it out of the hole, with hellacious spring wrap up, to dead hooking in dog $hit with my caltracs. plus they dont hinder the ride when preload is out, making them very nice on the street.
hey, isn't there a post somewhere here right now about a guy considering taking his caltracs off for a more "pro tour" effect? hmmmm.
good luck no matter what you do. and hell, i hear you about street tire night, those skinny little radials kill the track. i bet if you get a good surface and carb tuning alone, and your knockin' on 10's. but i feel you should be INTO the 10's, once its dialed in suspension wise.

The front suspension needs to work or the rear never will.

It would be a good idea to head out to an event that you know will provide better then average track prep....along with good tires, and see if the "problem" you have is still there.
It needs to be able to hook on a good track before it can be tuned for a marginal track.

I agree with the 28" tire advice. I think they give a better contact patch and may help a bit. Most of the guys running narrow tire classes seem to run the 28 instead of the 26.

Also, you said you have the SSM bars pre-loaded. I assume that was after a lot of trial and error, but if not, try backeing them off a bit. I say that because of my experience with slapper bars. I chased traction issues for a long time but the cure to the problem was actually widening the snubber gap to 2" which is contrary to what everyone (even CE) will tell you, but it works for me.

On the video I noticed that my car would really rise up during the brake stall. So, when the time came to launch, all of the lifting energy was already spent so the tires would break loose. I kept widening the snubber gap so the car would not lift as much sitting still. When I launch now, I have a nice gradual rise in the rear end that take 5-10 feet before full extension.

I know different traction devices react differently, but this worked for me and cost nothing other than time.

Good luck!

Interesting idea . . . which is better, a taller tire with a shallower-than-optimum gear for better traction or a shorter tire with the same gear for better TQ multiplication.

I seems to me that a shorter tire if you can get it to hook would run the faster ET. But then again, if a taller tire hooks better it stands to reason that the taller tire would improve ET in the first 60' -- I can see it both ways.

The question for me is, how do we get a short tire to hook to get the best of both worlds? I specifically went to a wider 26" tall tire this go-round because with the tire being shorter I wanted the widest contact patch I can get. This tire just barely fits -- I think that I would have to go to a narrower tire if I went taller . . .

BTW I'm running a 26x11.5x15LT Hoosier QTP. I think I'd have to go to a 27x10.5x15LT or 28x10.5x15LT if went taller.

I have a 28" x 11.5 Hoosier QTP on mine, and it fits with room to spare. Un-touched wheel well.

Stock height springs

http://hobbystage.net/camaro/camaroracer/1112982264-006217.jpg

do you Deep Stage when you race? Can you at your track? That coincides with a taller front tire for closer to optimal Weight bias.

I would definetly use a Taller tire and more Gear, rather then a shorter tire and less gear.

IMO your combo at this point needs a 4.33 or 4.56 gear, even though it may be too much to deal with for the drive to and from.

Just another of Many excuses to post a picture of my car :D hehehehe.

Eric,
Don't give up the street gears unless you really want to start competing and not driving the car. I am always impressed with "street cars" on "street tires" that run hard. Now if you are chasing points that's a different story.

Hooking on 26" tall tires is challenging, I fought it for a long time and never really got them to hook (I didn't have as nice of tires as you run though).

I also think the Caltracs are hard to beat for a bolt on traction bar. Honestly I don't think you can beat them for a bolt on. They work!! (lots of 8 and 9 second small tire cars running them). You might want to look at the QA1 adjustable rear shocks as well, that makes tuning to track conditions a matter of a few clicks, they work well. I have never tried the Rancho shocks that were mentioned, if they are cheaper and do the same thing then go for it.

While with more stall and more gear you "might" go quicker, if you can't get the gear and stall you have now to hook, adding more will only make the problem worse (IMO).

Either way you look at it that is a VERY hard running "true" street car. I think you have more in it but, you should be proud with what you have already accomplished with a pump gas small block on street tires (no juice and no trailer).

If I were in your shoes I think I would try shocks first and then Caltracs (maybe a taller tire before the Caltracs, that's a toss up).

Here's a shot of my '67 with Cal-Tracs.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/mgalbr/images\misc\yourview.jpg

Eric,

Cool video! :cool: I will leave the advice to those that know more than I, but I was curious, what was the temp (air/track) up there in Michigan? Anyway glad to see racing season has started again for you and the withdrawals (sp) are over for another year :hurray:

Victor

o.k., heres a shameless photo op of my car ;) with cal tracs, you can see how they look from the side.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/rs406/68rs.jpg
it kind of has the tractor look in this pic, its 1" lower in back now, the front needs it too. its just that the suspension works so well, i'm afraid to mess with it.
btw eric, what front spring are you running, is that the 6308 or whatever moog 6 cyl replacement? and whats the front end height with a coil out?

68rs406, looks great to me :D your shameless photo op, is kinda like my shameless in-car video clip LOL

The Caltracs do sorta blend in -- can't really see much at all from behind on Garret's car either.

Next step is the Rancho 9 ways . . . we'll see how that goes. Then I can borrow a set of 27" tall MT drag radials next. Then Caltracs and springs if things go south, but I doubt they will . . .

ps. someone asked weather . . . the day started at 65* and crept up to 75* by mid-afternoon -- it was actually more like that early summer air. You know what they say about Michigan . . . if you don't like the weather wait 5 minutes.

Eric I was curious as to how you launch. DO you Load the converter up and then dump it or do you wait and then till you see the 3rd amber then stopm on it? I have heard mixed answers as to wich is best. I usuly try to hold one foot on the brake and the other on the gas and bring it up to 3000 and then launch on the 3rd amber.. but I was courios as to you u do it.

thanks eric. but your video has me beat on coolness for sure :) .
i'd like to get an in car of mine also, it is very cool to be able to watch it over and see what the car is doing.
i also want to get some in car of the nova we race, all i get to see is the taillights leaving, QUICKLY, from the starting line. that things doing 142 in the 1/8, some in car would be sweet. i'll have to look into that this year.
which springs are you running up front?

Hey 67_camaro,
You planning on test-n-tune at RMR this Saturday??
I'll probably be there hangin with the Strange Creek Racing boys...Kevin, and Dan.
Love the way your wife's car hooks!

Hey Eric here's the largest tire you can fit under there with original height.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/991714/DSCN2021.jpg

They are 29 X 11.5 QTPs

I surely need those for my 496ci.
They do not toutch anywere.

Good luck with the 10.XXX this year!
Luc

Lucco, did you need to modify any portion of the quarter panel lip?

No I did not do any modification. Except for the lip in front/back of the tire was plied inside a bit with a hamer but not the top one, the suspension is stiff though.

Luc.

Hey 67_camaro,
You planning on test-n-tune at RMR this Saturday??
I'll probably be there hangin with the Strange Creek Racing boys...Kevin, and Dan.
Love the way your wife's car hooks!


We'll be there for sure. Nancy cant wait to run the new Vette.

Lee

Dang Luc . . . looks like tire growth at a buck 10 or so would be enough to get those meats skimming the fender lip. LOL

The difference in tire height affects the shape of the contact patch. At taller tire will have a longer (front to back) contact patch than a shorter one due to the larger diameter. For whatever reason, a longer contact patch hooks better than a wider one given the same total square inches of contact patch.

You will lose NOTHING in performance going to a 28" tire. I went from 26 to 28 and saw no change in e.t., just better hooking. With the right converter it won't matter. It's just like guys switching directions from 3.73 to 4.10. With the proper converter you don't see perfomormance change, just RPM change at the top end.

My friends blown big block 68 used to run 9" slicks with J-bolts. We actually had the slow down the suspension to get the car to hook. Both the front and back. We ended up with the front at 50-50 and the back at the stiffest upward setting.

You must have raced last Sunday..we had the same weather here in IN. last week, it was actually hot by 1-2 PM..now today it's 58 deg for a high. HAHA

You know Greg, as I recall when I switched to the 26" tire from the 27" tire I actually went .02-.03 faster with more trap RPM. Not a big difference really -- it was kind of hard to tell if there was difference.

I think the 26" QTP's are actually 26.4" tall and the 27" QTP's are 27.1" tall so the difference is really only about 3/4"

Next time around with tires I'll probably try out the MT radials . . . 27" tall this time. I don't think I should go all the way to a 28" tire my relatively shallow gear.

You guys need to continue being "shameless". Man, I love all of those pictures and especially the videos. Got my '69 out of the paint shop a couple of weeks ago and will post pictures soon.

You guys need to continue being "shameless". Man, I love all of those pictures and especially the videos. Got my '69 out of the paint shop a couple of weeks ago and will post pictures soon.

How's this for shameless....this is my brother's 10 sec Nova. Ran 10.90's with a 468 BBC. The motor is undergoing a bore/stroke to 498 with AFR 315's, and he's hoping for 10.30's, driving it to the track. He is using a "homemade" Caltrac-type setup.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/69%20Camaro/6120By20The20Cabin.jpg

Oh crap, that's the wrong picture.

Is this better?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/69%20Camaro/DCP03333.jpg

Just put the Nova motor in the VW and make a wheelie car :D

Nice car . . .

My tires are MT street slicks, 28/12.5/15 on 8" wheels with 4.5" back spacing and fit inside the wells. (just a shameless excuse to post a photo)

http://www2.hotboat.com/image_center/data/506/226IMAGE046.JPG

very nice camaro!!!