: Any electricians here?
Dec 27th, 03, 04:58 PM
I know this is a little off topic, but I figure since most of us are DIY'ers anyway maybe someone can help with a quick queston.
I want to put a 220/240 outlet in the garage so that my wife's uncle can bring over his Lincoln 175 and help with the Camaro. I have some empty space in the breaker box which happens to be in the addition right behind the garage. So I'm thinking it should be a simple task of running wire up the wall, through the attic and back down. But what is involved in adding the breaker to the box? And how many amps should the breaker be rated for?
I don't want to risk burning the place down, and will hire someone if needed, but this seems like it should be pretty simple since I'm not talking about a series of outlets with light switches etc. Can anyone offer some advice? graemlins/beers.gif
Dec 27th, 03, 05:08 PM
working with electricty can be deadly if you dont know what your doing.
What you need to know is what the welder requires amp wise and the style the plug is. That will dictate what amp breaker you need. Then you size the wire for the breaker size. You will need a two pole breaker that is tied together and attches to each buss in the panel. If you need more help you can send me an E-Mail at firstname.lastname@example.org
Dec 28th, 03, 01:19 AM
The aforementioned braker in 50 amps, awg 8 wire and the correspondent receptacle will suffice. As Wade said, working with electricty can be deadly if you dont know what your doing.
Dec 28th, 03, 03:10 AM
What you want to do is relatively simple. A good suggestion is to run the wire first, leaving both ends near where you want them...(near the circuit breaker enclosure, and near your new outlet. Purchase everything else you would need..then mount the outlet box ( you'll probably need a steel one with a romex connector, or if you are using the steel jacketed wire a bx connector. )
Then run the wire into the outlet box and quit there. Since you are uncomfortable with the rest of the job, now call someone in. A good electrician can wire the outlet and install the breaker into the box in 20 minutes or less if you already have the wiring in place. The rate for a good electrician is probably $50-$60/hour...probably 1 hour minimum. You'll save time by pre-running the wire, which will save you money.
Now you have the satisfaction of doing part of it yourself, and the peace of mind (for only 50 or 60 bucks) of a professional job.
Be sure to watch the guy do the work. Some electricians don't like you to look over their shoulder, but if you find the right one he probably won't mind.
Watch and learn from a pro. Think of it as a $50 crash course.!!! :D
Dec 28th, 03, 03:56 AM
I would do what Bill suggested.I ran a subpanel out to my garage.Since im no electrician, i researched the size wire i would need for the run,dug out the trench laid the correct PVC with the wire in it and mounted the panel.I found an electrician who hooked up the wires in each box that took him about 15 minutes.I threw him $75 and i can sleep at night not worrying about my house burning down!
Dec 28th, 03, 06:54 AM
Another thought, is the Main breaker box a 100 amp or 150 or 200? If its only 100amp, your new 50amp breaker might overload that master breaker if the wife has her oven on and the dryer and the kids have a curling iron running. You need to visit with an electrician to make sure you are not pulling all the amps to your welder which might overload the master breaker unless everyone else is not using alot of juice in the house too at the same time.
Dec 28th, 03, 09:30 AM
just promise us you will be carefull man!
Dec 28th, 03, 08:55 PM
well as a matter of fact i am a journeyman union electrician, (love the job by the way graemlins/thumbsup.gif ).
the tips given are very good ones indeed. i especially agree with 69pacer, and click had a very good point as well, just because you have the space doesn't mean you can handle the extra load. but, generally you rarely use much of your available amperage, especially if you have gas appliances.
it is actually a simple operation, IF you are an electrician. i would probably talk to a real journeyman about it first, let him take a look at it. (you have got to know an electrician,dont you?). too bad i dont live closer, with simple jobs i'll help out fellow hotrodders, or at least consult for barley ;)
as was said though, seriously, be careful. people who will tell you "aw its just 120 or 240" are none too smart. more people are killed from house voltage than any other. if you are feeling handy, do as was said above. if in fact its a 50A breaker, #8 wire would do, you can use the same stuff as they use for appliances in homes, a 3 or 4 conductor cable, depending on what the welder requires. get the outlet, mount the plug on the wall, run the wire and call an electrician. and in reality, just get the parts and let him do it, or its kind of like taking your already apart car to a mechanic, if you know what i mean.
as for cost, don't know what prices are like in your area, but when i was doing service work, it was 65$ to show up at the door, and 80$ an hour. this is actually pretty reasonable around this area. and if you do hire it out, make sure its a reputable shop, i've seen so called "electricians" do more damage than an unknowing homeowner graemlins/angry.gif
at any rate, good luck with what you choose to do, the suggestions that were given are good ones, and i'll be glad to answer any other questions as well graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Dec 29th, 03, 02:04 AM
Guys, I appreciate the input so far! Believe me, I don't plan to do anything that I think would harm myself or house. I just thought it seems like a simple "plug in" type job.
FWIW, we have two breaker boxes, one for the original part of the house and a second that feeds the kitchen/family room/bed room addition. The second box is the one that I'm looking at as it only carries the oven and the recepticals/lighting for the addition. The label in the box states that it can handle 150 amps, and the main cutoff breaker is 100 amps.
I did some research and found that the welder input requirements are "Input Power-208/230/1/60 Input Current @ Rated Output-23/21A".
The plug type is not like the standard clothes dryer or oven, but more like a common 110 volt plug with a ground, but slightly larger. So based upon the info above, does that change anything? I'm thinking the breaker should be 30amp and I wonder if I should go with 10-2 or 12-2 wire due to the reduction in amps?
The part of the job that is an unknown for me is the actual installation of the new breaker. I have done some minor household wiring in existing circuits before under a friends advice, but he's moved and I don't know any other electricians. I hate to spend a couple hundred on something like this because I feel I can handle it with some guidance.
I found this diagram circuit (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html)
Could I just look at the way the 60 amp oven circuit breaker is hooked up and mirror that?
[ 12-29-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: bretcopsey ]
Dec 29th, 03, 02:09 AM
Man, I would hire someone (a licensed technician) and let them worry about it. Paying him/her to do it corectly will be a lot cheaper than paying for a new garage ) :eek:
Dec 29th, 03, 04:26 AM
Hey Bret, the installation of that breaker is not that big of a deal. You need to make sure that the wire is sized properly for the breaker. If you are using a 30 amp breaker, you need at least the #10 wire. The connections are pretty simple. The red and black go to the double pole breaker and the white to the neutral buss. I've been an electrician for AK Steel in Middletown for 31 years and have done residential installations for nearly that long, and what you have is not that complicated. I"m not sure where in Ohio you are, but if it's close and you need help, I'd be glad to help at no charge.
Dec 29th, 03, 05:00 AM
TrentonZ28, I'm in Carlisle. I've been trough Trenton a few times years ago when I was going to Miami in Oxford and it seems like a nice quiet town.
Anyway, I appreciate the advice and offer of assistance! I think I'm going to look a little more closely at making the run from inside the attic and under the panel cover to see what exactly I'm getting into before I make a final decision on what to do. To be honest though it probably would give me a warm fuzzy feeling to have someone watching over my shoulder. graemlins/beers.gif
Dec 29th, 03, 06:29 AM
Closer then I ever dreamed, I know Carlisle well. When are you wanting to do this? Shouldn't take long. I have plans to go to Florida for a few days on Wednesday to see my parents, so we'll have to plan with that in mind. I'll be back Sunday night.
Dec 29th, 03, 07:00 AM
I'll get in touch with you after you're back. I'm not in that big of a hurry because the wife's uncle will be coming up from Harveysburg and I don't think that will be anytime real soon. I also have to work my schedule around four small kids.
Enjoy the New Year's celebration in Florida!!
Dec 29th, 03, 08:11 AM
Dec 29th, 03, 01:59 PM
hey sweet, looks like you found an electrician graemlins/thumbsup.gif .
according to the nameplate you'll need a 60a breaker, (2 pole) and a minimum of #6 wire. remember, you are concerned with the input amps/voltage, not output. while its hard to say without standing there looking at the welder, i'm sure #10 would be very short lived running it :eek: . i imagine a three conductor #6 romex will do you fine, and yes, its a basic mirror image of yor range wiring, although many of the newer houses use a 4 conductor cable with thier own ground on dryers and ranges (code reasons) so that would be your only variance, if at all.
sounds like you have some help so cool, and i would reccomend investigating your path in advance, you never know what you might run into, good luck graemlins/thumbsup.gif
Dec 29th, 03, 04:31 PM
Local laws do vary but here Romex is not allowed if exposed or unprotected. In a garage I use flexible conduit (flex) if I'm too lazy to bent EMT. Suggest 3/4 'cause 1/2 will be a tight pull.
Dec 29th, 03, 05:23 PM
good point john. in a shop i would by all means use emt, unless you can fish it through the walls, which may be the cleanest method. johns right, romex is not allowed anywere its exposed to physical damage, according to the national electrical code. another easy way would be to just use a schedule 80 pvc, its easy to install, just buy fittings and glue it together. emt would look better however. and oh yeah, definately 3/4 pipe, unless your not the one pullin' ;)
Dec 30th, 03, 05:40 PM
Actually, isn't the "60" on the nameplate stand for the frequency. 208volts,1phase,60Hz.
Dec 30th, 03, 06:30 PM
it could be. like i said w/o being there or seeing a picture, its tough to say. but i would just about bet its 208/230 volts, 1 phase, 60 amps. since thats all of the info given by brett, and its listed after that as "input current", one can only figure thats what it means, current i.e., amps. there could be some info missing, but the output is definately not going to help with wire or breaker size.
of course there is some assuming with that, and you know what happens when you assume ;) . can you show us a picture bret? or maybe a link to the welder manufacturer site and type of welder, and i'll be able to say for sure.
kool, i see your an electrician in the area, who are you working for, are you a local 46 member? graemlins/thumbsup.gif
EDIT: o.k, i was poking around lincolns website, and they list as you listed bret, and they do appear to be reffering to the cycles (60 Hz), the way they list the ratings on thier site. so if in fact the 60 listed is Hz (or cycles), it should say so. but there needs to be an amperage rating for the input there somewhere. what throws me off is after the ratings you list it says "input current", hmmm, now i'm curious. i've really never dealt with home type welders, so i'm not picturing what the nameplate looks like. all the welders i've hooked up are usually brought in on a flatbed, and are 3 phase.
i'm interested in more info just for curiousity sake graemlins/thumbsup.gif
[ 12-30-2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: 68rs406 ]
Dec 31st, 03, 01:58 AM
Sorry for the confusion on that info. There was a chart near the bottom of the page that I wanted to cut and past but couldn't. So I just cut the info out of the chart.
I took it as 208/230 volts, 1 phase, 60hz.
Input amps was listed as 23/21A.
Here's a link to the info, bottom of page 1:
Dec 31st, 03, 07:12 AM
That looks like a little guy pulling 23 amps @220 volts. I'd pull 12 gage through 1/2 inch conduit and breaker it with a 20 amp 220 breaker. 12-3 BX cabling will do it but personally don't like to work with it.
Dec 31st, 03, 10:37 AM
As you can see everyone has there own opinion of how to go about doing this job. IMO I think that you need to consult with an electrician. Most of the work is bull work and almost anyone with mechanical ability can do it, but just like most jobs there a little tricks and most of them to the common observer they don't seem relevant. I would like to stress that you are talking about Fire safety here. If this is done wrong you could burn down your garage and all of its contents. That is just my opinion.
PS. I read it 208volt=23amps /230volts=21amps, 1 phase, 60hz.
I have a Lincoln SP-170T and according to the operators manual. Quote
"Line Cord Connection
A 3 connector line cord with a 50 amp, 250 volt, three prong plug (NEMA Type 6-50P) is factory installed. Connect this plug to a mating grounded receptacle which is connected to an appropriate power supply per the U.S. National Electrical Code and any applicable local codes.
Input voltage 208/230,
Type 70degC wire in conduit Copper Conductor AWG Size #8,
Grounding Wire Copper Conductor AWG Size #10
Fuse or Breaker Size 40 super Lag
Warning The U.S. National Electric Code ( Artical 630-B, 1990 Edition) provides standards for amperage handling capability of supply conductors based on duty cycle of welding source."
Good luck and be safe.
[ 12-31-2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: J Meadows ]
Dec 31st, 03, 01:52 PM
68rs406, What,s up brother graemlins/thumbsup.gif Acually I'm a 4th year, but I'm in local46. I've been working with EPIC electric at the new library in seattle doing control work; until 2:30 today. Got laid off.
Dec 31st, 03, 09:31 PM
o.k., with that info it does make sense. this is kind of interesting since this is an area i don't usually work in, but its really all the same. j meadows sums it up nicely, i agree you should have an electrician at least there, not only is it a fire hazard, but it can injure or kill you right quick.
the info j meadows gives is exactly what you need. the '04 national elect code, art 630, gives duty cycle multiplication factors for conductor ampacity, and also contains more info that may pertain to your situation. bottom line is it wont be as simple as just selecting wire based on primary input amps, and likely your needs will be exactly what he lists, #8 wire, #10 ground, 40a breaker. part of art 630 also discusses sizing the breaker to 200% of the rating, or if 21a, it would be 42 amps, (40a breaker), and #8 wire. good info there.
Kool, very sweet, having gone through an apprenticeship is graemlins/thumbsup.gif . my cousin Ken is a 4th year in 46, hes been working for EHS downtown, i believe he was at the UW for awhile (hes also into camaros). i'm a member of 191, thats were i went through my apprenticeship as well. i'm currently working on the new county jail in everett, its a couple year job at least.
J Meadows, i see your also a brother from lewiston, thats cool. what local is that? you guys staying busy or been slow like most everyone else? its real good to see a few fellow union wiremen on here, right on graemlins/beers.gif
Jan 1st, 04, 06:18 AM
graemlins/thumbsup.gif I'm with local 73 out of Spokane, I work as a Maintaince Electrician, been doing it for 33 years only 9 more to go. graemlins/beers.gif
Jan 1st, 04, 05:47 PM
lucky dog ;) , i'm looking at about another 20. oh well, at least we have something to look forward to, and in the mean time the camaros will take our minds off of it graemlins/beers.gif