Hate to be the bearer of bad news fellas....but this is a sad day for the F-Body.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/21/A01-123402.htm

[ 03-21-2005, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: Infamous ]

I'm looking in my crystal ball ....... I see a Chrysler built rwd car in your future.

GM ..... get your head back out in the sunshine!

I think I'll cut up my GM card. I wont be needing the 5% back for a new GM product.

Well that kills my dream of the 502 EFI 6-speed camaro,Boy are they out of there minds, That car posted by Novaderik in another thread here would sell like hotcakes, bet they couldnt keep up with the orders for them ,,, WAKE UP GM,,Frank

All I got out of that is GM has realized they can't compete in the market they are after with a fleet of expensive cars that the Zeta platform would produce. Who is going to pay $10k+ more than a mustang for a Camaro or GTO? The'll sell a few but won't get the sales numbers ford is seeing with the new mustang.

The article also says they are not giving up on rwd vehicles. Let's just see what plays out over the next couple years...

The platform isn't being cancelled, just postponed. The article says it would delay the car about a year? I don't know where this guy got THAT idea. Try 3 to 4 years, buddy. That's the average. Believe me...I've been through this before, a number of times. I know how it plays out.

This sucks....BIG TIME.

I think that as car enthusiasts we tend to view the automotive market place through rose colored glasses. The fact of the matter is that GM or Ford aren't making cars for people like us, they are making cars for the other 95% of the population. Ford will sell more minivans and trucks this year than they will the new Mustang. There is a very small market for two door sport coupes and right now that market is overwhelmed by the imports. GM would be stupid to reintroduce the Camaro right now because it just wouldn't sell in quantities sufficient to make it worth the effort.

Scott....are you aware that right now Ford is having problems keeping up with the demand for the new Mustang?

Here's the story. (http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/mustang18e_20050318.htm)

On the contrary...I think this is the perfect time to introduce a new f-body.

Originally posted by Infamous:
Scott....are you aware that right now Ford is having problems keeping up with the demand for the new Mustang?
I didn't say anything about the production problems that Ford was having with the new Mustang. I said that Ford will sell more trucks and minivans this year than Mustangs and that is a fact. GM has some very smart executives, even smarter than you, and they have made the decisions that they have made for some very good reasons. Those reasons all revolve around what is profitable and what is not profitable. The F-body was no longer a profitable product so it was canned, it won't be coming back.

General Motors Corp. has killed plans for a new line of rear-wheel drive passenger cars slated to reach North American showrooms in 2008Doesn't sound like a postponment...

GM's decision to kill the Zeta program puts the brakes on development of the next generation Pontiac GTO sports car, and new entries for Chevrolet, Buick and Pontiac.More...

he pulled the plug on the North America models after determining the vehicles could not be engineered and assembled to sell at prices competitive with the popular Chrysler 300C, Ford Mustang and other models "While work on particular North American applications of our premium rear-wheel drive midsize vehicle architecture have indeed been stopped, we have begun to study new approaches to efficiently capitalize on future opportunities we see for future midsize rear-wheel drive applications,"Sounds like they don't plan on bringing the Zeta back...

Originally posted by Scott Taylor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Infamous:
Scott....are you aware that right now Ford is having problems keeping up with the demand for the new Mustang?
I didn't say anything about the production problems that Ford was having with the new Mustang. I said that Ford will sell more trucks and minivans this year than Mustangs and that is a fact. GM has some very smart executives, even smarter than you, and they have made the decisions that they have made for some very good reasons. Those reasons all revolve around what is profitable and what is not profitable. The F-body was no longer a profitable product so it was canned, it won't be coming back. </font>[/QUOTE]Then why are they still making the SSR and GTO?

What suks the most is that GM is wasting more time and energy producing bigger trucks and SUV's! What happens when people decide they don't want to buy vehicles that get 12 mpg because of higher gas prices? GM will be stuck with tons of trucks and no product in the other market segment. GM looks like they are in serious trouble. They are just way too far behind the curve. I went by a Hummer dealer the other day and their lot was packed with Hummers. Why do they even make that ridiculous vehicle? These huge trucks and SUV's are getting banned from more roads and bridges in our area all the time. People are sick of trying to drive near these things on back roads. Bigger is not better, GM needs to figure that out real fast.

Originally posted by Jeff H:
What suks the most is that GM is wasting more time and energy producing bigger trucks and SUV's! What happens when people decide they don't want to buy vehicles that get 12 mpg because of higher gas prices? GM will be stuck with tons of trucks and no product in the other market segment. GM looks like they are in serious trouble. They are just way too far behind the curve. I went by a Hummer dealer the other day and their lot was packed with Hummers. Why do they even make that ridiculous vehicle? These huge trucks and SUV's are getting banned from more roads and bridges in our area all the time. People are sick of trying to drive near these things on back roads. Bigger is not better, GM needs to figure that out real fast. I agree. GM seems to be a follower instead of a leader. If it takes so long to get a new vehicle to market, they'll continue to suffer unless they get a better grasp on what's going to matter in the future

GM has some very smart executives, even smarter than you.Who told you I was smart? Couldn't have been my Wife, that's for sure.

The F-body was no longer a profitable product so it was canned Argueably one of the greatest misconceptions in automotive history. I assure you, the Camaro was not 'canned' because it wasn't selling well. We stopped production on the F-body because the current architecture was outdated and a suitable replacement was still 3 or 4 years out. Management made the decision that the 4th gen just didn't have the 'reach' to survive during that time, so they decided to let the car sit it out and wait for it's new underpinnings. Now, whether they'll bring the Camaro back on this new architecture is anyones guess, but that's why I posted the story for all to read...it's just an unfortunate delay for an architecture that could have supported a new Camaro if they decide to bring the car back in the near future.

-----------------------------------------------

DJD...I'm hearing that it's just been pushed back. Now, that could mean a couple of things. It could mean it is indeed canceled or it could mean that they are revamping the current architecture. We'll know more in the next few months. I can't see them starting a whole new architecture...that would delay the cars by at least 5 or 6 years. We absolutely cannot afford that.

[ 03-21-2005, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Infamous ]

graemlins/sad.gif GM

Bob Lutz graemlins/angry.gif

What helped kill the Camaro? GM treating it like a red headed step child. They dropped most all Camaro advertising, then said "look, it isn't selling". There is a lot of inter-company politics at the Generals house. With the Z28 Camaro costing 10 G's less than the new GTO and 20 G's less than a Corvette, and performing as well, some of the other team players had a case of the a$$.

"GM has some very smart executives, even smarter than you."

You were kidding, right?

Go to the fastlane blog for more on this from Lutz

Blog Link (http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/03/zeta_not_the_en.html)

I don't see how a person would buy a new car , I guess if you had some bigtime job that paid 25 to 30K a year you could but who would you have to be to do that ? that is why the camaro died out people could not buy them ,

Originally posted by RS3SDL2MG:
I don't see how a person would buy a new car , I guess if you had some bigtime job that paid 25 to 30K a yearWow I'm moving to Kentucky if 25-30k a year is a big time job! 50-60k in my area is a "barely making it" income, particularly if you own a house and have a couple of kids. 125-150k is a "big time' job in these parts.

Originally posted by Scott Taylor:
I think that as car enthusiasts we tend to view the automotive market place through rose colored glasses. The fact of the matter is that GM or Ford aren't making cars for people like us, they are making cars for the other 95% of the population. Ford will sell more minivans and trucks this year than they will the new Mustang. There is a very small market for two door sport coupes and right now that market is overwhelmed by the imports. GM would be stupid to reintroduce the Camaro right now because it just wouldn't sell in quantities sufficient to make it worth the effort. Like the SSR and HHR? Don't get me wrong, the SSR is a really cool vehicle, but at $48,000? I definetely wouldn't classify that as being for the majority, and the problem is that it is also out of reach for 95% of the "Rose Colored Glasses" group. As much as I like the vehicle, from a logical standpoint it was in left field. I just wish they would use the resources to target the "whole" 5% (ie: Camaro) instead of 5% of the 5%,(if that makes any sense).

As far as the HHR, it's 5 years too late, and the ugliest thing to come out of GM since the Aztek. :D

67convertible the only ones here that make money like that are the ones that pull those slip and fall (ie I hurt my back at work) type deals , they ride new cars and have full medical and all the fixins , I was not brought up that way and never would do that , if I made 30K a year I would not know how to act or what to do , that would be more than double anything I have ever made ,

The point I was trying to make is the salaries are tied with the cost of living for the area of the country we live in. We have those scammers also, who are looking for an easy way out. I would never do that either. A fixer-upper house goes for 300-400k around here, most that need little or no work start at 450k. so the salaries have to be at a livable rate or no one could afford to live in this area. At my work we pay part-time help at a starting hourly rate of $15 and have a hard time getting people. I certainly meant no dis-respect to you and hope you didn't take it that way.

no problem , I just laugh about it , my 14 year old daughter says the only difference in me and those deadbeat dad's you see on tv that won't pay child support is that I live here !!! :D

25-30K? I make ~41K and I have to sit in a crappy apartment cause I cant afford to buy a house right now unless I want 0 money saved or to have any fun with. It's all about the area. Charlotte isn't LA or anything, but it ain't cheap all the time either. Gotta have 60+ to really be able to relax these days around here. Some places (new york, LA, San Fran) you better have 6 figures or you are damn poor.

I've managed to pay off all my debt but my truck, and am trying to save for a down payment in the next couple of years...

If I made under 30 I'd have to have roommates to be able to live on my own.

it ain't no fun :(

has killed plans for a new line of rear-wheel drive passenger cars slated to reach North American showrooms in 2008, in large part to free up resources to bring its next generation of large pickups and sport utility vehicles to market quicker. Apparantly Mr. Lutz has a corporate gas card and hasn't paid attention to price per gallon in the last year! Just what we need, more full size trucks. By the time they hit the showroom, gas should be pushing 3 bucks a gallon, and you won't be able to give a way a full size truck even at 0% financing for ten years! Once again GM is a day late and a dollar short! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How much gas do you think a 400 horsepower Camaro is going to consume?

"Rest assured, we remain committed to developing RWD, premium,
high-performance, affordable vehicles, perhaps even a few with a trace of nostalgia baked in."

Sure Bob. Lets get on the ball.

MPG for a 400hp car ?? as low as 6 and as high as 35. Depends on how driven,carb,fuel injection,power adder (turbo,super charger)weight,gears,overdrive,ect,ect,ect.

A lot less than a new Suburban or Z71.

Originally posted by Infamous:
How much gas do you think a 400 horsepower Camaro is going to consume? My old 93 Z28 Indy 500 Pace Car made over 400 hp with a Powerdyne superchager and I averaged 17.5 mpg every day driving and it got 26-28 on the highway. None of those 6000 lb bricks they call trucks are going to get anywhere near that. Heck, GM can't even make a truck the right way. The SS is an extra cab all wheel drive truck. The only decent truck they made was the ZR2 S10 and they did away with that. Of course Toyota just made the Tacoma larger too so it appears to be an industry wide problem that manufacturers think we need bigger trucks. We don't! Please stop building huge, worthless, gas guzzling trucks. Sorry about the rant.

Hey,look on the bright side. We still have the 50K+ Corvette. It seems like it`s been all about the Corvette when it comes to HI-PO at Chevy these days. Sure it`s a world beater, but I`m priced out. I wonder if Chevy would have taken the "Aussie`wonder", stripped it down and gave it a name, would it have sold? Didn`t want to give it a classic name here for fear of rock hurling. Oh by the way, did I mention the CobaltSS? No? Good!-----Scott

Originally posted by sicsD8:
Apparantly Mr. Lutz has a corporate gas card and hasn't paid attention to price per gallon in the last year! Just what we need, more full size trucks. By the time they hit the showroom, gas should be pushing 3 bucks a gallon, and you won't be able to give a way a full size truck even at 0% financing for ten years! Once again GM is a day late and a dollar short! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: WTF are you talking about? There is no way in hell GM or any manf. could predict gas prices over the span it takes to bring a new vehicle to market.

If that is the way you think then anybody who manufactures a full size truck will have the same "problem". Why should your comment be GM exclusive?

CFunk- I'd greatly appreciate you not use abbreviated profanity direct at me. If you had a clue as to what you were talking about, you'd know that the auto manufacturers have known about the impending long-term and possibly permanent increase in gas prices much longer than the decision to keep going after the full-size truck market. The only reason they have kept after it was the unexpected rise in consumer spending after 9-11. Get a clue, do your homework, and clean up your mouth.

Everyone cool your jets, we all have opinions and since we are not face to face to see how others are reacting to what we say it's best to state your opinion and instead of saying "you don't know wtf you are talking about" and starting a fight, ask the other person to explain what they have said. It makes for much better discussion and I don't have to always be waving that tin star Al gave me!!

Personally I'm not sure big gas guzzlers are going the way of the dinosaur. It's been very evident for some time that gas prices are going up and will keep going up in the US. Both Nissan and Toyota have entered (re-entered) the arena of full size trucks and suv's. What's their motive?

GM has been playing with full size hy-breds and due to loop-holes in tax laws some folks are getting tax breaks on large trucks and suv's.

Sometimes I think modern business has lost it's way with funky research and then things like picture phones are big sellers and I wonder if I'm just not keeping up! As for trucks and suv's it seems everyone has a need for them, tow vehicles are a prime example. Everyone has toys and the best way to transport them to the playground is a trailer. Then every family needs a vehicle that can seat everyone and a friend or two to boot. The 60's and 70's it was station wagons, then vans and minivans and now it's suvs... Kinda makes trucks and suvs sound like the thing to sell even in light of high gas prices.

Car manufacturers are still producing SUV's because of their high profit margins compared to regular cars. Even if the sales drop due to fluctuating gas prices they are still making money off them.

Reference this link to back up my statement.
http://www.locussolus.com/archives/000870.html

Chevrolet couldn't afford to build the Camaro (which had a low profit margin) and sell it at a competitive price with it's dropping sales. Maybe they saw the writing on the wall with the ZETA platform.

Granted if Chevrolet would build a Camaro with some mass appeal and take some of those Mustang buyers away from Ford maybe they would make some money with a Camaro. Unfortunately with their current automobile line-up and recent marketing strategy I highly doubt it...and their new Camaro probably would have been a disappointment.

This subject is getting old and only brings frustration to GM performance enthusiasts.

Dennis- Didn't mean to rock the boat, but I was under the impression that this is a clean family-oriented site, and wouldn't want my two kids reading posts such as the one above directed at me by CFunk. If the rules have changed allowing profanity within posts, direct or implied, please let me know.

Back to the topic, I agree that the fullsize truck market is booming larger than ever to even include a new entry from Honda of all companies. It is because the gas guzzlers are what the American public has asked for as of late. Since the events of 9-11, and the falling returns of investments at about the same time, people have decided to splurge and go all out buying the biggest, most luxurious trucks they can find. The loophole in the emissions laws have made this a lucrative market. But I personally feel as personal resources start to run dry and the "have fun while we're still alive" attitude of post 9-11 starts to diminish, reality will set in and the cost of running a full-size truck as a daily driver will begin to take it's toll for many people in the near future. There's a possible recession on the horizon with some job markets beginning to stall and the cost of utilities going thru the roof. People will begin to return to the econo cars for daily transportation and look for fun cars such as the possible new camaro for weekend only thrills. If you were to talk to insiders within the auto industry, you would find that they are more suprised than anyone that the public has continued to seek the full-size truck market as daily transportation. But, they are always willing to take your money, and the profit margin is quite a bit nicer on a $40k plus truck than a $15k 4 door sedan.

Originally posted by sicsD8:
Dennis- Didn't mean to rock the boat, but I was under the impression that this is a clean family-oriented site, and wouldn't want my two kids reading posts such as the one above directed at me by CFunk. If the rules have changed allowing profanity within posts, direct or implied, please let me know.No rules have changed, profanity is not really appropiate here as it doesn't promote the site as it's intended. There are a few 4 letter words that we'll let slide by unless they are used in direct attacks of others. I don't consider them profane and they don't come up in George Carlin's 7 dirty words... I don't like seeing it implied like WTF as it's generally confrontational and I think I expressed that in my earlier post. I think if a reader knows what it stands for, the bad word's already in their vocabulary though. That doesn't mean I like seeing it used in the forums. If it's not used in an attacking way I may not go out of my way to edit it out or draw attention to it as I have in this case.

sicsD8 - I think Chris will have gotten the message once he reads your reply to him and what I wrote. Were you looking for more? There are so many implied words these days in use in place of the actual profane ones. They are all being used in main stream forms of communications by all ages. I don't like it but I'm not making it a personal goal to right the world.

Well, hell Dennis, you could at least let us know which of the damn 4 letter words we're allowed to use. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-023.gif

OK, first....of course they(Ford) are going to sell more mini vans and pick ups.....fleet vehicles, etc...but I assure you the new mustang will sell alot, and they will make alot of money. GM...........well, I will be nice here, but I will never buy a new GM prduct until they extract something large out of something not so much. I have a 1969 camaro and a 2000 SS. I was thinking of buying the Silverado SS or the Trailblazer SS, but why give them the satisfaction. I will keep what I have and wait a couple of years to see what happens. It would be nice if one of these after market company (like the one doing the 69 re-pop) would go ahead and engineer it, but I am sure it is cost prohibitive......GM, I am ashamed. NRHA and Nascar, etc should pull your memberships.

GM Blog site says GM performance is back??? Cobalt SS??? Maybe there should be some drug testing going on in management??? WOW!!! Enough said.