See this thread and see what you think. I am putting up a poll to see what peolpe here think. other post (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=63443)

I voted to leave the site as-is:

Hi Joe. I'm not so sure the poll is entirely valid as it appears nobody is too sure just what was envisioned. I obviously never explained myself very well in the other topic.

That post was created to highlight an issue that other gen info was mixing in with the traditional first gen answers. Valid concern.

The future goal that I posted about was to allow some interaction with other years without mixing everything together. This forum would look exactly the same, only with just 1st gen information.

IF you wanted to see a forum(s) for other years, you click a box [] in your profile and forums would magically display for them. Searches would be relevant to your interest instead of getting a mix of replies. You could choose to see 1st gen, and say, 4th gen topics, or a mix. This would probably be the same for the classifieds etc... you would only see what specifically interests you. That would be cool.

Non Registered would probably see the entire works and could pick what they wanted.

This is a bit involved and seeing as I'm answering from work yet again (7 days a week) and we do not have 50 flashing sponsor banners on the site, it has been slow in coming (to even the test phase) AND of course causing some frustration with the mix of new/old questions and answers in the same forum. Ground Up Restoration does help with the costs, but the improvements and site expenses are still largely an out of hourly wages scenario on an "as can do" basis.

We are not trying to turn the site into a free-for-all, or ruin what we have built here. There are a lot of years worth of work to just toss away on a whim by frustrating all of our regulars who make the effort to help out and enjoy our camaros.

Instead the goal was to provide better use of our resources and not kick someone off the site because they don't share the exact same interest.

I hope this clarifies what seems to be a perception that things are going to drop into a huge dumpster of information. If it appears technically impossible to do, no problem, we can setup something else on another domain and link to more resources as well.

Ideally it would be nice to be integrated as a larger (single) member base might attract some additional sponsors, discounts for visitors, etc, plus allow only one registration to participate in any topic in any year.

I apologize for not explaining this in detail before but did not expect the question to have come up when it did. I dislike making posts based on maybe's as it creates confusion, like what already happened.

Al

Your already a busy person Al. I love the place just the way it is, but then again I drive a 67 Camaro every day with no A/C in the Hot humid Southern Heat and in Icy snowy winters so I might be a little ol fashioned.

If it changes I will change with it, but don't change anything on "my" account. I love the place you have for us here. I just wish we had a "beers" smiley face in the chat area!

Joe

Al, why dont we have membership here like the Chevelle site. I would be happy to kick in $$$$ for a membership to Team Camaro.

I think the site is just fine as it sits. Some times you need to do your own troubleshooting to get things resolved or at least try to troubleshoot. Not every single question is going to get answered in a day or two. I dont know what some people expect out of this site....

Al, why dont we have membership here like the Chevelle site. I would be happy to kick in $$$$ for a membership to Team Camaro...

I was going to ask that.... what is inside that secret door? The long lost UDHarold perhaps?

the two voting options you gave are like having to choose between leathal injection or the electric chair ???
in an election like this you have a (WRITE IN CANDIDATE) so here is my candidate I want to vote for


,,,,,,,,,,,,(MAKE IT CAMAROS ONLY),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,as I have said for about ohhhhh the last 25 year's >they made the last one in 1970 it was a late 1969 camaro ,
this is not my opinion I wish they would have kept on going with the camaro
BUT THEY DID NOT !

someone need's to start a page for car's made after 1970 , I already know the address for it ,,,,,,,,,www.genericcamaros.com that way if someone wanted to talk about one of those they could do so , and happiness will be all around ,

I was thinking about all this. In this day & age, most people's 1st car is not a 1st Gen Camaro. It isn't practical. I started with a 3rd gen, and worked backwards, if you will. So I think I see both sides.

This reminds me of Porsche guys I used to know. Sometimes Vette guys fall into this trap too. They looked down on other makes/models. They rarely gave an ‘outsider’, especially a young one, the time of day, other than to spout off info about his own car. Or at least that is how this is perceived by the outsider, true or not. And truth isn’t truth, perception is truth.

I have always found Camaro owners (and other similar car types) much more accommodating. I mean, look at the ‘parking lot conversations’ thread. Camaro owners put up with more silliness than Porsche guys ever will. That is one of the reasons I am drawn to the Camaro. There is certain camaraderie.

I hear the older guys at car shows complaining the young people don’t ‘do cars’ anymore. This site is an enormous resource. I don’t think anyone here will deny that. This site, through its vast knowledge and overt generosity in time & energy, is in position to help stave off some of that ‘brain drain’ and help develop new Camaro (and old cars in general) enthusiasts. Why not embrace that, but within reason?

I threw this together on the fly, but maybe it offers some compromise between the ‘1st Gen only’ crowd and the ‘A Camaro is a Camaro’ crowd. Maybe we reshuffle/rename the forums a just bit, making most 67-69 only, and introduce a generic top forum. Based on my experience with similar setups, it should require no new programming tricks either, although I don’t know this software to speak with any surety.

Current Forum Structure:
Camaro Tech
***Camaro Tech 2005
***Body Shop
***Performance
***Interiors
***Tag Team
Specialty
***Restoration Corner, Copo & Dealer, Convertibles
Mechanical
***Engine, Transmission, Brakes & Suspension, Wheels & Tires
***Heating & Cooling, Electrical & Wiring, Troubleshooting
Team Camaro
***Bench Racing, Forum Classifieds, Team Camaro Cruiz-Ins
***Site Discussion, Test Drive!

Suggested Possible Forum Structure:
Welcome!
***Things To Know* (mod only threads w/site usage rules & links to other sites)
***70-02 Camaro Tech 2005
***Other Tech 2005
67-69 Specialties
***67-69 Camaro Tech 2005
***Restoration Corner, Copo & Dealer, Convertibles
67-69 Body & Trim
***Body Shop, Interiors, Tag Team
67-69 Mechanical
***Performance (moved)
***Engine, Transmission, Brakes & Suspension, Wheels & Tires
***Heating & Cooling, Electrical & Wiring, Troubleshooting
Team Camaro
***Bench Racing, Forum Classifieds, Team Camaro Cruiz-Ins
***Site Discussion, Test Drive!

I might suggest a mod only sticky in the top forum that outlines rules. Any specific non-1st Gen question goes in the top forum. 1st Gen question generally follow as today. There will be overlap or situations that a non-1st Gen question lands in the 1st Gen section. Such as a basic question like “opinions of ZZ4 motor’. Mods can move the threads if they don’t belong, as they do now.

Just thought I’d throw this out there for discussion (or kind dismantling :) ). This is a great site. I don't care if it changes at all. Scott-

I just wanted to give my opinion in this topic, i voted to keep this site the way it is...this is the Best site i have ever been to,for Camaro people like us.The people who put this all together should be congratulated for all there hard work and money for all of us to be able to all come together like this in a forum. I appreciate not having to be member or to have to pay dues here,and to still be able to come on this site and ask questions that i need help with, I think this is a real plus. I have three Camoaros 69Z,68SS,68SS 68's for my sons, 69 for me ...i have learned a lot here talking to all the tech's and all the real car buff people like me..so why dont we grow up people and work together on this, and keep a good thing together here...They have worked hard here so we can have somthing that we can all enjoy..lets show some appreciation here by doing the right thing..by all just moving forward with change...Thank-you, for all of you who made this site for all of us to enjoy ....Chris :D

I know some folks have gotten bent out of shape on this topic. I dont think its necessary. Personally, I havent noticed the problem myself, and I would think that many would agree. Seems only a handful or so have voiced a displeasure. I say leave it the way it is. Sure there are some other gen questions that show up here. Truth is, many that are into camaros, are into more than just one gen. A lot of questions/answers translate beyond just the 1st gen cars. If the question cant be answered by anyone here, we can usually point them in the direction of another site that will be more helpful (nasty, for an example). But even still, its a predominantely 1st gen site.


as I have said for about ohhhhh the last 25 year's >they made the last one in 1970 it was a late 1969 camaro ,
this is not my opinion I wish they would have kept on going with the camaro
BUT THEY DID NOT !

I will respectfully disagree on your opinion. Most of my knowledge is on the early cars, and have been building/restoring 1st gen cars for a while. I currently own a 70 RS Z. Beautiful lines (arguably prettier than the 1st gens), and will drive circles around them also. BTW, they never built a 69 body style camaro in the calendar year of 1970.

my .02
dave

im 3 gen 89rs 355 v8 it an auto still cool,and no im not a racer i hate when you tell them u have a fastass car and boom they think you are a racer, but if u are a racer good luck and stay on da road better off in a track

The site and its members should welcome other owners here, regardless of what they drive, to a limit. I don't care for anything about a Yugo.

Site is awesome the way it is, Thanks, Al (tipping my Cubbies ball cap to you)

let me say something here ,,,,, I need to make it clear that it is the car's made after 1970 that I don't care for (NOT PEOPLE WHO OWN THEM) I enjoy the crap out of this site I like looking here daily I just simply don't care for the car's that GM made starting in 1970 , 1970 spelled the begining of the end for muscle car's and I have alway's felt like they did away with them ??? maybe that is stupid but I am not alone lot's and lot's of guy's feel the same way , I just don't understand what could have caused the car maker's to go so much down hill I mean look at say a 1974 camaro type LT berlinta ??? what kind of drug's were they on ??? it just don't make no sense ,


I don't like the post 70 car's , I never did like them , and you can't make me like them , but I have nothing whatsoever against anyone that own's one

Not that I disagree with you (not at ALL!) but the decline of the musclecar in the early 70's due to rising insurance costs, smog laws, and (possibly imagined) fuel shortages might be a subject for a whole 'nother post! But maybe we just shouldn't go there. Let's celebrate the return of the musclecar instead. Today's cars are pretty darned hot, even a (far eastern expletive deleted in advance by me) v6 minivan will smoke the (front!!) tires and get out of it's own way pretty darned well.

Not that I disagree with you (not at ALL!) but the decline of the musclecar in the early 70's due to rising insurance costs, smog laws, and (possibly imagined) fuel shortages might be a subject for a whole 'nother post! But maybe we just shouldn't go there. Let's celebrate the return of the musclecar instead. Today's cars are pretty darned hot, even a (far eastern expletive deleted in advance by me) v6 minivan will smoke the (front!!) tires and get out of it's own way pretty darned well.

True. The new Z06 Vette is a monster-fastest vette ever. And I won't even begin to compare the best 4th gen cars (maybe a 2000-02 SLP Z28?) vs anything made in the past, performance wise. Isn't that why we want late model performace (engines & trans combos, brakes, etc.)?

1st gens still look better. :thumbsup:

I dont see a full seperation of the different gens helping much. Sure, there are some very specific questions depending on gens.

But, for example, if someone asks about a carb or timing issue, suspension question, or wanting paint/body help, it really doesnt matter what gen car the question pertains to. On most stuff like that, it doesnt matter if its a 67 or a 77. A lot of instances will lead to the same help and information, regardless of the year the car is.

I would think that if someone had a problem that would cross into any generation, it may get lost if put into a specific generation area of the site. Therefore, there would be a definite possibility that someone that could help or add to the discussion would never even be exposed to it, because they dont enter that area just because its for a gen that they dont have or arent interested in. So I would say keep those divisions (eng, brake/susp, body, etc.) the way they are.

I think it would be a good idea to add a computer/fuel injected car (3rd and 4th gen) area, but doesnt really need to go much beyond that. Most of the principles are the same for 1st and 2nd gen cars. If it ever gets too specific, non 1st gen, we point them to another site that would help. But if its specific for 1st gens (tags, #s, year specific info), this has been, is, and will be the only place.

Just remember, we're all here for the same reason: to gain and share knowledge. Lets try not to divide ourselves too much.

dave

The arguement has little to do with what car is faster (how did we get here?,..BTW the 69 ZL-1 with slicks would smoke most anything today...and I'd wager (with slicks) it'd beat the Z-06...good race though,..but the ZL-1 costs $7500 new,..how much for a Z-06?...but I digress).

No, the question is, should we separate the gens, to make this site easier and quicker (I believe) to navigate.

How about this as an example,..let's say somebody starts a thread that's titled "fuel delivery problem" in the trouble-shooting section. How many of us have experience with all of the half dozen methods used from (67 to 02) of getting fuel to the cylinder?...and would respond?..not many,..therefore, most of us don't even open the thread and somebody's problem goes without needed advice.

What if another group of folks decided to use this same web-page format (also used by corvetteforum.com and chevelles.com and I'm sure others) to start a first-gen only site?...would be like the "Rick's Generation" of first-gen chat boards. I contend this site would lose it's best expertise.

Again,..only a quarter of a million first gens are still around...maybe a few more. There were 3-4 million post 69 Camaros built. I'm sure the restoration and modifiction industry for the 2-4 gens will grow at a pace that will eclipse the original Camaro,..simple math.

The resto-parts houese are already starting to offer catalogues to meet the needs of the 2-4 genners. More power to them,..they'll make millions and the 2-4 folks will have a place to shop. 10 years ago, this was not the case.

Again, if it's decided to please all, separate the gens,..doesn't mean one can't crossover. Visit the corvetteforum.com site to see how easy and quick the site is to use.

An old man's opinion,..again.

ooh heck us split us up and seperate us, there is no way i want to be in a forum where we are mixed up..........

meh...for those of us that just click "new posts", it doesn't matter what forum the threads are in. I read them all anyway.

What Ram Air Dave said...........The thing is people here have modern power in some of their first gens and they are selling parts to put carbs on 4th gens now. I see that like this site, a mixture of the old and the new and the new and the old. We know where it started and it's bound to seperate some but I enjoy reading posts that grab my attention even though I may have no idea what the problem is or I just want to do some reading about a 4th gen issue. I am a certifed car nut and like GM products more than others (older stuff maily). I don't want my reading enjoymnet broken up. It's kind of like reading a magazine. I go though and see what instrest me first, then go back through again and read stuff because it has to do with cars and hot rodding etc.

I get the best of everything I could wish for ina magazine here. I get to read about Camaros, all types of Camaros when ever I want. Now if you don't think they built a Camaro after 1970 and hate them that's fine, you can find more reading plessure and more resons to fill your hatred and fuel your argument by having the information at your finger tips. In a way if it's all slit up we are sensoring ourselves from information or data we might not normally see. In this formatt it's just out there for the taking and I like it that way. You don't have to click on the post if you don't want to, it's not like they are pop up ads or something. ;)

Joe

Another idea is just to put on the title pages that we are mainly "a first generation" site. Leave everything else as is. When you enter the site, it just says Camaro. We are not excluding anyone, just let them know there may be other places to go !

Pole results are almost the same....im always the type of person to say lets make it "Peoples Choice" it would be great to have both..if it was possible. It would be nice for someone to come up with both sites or sides some how...sounds like everyone wants both......hopefully know one will leave, but realize its time for change...or may be not to change anything....it really is hard to keep everyone happy. :D :sad: Chris

I know I am glad I don't have to have the job of keeping everyone happy here Chris. I have to do that everyday at work and my areas only have 15 people out of 110 on the site! I have been told, that I have the most difficult ones though!

Joe

I may be a little thick, but why would we want to have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Gen people coming to a 1st Gen site and asking questions about thier specific generation Camaro?

With www.nastyz28.com (http://www.nastyz28.com) catering to the 2nd Gens and www.thirdgen.org (http://www.thridgen.org) catering to the 3rd Gens, and www.ls1.com (http://www.ls1.com) catering to the 4th Gens why should we be a catch all for all the Gens?

I am NOT trying to discriminate against any Camaro owner. Hell, I have accounts on all four gen websites and would post a third gen question on a third gen website. I just don't understand the logic as to why www.camaros.net (http://www.camaros.net) should cater to all the gens.

I do like the idea of somwhere on the home page stating this site is dedicated to 1st Gens, everyone is welcome, but here are other resources dedicated to your specific year model Camaro.

Just my .02, which these days isn't much but I keep on plugging away.

I agree with you pretty much CFunK.

For the non 1st gen specific ("specific" being emphasized) questions, theres other sites (that you mentioned). And I also like the idea for the title mentioning that this is a predominantely 1st gen site.

I just dont think we should shun or turn away camaro owners of other gens, which I would think that disallowing other gen owners would lead to. I think we have a pretty good-natured, down-to-earth group on this site, willing to help others. I dont think we need to make ourselves seem "better" than the other gen owners, and that we have no room for them. That gets into "corvette guy" territory. Now dont get me wrong, that doesnt include all corvette owners whatsoever, but I think we all know the type of "vette" guy im referring to. Basically, a "superiority complex" is what I'm referring to. Most of the same principles for mech and resto works for the 1st and 2nd gens. The 3rd and 4th get into computer and fuel injection, which some/many of us are not familiar with. So maybe we can have a seperate section for those cars.

Think Ive posted on this subject enough and have let my opinion be known. I have no problem with the way the site is. We can pick and choose the threads we want to read or respond to. I dont see how its so hard to pass over threads that I cant contribute to or get useful (to me) info from.

Last recap: If its first gen info you need, this is the site. If its general camaro info you need, we can help you on that also. If its gen specific, try the other sites or we can point you in the direction of them.

To be honest, I hate to see this site have this kind of turmoil/argument/disagreement on something like this. Ive seen this kind of stuff destroy other sites, and we certainly dont need that to happen.

dave

Oh heck, here I go again...

I do pretty much agree with Chris and Dave in that, if we are a FirstGen site, maybe it should at least say so on the door. It never really has.

And no, of course we would never shun or turn away any other car guy.

And the way the forums are arranged now is pretty suitable for anyone who might wander in here with a question, no matter what kind of car they have.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, nobody outside of the moderators had any idea of what was being considered to solve mixed gen questions. The other post briefly touched on a valid issue about questions being mixed in with various gen topics.

Joe started this poll without knowing what the concept was even about and I must admit, it sure is frustrating answering all the emailed questions when nothing has changed.
*sigh*

I suggest we stake Joe to a fire ant hill.

:)

Sorry Al :beers:

I did not mean to get you e-mailed out the waazzo about something that in my eyes is so minor. I just wanted to see what people thought. The one thing that rings through all these post is everyone loves this site. I did not nor an I implying a direction to take or to change anything. The last thing I want is more work for Al and the group when they already have loads of time invested in this place and it costs me nothing to be here.

I will add that please don't e-mail him with questions. He will take this place where he wants and what ever direction he goes with it I know it will be the place on the web to come to no matter what year Camaro you have or don't have. :beers:

If this thread is causing headaches Al lock it down and delete it.

Joe

If this thread is causing headaches Al lock it down and delete it.


Ditto... not to speak for Al, but I'm sure he welcomes everyone's opinions and is perfectly capable of reading them here like the rest of us!

True. The new Z06 Vette is a monster-fastest vette ever. And I won't even begin to compare the best 4th gen cars (maybe a 2000-02 SLP Z28?) vs anything made in the past, performance wise. Isn't that why we want late model performace (engines & trans combos, brakes, etc.)?

1st gens still look better. :thumbsup:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/mullet1062476509.jpg
I say leave it alone. otherwise the next thing you know these four knuckleheads will be looking for air time on TC :)

I have been on this site for years and I liked it a lot more when there was less talk about who should post on here. This segregation talk is starting to get to me. How many young kids do you see walking around with 20 grand in their pocket to buy a first gen Camaro.
If it says Camaro on it then it's a Camaro DAMMIT. Anyone who wants to post here should feel free to. This kind of discussion makes me want to get rid of my 69. I'm gonna trade up to a 4th Gen SS anyways.
I don't get beat up on Team Chevelle cause I'm a Camaro guy. I have alot of friends over there. Grow up guys, you're giving first gen owners a bad name.

I think I speak for most here. Lets end this discussion/debate now.

We dont need this on this site. If the mods/adms do decide to change it some (or not at all), I have confidence that they'll do whats best. Theyve always kept it in the right direction, and I dont see any reason that they'll do anything otherwise in the future. We're a good group and are in good hands with the guys that run this site for us.

dave

Big phel69,

The discussion has little to do with who can post or who can afford a first gen. It's merely a suggestion to make this site quicker and easier to use, and based on the poll so far, the suggestion to separate the gens has majority support from it's users. Separating the gens doesn't prevent anybody from crossing over and participating in any of the four sub-sites.

I agree, the Chevelle site is great as well, but I believe the last Chevelle was made in 1973, and the first in 1964 (10 years). Malibu's and El Caminos were carried on until the mid-80's,..then the Malibu re-appeared in 1997 and I believe they're still made today,..though you don't see the owners of the newer Malibus post on chevelles.com. Because of this (fewer model years), their site is much more homogenous than what we have here.

Look at the corvette site (corvetteforum.com). First thing you're asked at the top right side of the main page is which generation's site do you want to visit, C1, C2,...C6. If they didn't have this, think what the discussion pages would look like,..and think how many posts you'd have to read to find answers to your problems,..needle in the haystack kind of thing. If I were the owner of three vettes from three different gens, I'd still prefer the separation.

We don't mean to give anyone a bad name, and good luck with the trade of your 69 for a 4th Gen.

Big phel69,

The discussion has little to do with who can post or who can afford a first gen. It's merely a suggestion to make this site quicker and easier to use, and based on the poll so far, the suggestion to separate the gens has majority support from it's users. Separating the gens doesn't prevent anybody from crossing over and participating in any of the four sub-sites.


Straight-line-69,
If you read all the replies versus what the initial post was you'll better understand my reply. There is considearble talk of 1st gen only preference.
The header of the post is "First Gen only site etc."
Different years are becoming more popular due to pricing and availability.
I don't really care if the moderators choose to split it up by generations but there is plenty of first gen. only sentiment here. It just starts to look like we are biased against the other years and I don't think that is the true sentiment here. If I owned a different gen Camaro I would be bugged by this type of talk. No big deal to me who posts where, everyone should just try to help each other.That's what this site has always been about.

Big Bob,

Duly noted,..in my perfect world, this would be more of a first gen site as it was 5-6 years ago. In my opinion the first gen expertise was more concentrated then. But since, I feel, the first gen info is becoming diluted, more difficult to find, and marginalized. It's been previously noted that the 2nd gens, 3rd and 4th, all have separate sites that are exclusive to each generation. As far as I know, there's not a similar site that is exclusive to first-gens...yet.

But in my compromise world, it's been suggested to split up the gens. Other than the programming labor to map four different sub-sites, I don't know why it would be opposed, regardless of the year model each of us owns,..i.e, someone searching a 3rd gen problem would only have to wade through the 3rd gen threads which will reduce the time spent obtaining answers. Other than maybe lug nuts, I don't believe there's a single part from a first gen that is used on a 3rd or 4th gen and the technology is so different that if a first gen had a computer in 69 that functions like the 4th gen computer modules, it would have had to tow it on a trailor.

Obviously, I believe separating the gens would be benefit to us all.

4th gens use metric lugnuts.....

Leave to jim to come up with something funny!! Good one Jim !!! :clonk:

thanks Joe, I do my best!!!

a camaro is a camaro, most people have siblings(older or younger )so only you can decide if you are going to be a big brother(or sister) to help the sec. gen+beyond

I'd have to say that my passion has always been First Gen Camaros and don't really have a whole lot of interest in anything beyond. It's not that I'm snobbish... I just like what I like. I'd prefer it if the sites were broken up into their particular generations because 3rd or 4th generation postings would not have a tremendous benefit to my interests. Why are we considered snobs if First Gens are our interest? Before I ever owned a First Gen, i would look information on First Gens. because that was my interest and was most relevent to my interests. Don't get me wrong, I like all kinds of cars, but first gens. are my passion. I don't think I should, or anyone, should feel guilty for keeping that as their main focus.

One last note: I think things are fine the way they are.... I don't think we have members that snub a "Younger" member or someone that has a 3rd or 4th gen. I think we all do a pretty good job or "putting up with" EVERYONE. You all tolerate me... and that speaks VOLUMES!!! :-)

Can't we all just get alone?!?!?! :-)

This is a very interesting discussion.

I actually took the time to read all of the posts. It would be nice to see a 1st gen only site, but I have always viewd this particular site as a "Camaro Site", nothing else.

I can understand how generation specific questions may get mixed up answers, or how some people are biased for or against any model year of car.

I don't post a whole lot here, but I plug this site to death to everyone I meet that owns a camaro of any year.

I think everyone on this site is doing a great job of preseving the Chevrolet Camaro spirit. If the moderators see a need to add generation specific catagories, then more power to them. I just don't know where they would find the time.

Speaking of time, we cannot allow Al to do any more than he already is, I coulnd't stand the though of a Kokanee shortage here in Alberta :D :D

I vote to keep it the way it is.

Pretty interesting though to see a 50/50 split on the voting.

Paul :beers: :beers:

ya know... while i've voiced an opinion or two.... when you get down to brass tacks, with the new software, all I ever hit is "new posts" which shows me only what I haven't seen... I read new responses to posts I've been reading, then newposts that look intertesting, then stuff I haven't read yet....reply if I have something to add, then see if anyone's in chat... then check back in an hour or so and start over...

If other forums for other topics were added, I'd never know. It might be helpful in future searches tho.

what the heck, cars r cars, they all fun.