Look at E-bay #4576875298...X33-D80...with a Van Nuys vin...and look at the shinny new cowl tag...cant make the tag out, but has to be a Norwood tag if X codes are present...No X codes at Van Nuys, guess now you can put Norwood tags on Van Nuys cars and pass it off ???. Guess no one will know. :sad:

as a car with an X code it would have to be a Norwood car and with D80 on the trim tag it would have to be built in May or later...

There has to be more Z/28s on the road now, than made in 69'! Guess all you can do is keep an eye out. Buyer beware.

Actually I don't think there are over 20,000 69 Z/28's out there , even with the fakes...not talkin about clones or some guy puttin Z emblems on his car.....

Your prob right...I was taking into account clones and emblem adders...seems that just about all camaros being sold on e-bay are Z/28s. Guess they bring all the $$$.

Actually I don't think there are over 20,000 69 Z/28's out there , even with the fakes...not talkin about clones or some guy puttin Z emblems on his car.....



actually I bet they are way more than 50.000 1969 Z/28's out there LOL!!!

I emailed the guy..I recogonize his email address so I know I have talked to him before..I pointed out the LA VIN.here is his response.
I think this is the guy who had the 69 Z that was silver with red stripes and claimed that it was all original and that he had a build sheet...that car was on this site for sale in June I think...but not sure.I can't find the listing anymore

"Sorry, I posted the vin incorrectly and have erased the ad to change the info.This is a real car and I guarentee that.Thanks for bringing that to my attention as I have 7 69's at the moment and had 3 titles in front of me while writing the ad.Thanks again,Rob"

The car show I went to over the weekend had six 69 Z28's.....all six were clones. Some better than others of course.

I do have a silver Z with red stripes and a build sheet for your info that you will probably see at Barrett this winter.Also have the rs z on ebay and as I to you I made a mistake copying the vin.I just sold an LA car and had 3 titles in front of me at the time.I can send pics of the vin and the cowl tag to anyone interested.I also found 2 other real Z/28'S cortez silver with red stripes and documentation 1 of which is in Canada.Before you start bashing remember something ALL MY CARS COME WITH A MONEY BACK GUARENREE IN WRITING.You guys need to research a little before you blast people,there are some ligit people in the buisness and I look at a couple hundred cars a month and I see a ton of re stamps and bogus cowl tags.I just went to court with a guy over a bogus cowl tag and won my case,so believe me I am very careful these days.I also bought an rs/ss burgandy with gold hockey stripes some of you said could not be correct,but guess what I have pics of the car when new with the original owners as well as protect-o-plate,invoice designating gold stripes etc.Just when you think you know it all sometimes you dont ! Good day

Welcome to the site. (Rob?)

Hope you understand the skepticism on this board. We have uncovered quite a few outright frauds on ebay, and admittedly there is probably a bias towards disbelieving most of what is on ebay. Because of that we are sometimes a bit quick to "bash", as you say. In your case, it is easy to see how you could have inadvertently posted the wrong VIN. I assume you will be relisting the car?

Having said that, there are guys on this board that are unbeleivably knowledgeable on the first gen Camaros. Some have done lots of research, and some were even part of the Generals "army" back in 69. From time to time, when a really obscure question comes up, I have even been able to get some input from Jerry McNiesh, whom I call Mr. Definitive.

You could do the hobby in general, and this board as well as the CRG in particular, a serious service by sharing some of the documentation you have discovered. It can only help to submit such documetation to scrutiny. If for any reason you do not want to publish that information here, at least send a private message to Kurt S (Kurt Sonen of the CRG) and maybe you can then make arrangements to get that info to him so he can make a record at CRG.

Were the red strip Camaro's COPO cars, or - - paint code cars? Were the stripes simply deleted by the factory and added at the dealer? I am guessing that at least the one you speak of with a build sheet had factory applied red stripes, otherwise it wouldn't show on a build sheet. I am sure all on this board would like to see that build sheet.

Please don't be so put off with the initial skepticism that you fail to advance more knowledge in support of a great hobby. If you are selling the silver/red Z at Barrett, it can only help to create some interest by sharing more infor here.

Thanks,

Lynn Bilodeau

Superstock,

I don't think anyone was bashing you personally. You kind of set yourself up for being critiqued by advertising an X coded car with a LOS vin. Sure it was an honest mistake but you should not be surprised by the red flags going up. I would be quite interested in seeing a picture of the cowl tag from the ebay car, if you wouldn't mind emailing it to me.

scott.taylor@mci.com

wow that was classy


:clonk:

I was under the impression there were near 70,000 z-28's produced between 68 and 69, with only 607 being produced in 1967.

I'm sure there are a number cars out there that havent seen the light of day in 30 years, but as my fellow board members have said, there are quite a few people on ebay ready willing and able to pass off cars as z-28's for a quick buck.

wow that was classy


:clonk:

I was under the impression there were near 70,000 z-28's produced between 68 and 69, with only 607 being produced in 1967.

I'm sure there are a number cars out there that havent seen the light of day in 30 years, but as my fellow board members have said, there are quite a few people on ebay ready willing and able to pass off cars as z-28's for a quick buck.


Rough figures for each year:

67 - 602

68 - 7199

69 - 19,000 plus

Lynn

looks like the seller ended the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4576875298&ru=http://motors.search.ebay.com:80/4576875298_W0QQa10239ZQ2d24QQa39ZQ2d24QQa41ZQ2d24Q QalistZa39Q2ca41Q2ca38v1yQ2ca38v2yQ2ca10239Q2ca380 1Q2ca85Q2ca10246Q2ca33512Q2ca10241QQfclZ3QQfrppZ50 QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQgcsZ13QQpf_queryZ4576875298QQpfi dZ2473QQsacatZQ2d100QQsadisZ500QQsofindtypeZ22QQso focusZpfQQfviZ1

:clonk:

I was under the impression there were near 70,000 z-28's produced between 68 and 69...

Lately so am I ... :clonk:


Of course the auction is now suspended and he will just relie-st... I meant re-list - the vehicle later with a 'new' story... :rolleyes:

Just when you think you know it all sometimes you dont ! Good day

Welcome, nice first post. I don't know why you bothered to ask our opinion on these past paint issues when it seems you already knew all the answers. So you found a couple special paint cars...big woop. Your auction was public and our response was not malicious. It seems we get a post with attitude from classic dealers on a regular basis. Our main concern is for the hobbyist/individual that requests information to make informed buying decisions and knowledgeable restoration choices. I would hope that you and other honest dealers would appreciate that we offer this service to those who request it free of charge. It is up to you as a proffesional to handle any objections your prospect might have. If we were'nt here to share our collective knowledge to the best of our ability I think a significant disparity would be seen between the profit margins of dealers with legit inventory and those competing against them using questionable techniques. By in large we help put educated buyers in front of you and well restored inventory on your lot. Yes we do make errors, but the positive benefits of sharing what we know and discover with others is worthwhile to us. Good luck at the B.J. auction this winter....nothing but legit cars there.

I always wonder why a car with less than 60K miles, that has always been garaged, needs the engine rebuilt and all those other new parts.....

superstock3,
I'd be interested in any documentation on a silver Z with red stripes. We have data on over 10,000 cars, none with that combo. BTW, it is very hard to document original stripe color, always interested in the topic.
You can send it to me at KurtS2@peoplepc.com. Thanks!

Rough figures for each year:

67 - 602

68 - 7199

69 - 19,000 plus

Lynn

actual numbers are correct above except for 69

69 = 20,302 (nice number eh?)

Excuse me? Was I bashing someone ?.......I just let everyone know you posted an incorrect VIN ....I also said I thought you were the guy who said/claimed you had an original Cortez Silver car with Red stripes.....that is all.And by your response I guess you are that same person.
When I first emailed you about this car in June ( the silver with red stripe Z)and asked about the stripes you bit my head off with this response..

"I dont care what Jerry ( he is refereing to Jerry MacNeish who I asked about this collor combo)or whoever says I have the original build sheet as well as pictures of the car in 1969 and thats how it was ordered remember were talking West Virginia.Thanks"

Never understood what W. Virginia had to do with it but here was my response ....

"I think you misinterpret the tone of my email... I was not being accusatory or doubtful of your car..."

You then followed up with a calmer email and indicated that you had this car fully documented with pictures back to 1969 with the original owner.
I offered to buy your Cortez Silver and Red striped car if you could verify the stripes as being original and asked that you send the pics of the documentation . I never heard back from you.
When I sent a follow up emailed about it you emailed me the following on 07/08/05.
"I have a deposit on the car from a local dealer.Thanks for your interest,Robbie"

So I guess in the end you decided to keep the car and are now going to take it to Barrett Jackson..that's good... My dream car is a 69 Z in Cortez Silver with Red Stripes , but never thought it possible ...now it sounds like maybe I can realize that dream

I won't apologize for my previous post.. you jumped to conclusions..my intent was not to bash you but to state a fact....

I hope you enjoy the site .There are a bunch of wonderful people on these forums..I also hope you chose to share/post the documentation on these rare cars. it is very exciting news.

I think anyone considering buying a Camaro should consult you guys,your wealth of information is amazing.The reason the Z/28 RS is not back on Ebay is because I sold it today thank you.My silver Z is really not for sale I was only testing the water but a local dealer made me an offer and I was going to make a deal with him but decided to keep it and possibly go to Barrett with that and several others I have.And Chevy Thunder I just dont give out info on high dollar cars to anyone,there is enough fabrication going on these days.REAL BUYERS COME LOOK NOT COLLECT PICTURES AND BUILD SHEETS.And find another dealer or private party that gives a money back guarentee on every car he or she sells,I DO and you guys especially should respect that.Thanks for all the attention and good luck to all,this is a great site with alot of info and has helped me more than once.Cheers!

I have to say that you fellows are a class act....

Superstock3, I can understand that it was a simple mistake and you had multiple Titles in front of you, therefore resulting in an incorrect posting of information..... I would have left it at that. No harm, no foul. I think if the tables were turned, you would have been skeptical of anyone trying to sell an "Original" Z/28 if you had spotted this discrepency also. Nobody within this forum would like to see anyone cheated out of their money or dream.

I commend you on pulling your ebay posting and I have to say that was very honorable and I applaud you.

BUT, IMHO, I must criticize the claims that you have made on your other vehicles and find that they are meaningless and pointless and SHOULD fall under scrutiny by others in the car community, unless proven otherwise. If the claims that you make are true, then providing documentation could only help your cause, whether in this forum or through a Barrett Jackson Auction. Obviously you are in the market of selling these vehicles and therefore rely upon an educated buyer to truly appreciate the rarity of such a vehicle.

Please pardon me if this sounds rude and with all sincerity and respect, I am not trying to bash you... but "Put Up, Shut Up or Shut Us Down"

Rob,
In your email to me in July you offered all the information but never sent it..I think in your previous post on this site ..on this thread you offered the VIN and Cowl Tag

"I can send pics of the vin and the cowl tag to anyone interested."

I guess I am getting old and am easily confused.......

Regardless , if you have an issue with me use my email address.... and I apologize to any of my fellow TC members if I have caused this thread to go down hill.

Van, it was a good thing you didn't go out to look at his car since he just admitted it was not for sale and that he was "only testing the waters"...

real car dealers sell cars, not pull peoples chains

that is something I'd do to you, since your old and we can take advantage of you...:p

Rob,
In your email to me in July you offered all the information but never sent it..I think in your previous post on this site ..on this thread you offered the VIN and Cowl Tag

"I can send pics of the vin and the cowl tag to anyone interested."

I guess I am getting old and am easily confused.......

Regardless , if you have an issue with me use my email address.... and I apologize to any of my fellow TC members if I have caused this thread to go down hill.

Kurt- You're wasting your energy typing. We've been around long enough that we know when someone is talking smack about their documentation. If "I" were in the business of selling classic cars, and someone wanted documentation for one of my cars, I would be happy to send anything I had to a potential buyer. If I were to drive 500-1500 miles to look at a car with fake docs, I would have to take some hide from some a$$.
Case in point, my boss is looking for a '69 RS/SS 396 car. I have called on a few, and I have not found one that was real enough with documentation, and matching numbers, that was worth looking at. I received the most fake build sheet in history from a place in Oklahoma. This is what the average buyer is up against. Junk, clones, and fake paperwork.
So, superstock, GET OVER IT. Cough up some docs, or go play with some overseas buyers that are just waiting to buy your cars.

[QUOTE=Dave Birdwell] Case in point, my boss is looking for a '69 RS/SS 396 car. I have called on a few, and I have not found one that was real enough with documentation, and matching numbers, that was worth looking at. I received the most fake build sheet in history from a place in Oklahoma. /QUOTE]

Dave:

I am in Oklahoma (OKC). Who provided the "most fake build sheet in history"?

Did you save a copy? I would really like for you to post the name, so I can steer other clear if the need arises. Don't worry about being sued for slander. I can assure you that if you are speaking the truth, and if you can prove it, truth is a complete defense. Besides if you still have the fake build sheet, and there is no doubt it is fake, and if the blowhard that gave you fake docs sues you, I will represent you for free!!!!

if you don't feel comfortable doing so, can you email me a pic via private message?

Thanks.

Lynn

Rob,

I guess I am getting old and am easily confused.......


Puhleeze!

No disrespect, but I have corns older than you!

Name withheld to protect the elderly.

I think anyone considering buying a Camaro should consult you guys,your wealth of information is amazing.The reason the Z/28 RS is not back on Ebay is because I sold it today thank you.My silver Z is really not for sale I was only testing the water but a local dealer made me an offer and I was going to make a deal with him but decided to keep it and possibly go to Barrett with that and several others I have.And Chevy Thunder I just dont give out info on high dollar cars to anyone,there is enough fabrication going on these days.REAL BUYERS COME LOOK NOT COLLECT PICTURES AND BUILD SHEETS.And find another dealer or private party that gives a money back guarentee on every car he or she sells,I DO and you guys especially should respect that.Thanks for all the attention and good luck to all,this is a great site with alot of info and has helped me more than once.Cheers!

No one is disrespecting the money back guarantee. What we would all like to see is the documentation. You can supply it to Kurt, especially the build sheet that documents the Silver / Red Z. If you sell it at BJ, they are certainly going to post pics in the pre auction publicity. If I am not mistaken, pictures can be posted so that they cannot be copied or saved. Kind of like a PDF format for pictures. I send legal docs all the time in PDF format so that they cannot be copied or tampered with.

Please don't hold back the hobby. Advance it. New things are being discovered all the time.

Lynn

I remember a while back that a guy came to the site for 1 post to defend his car that was for sale. The last we heard of him unless he changed his member name. I doubt superstock3 will be back. Probably had to end the listing to get a new tag made.:p

Feeling guilty? Here is an idea. If it was legit, why wasn't the vin just changed on the auction? Sold it?

Feeling guilty? Here is an idea. If it was legit, why wasn't the vin just changed on the auction? Sold it?:thumbsup:


It is interesting that he was either monitoring this site for negative discussion on his sale or a stealth member using another name.

WOW...I started this thread and had no idea it would get like this...Just so everyone knows I was only making an observation and not out to burn anyone. As stated, I just wanted to let you all know what this car was representing, nothing more. I'm not an expert, but Iv'e had early camaros since 1977. It (the los vin with X codes just ain't right, honest mistake on sellers part?...could be, but the tag looks too "pretty" (shinny) to me not to raise a flag. Shinny tag on 36yr old car is a flag for me anyway, with all I see on E-Bay, camaro wise, Fig you guys should know. Hope no one is mad at me starting this thread Thanks, Dave.

Personally I think you provided a valuable service. Anytime we see a "questionable" car or representation of a car for sale, we ought to post so that others can make informed decisions about the validity of the representation.

Don't know why anyone would get mad.

On another note, have to say I am really dissappointed with Rob, Robbie, or whatever his name is (superstock3). He jumps all over guys for questioning his car, claiming it was an honest mistake, which it may very well have been. Then states he has a build sheet for a silver Z with red stripes. Still would like to see the proof. Evidently it is not forthcoming, and no explanation for why. If you look at my previous posts, you certainly can't say I rushed to judgment on this. In fact, I think I made every effort to insure reason prevailed. If he won't produce the evidence he has, what are we supposed to think?

Rob, you may be a great guy. You may be the most honest car dealer out there. But if you are going to claim evidence of factory builds that NO ONE on this board has ever heard of or seen, you really should produce it.

Early pictures of the car are, at best, weak evidence, certainly not proof. A car ordered "stripe delete" could have had red stripes done literally on day 2 either by the dealer or any body shop, so that proves nothing. Where is this mysterious build sheet? Nothing personal against you, just asking you to back up your bold statement.

Just my 02 cents.

Lynn