I talked to Detroit Speed & Engineering today and they said they are coming out with a new subframe. I want to get a new one but I was wondering what clip you guys like or do you think I should wait till spring when they come out with thiers. They say it will be supreme.

Everything I have seen from DSE has been first class.
That said, most likely their price may be pretty high, if price isn't a problem, I'd wait for the DSE sub.
David

DSE stuff is always high quality items and should be awesome. They are over a year behind on this project now because of their move. When I talked to Fred about a year ago, I was told that it will be completely new and nothing have now will interchange and will use all proprietary parts. That may have changed as I have not inquired about it since. It also won't be the cheapest sub available either.

Now I ask what are your reasons for going with a new sub? Looks? handling? don't have one now? What is your buget? A new sub could run up to $6K-$8K fully built or more. There are several good ones on the market now but none have really been tested. Wayne Due's is a good sub and you won't find any nicer welding anywhere else. He has just started making C5 based subs. 21st Century Street Machines has a C5 based sub as well and the company has a lot of people with racing backgrounds so I am sure it should be a good sub as well. Alston's and Martz subs are MII based and I would not consider them for handling corners IMO. Then there is the stock sub. Gulstrand mod, DSE coil over setup which works well, and the new ATS spindles as well. Talking about overload of choices!

Mike

The stock sub isn't bad with a fiew upgrades, lots cheaper too.

What upgrades David?
I know of the Penske upper control arm relocation detailed in the Camaro Untold Secrets book, but what else?

I am a tight-as, er, eh, "frugal" is all, but I would go with a Second Gen's S/F to improve our poor low front roll center!

You get front steer, a better roll height, can make the 13" disc brake conversion so there you go.

AND if I was wanting wider tires, I would narrow the legs and fish-plate them for strength to obtain more turn clearance too before I ever tried to stick it under my car.

AND there is a custom S/F out there for something like $10,000/each that allow's 315 and even 335 front tires!! Pricey to say the least!!

pdq67

I am a tight-as, er, eh, "frugal" is all, but I would go with a Second Gen's S/F to improve our poor low front roll center!

You get front steer, a better roll height, can make the 13" disc brake conversion so there you go.

AND if I was wanting wider tires, I would narrow the legs and fish-plate them for strength to obtain more turn clearance too before I ever tried to stick it under my car.

AND there is a custom S/F out there for something like $10,000/each that allow's 315 and even 335 front tires!! Pricey to say the least!!

pdq67
A member on PT.com has put a second gen sub on a first gen and said for the amount of work to get it installed, he would rather buy an aftermarket sub. The gains weren't that much for the work.

Blackoutsteve, besides the gulstrand mod, there is a bunch of aftermarket a arms out but only a handful actually improve handling. DSE, Global West, SC&C, Pole Position to name a few. Also ATS has a new spindle that improves front end geometry and will work with all aftermarket parts currently available. It uses a C5/C6 hub bearing so you can bolt up C5 brakes with no modifications.

Mike

Mike,

Sure, putting a Second Gen. S/F under our First Gen. cars is a lot of work for not ALL that much improvement! BUT remember, every little bit helps too...

BUT I do figure that I have more time than money so it looks good to me IF I had the stuff and the place to do this mod myself sorta deal.

Now if you want it to handle then please go over to Larry's GREAT Pro-Touring site and chat with the harder-core guys then generally hang out here..

And if you do, please say hello to Larry for me.

Here is the link;

http://www.pro-touring.com/

pdq67

PS., and if you really want to get hardcore, go over to the c-c site here....

http://www.corner-carvers.com/

BUT be forewarned, they don't take lightly to newbie questions so read the warnings AND do your homework by searching everything before asking any questions!!! OR they might get nasty real quick..............

I don't even bother to vist..

Mike,

Sure, putting a Second Gen. S/F under our First Gen. cars is a lot of work for not ALL that much improvement! BUT remember, every little bit helps too...

BUT I do figure that I have more time than money so it looks good to me IF I had the stuff and the place to do this mod myself sorta deal.

Now if you want it to handle then please go over to Larry's GREAT Pro-Touring site and chat with the harder-core guys then generally hang out here..

And if you do, please say hello to Larry for me.

Here is the link;

http://www.pro-touring.com/

pdq67

PS., and if you really want to get hardcore, go over to the c-c site here....

http://www.corner-carvers.com/

BUT be forewarned, they don't take lightly to newbie questions so read the warnings AND do your homework by searching everything before asking any questions!!! OR they might get nasty real quick..............

I don't even bother to vist..
I live over at PT.com already and lurk at CC.com. Both places are excellent for technical infomation. If you can think it, use the search button and you will probably find it with hard tech to back it up. This site is excellent as well for anything Camaro!

I am not knocking the 2nd gen sub idea, just relaying info I have read. Some people got time, some got money. I don't have much of either. I did however consult a suspension expert for my car. Since I can fabricate, I am building a new subframe for my car. Including paying for someone to design my suspension using the right combo of off the shelf parts, I will have at or less than $1K in my entire suspension which includes stock C5 brakes.

Mike

ya know, as far as full new sub frames go, unless you have the coin to drop 5-10G's on a martz/wayne due/campbell auto restoration frame, the stock frame with coil overs, tubular a arms, and some 275's up front is about as much as you could legally enjoy on the street... at least in my humble opinion... but I am 20 years old and money is tight :P

That is what I am trying to say!

Tight money so upgrade using a reworked Second Gen. S/F is all.

And I figure I probably have $1,000 in my car's suspension;

98 percent Full poly;
Front and rear Sway-bars;
Homemade slappers;
13" and 11.75" "pdqCBB" setup;
S/F/C's;
H-D front and rear springs and KYB Gas-Adjust shocks;

And for about $1,100, new 225 and 255/45-17" tires and Bullitt wheels to complete it.

pdq67

PS., before I would spend $10,000 on a custom, 315/335 front tire S/F, I would go the route of Big Red AND do it myself by buying the needed tools, welders and such AND have a heck of a car!!

And I can make a cold chisel so I figure I should be able to make a Big Red Clone with enough info....

pdq67 can you elaborate on exactly what it takes to do this second gen conversioin subframe? How do you do it?

Here is how I would do it.

Take both S/F's and sit them side-by-side and match the Second Gen. to the First Gen.

And I would center fore and aft off the spindle spuds with them both side-by-side to locate the mounts the correct distance so the tires would sit correctly in the wheel wells under my car.

AND I would also make sure the trans cross member is in the right place for my driveshaft to hook up right to locate the motor correctly.

ON second thought, I would try to move my motor back as much as I could to create a better CG for better handling!! Even if I had to shorten my driveshaft AND make a Z-bar pivot-ball bracket at the side of the block to do it....

Moving the motor back, say 2 to 3 inches, (right up next to the firewall by indenting it for a distributor to still fit), plus installing the battery in the trunk SHOULD really improve the cars CG for a much better fore/aft weight balance!!

Just watch the damper to the front S/F crossmember lip and sway-bar clearance up front is all.. Might have to remove some metal and re-strengthen there for damper clearance??

AND you might as well lower the motor both at the front mounts and the tranny mount as much as the pan and S/F crossmember will allow by flattening your pan in the front!! Just watch the rearend's pinion angle AND make sure the pan doesn't hang down too much and catch speed bumps is all

Heck, one of the guys used a cheap, NEW, metal wheelbarrow tub and cut and fitted both the F/W and it to create an insert for his motor's set-back that looked great after it was finished IF you wanted to go this far??

Then I would have to figure out how to extend the steering shaft to the front located steering gearbox and that should pretty much do it unless I wanted to narrow it's legs towards the outside say 2" per side and then add some heavy steel plates to re-strengthen it so I could run wider front tires.

But I personally like about a 225 to 235 tire under my front so I wouldn't need to do this...

Hope this helps b/c to me, it isn't all that hard to do IF you have the time, space and tools imho..

You know, measure three times AND cut once sorta deal, just like buying wheels and tires..

pdq67

Here is how I would do it.

Take both S/F's and sit them side-by-side and match the Second Gen. to the First Gen.

And I would center fore and aft off the spindle spuds with them both side-by-side to locate the mounts the correct distance so the tires would sit correctly in the wheel wells under my car.

AND I would also make sure the trans cross member is in the right place for my driveshaft to hook up right to locate the motor correctly.

ON second thought, I would try to move my motor back as much as I could to create a better CG for better handling!! Even if I had to shorten my driveshaft AND make a Z-bar pivot-ball bracket at the side of the block to do it....

Moving the motor back, say 2 to 3 inches, (right up next to the firewall by indenting it for a distributor to still fit), plus installing the battery in the trunk SHOULD really improve the cars CG for a much better fore/aft weight balance!!

Just watch the damper to the front S/F crossmember lip and sway-bar clearance up front is all.. Might have to remove some metal and re-strengthen there for damper clearance??

AND you might as well lower the motor both at the front mounts and the tranny mount as much as the pan and S/F crossmember will allow by flattening your pan in the front!! Just watch the rearend's pinion angle AND make sure the pan doesn't hang down too much and catch speed bumps is all

Heck, one of the guys used a cheap, NEW, metal wheelbarrow tub and cut and fitted both the F/W and it to create an insert for his motor's set-back that looked great after it was finished IF you wanted to go this far??

Then I would have to figure out how to extend the steering shaft to the front located steering gearbox and that should pretty much do it unless I wanted to narrow it's legs towards the outside say 2" per side and then add some heavy steel plates to re-strengthen it so I could run wider front tires.

But I personally like about a 225 to 235 tire under my front so I wouldn't need to do this...

Hope this helps b/c to me, it isn't all that hard to do IF you have the time, space and tools imho..

You know, measure three times AND cut once sorta deal, just like buying wheels and tires..

pdq67
If you are going to butcher the entire thing up, why not start from scratch? It would be much easier than trying to make something else fit? You could still use all the second gen attaching parts if you wanted to. What you are suggesting is not as simple as just trying to attach it to a first gen which is hard enough.

I suggest you go to www.pro-touring.com or www.lateral-g.net and search the suspension posts for budget suspension upgrades. "MRQUICK" or Vince of Meanstreets Fabrication is a member over at PT.com and has done this conversion. I would suggest you contact him and find out just how hard it was.

Mike

Hard??? What's hard about what I just said??

Sure, it would take some time and fabricating skills, but hard, I don't think so!!

A couple of BFT's, several big C-Clamps, a smoke-wrench, a 9" angle-grinder, a good wire-welder AND a smooth flat floor to locate everything on so you can copy one to the other AND have at it.

Oh, forgot several jackstands the right height too unless you don't mind working right on the floor...

NOW to me, jigging up a complete new S/F from no more than a homemade blueprint, now that would take more time and skills to me..

AND I am an ME as well as know blacksmithing stuff.

My first homemade, odd-ball, motor transplant was done back about 1965 or maybe '66 when I was a punk kid??

Hard, nah, creating Big Red, now that's hard to me!!

Where's Drag Fabricator, (Brian), at??

pdq67

I think what I am trying to say is what might be easy to you or me that have the skills and tools to do the job, may be impossible or complicated to someone else. Since he has not posted up what his abilities are, I was trying to keep it simple and to the point. Suspensions are not something to experiment with without a little research first. Your life is in it hands.

Mike

Right.

pdq67