Im not an expert on the body broadcast sheet but isnt the vin number missing from this document? Is there something else on this half document that would tie it to this car?

Wondering how the original BB crossmember disappears from an all original car.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-1969-Camaro-SS-396-375hp-L78-Documented_W0QQitemZ4591474614QQcategoryZ6161QQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem

would that not mean that the engine and tranny may not be sitting in the correct location?

For the big $ expected this is at best an amateur resto.

-missing AIR system, wrong exhaust manifolds
-should not have ducted hood, rosewood wheel or trunk mat
-"CZ" alternator has incorrect pulley
-top of cowl incorrectly painted
-wrong posi tag
-far too much "grafitti" but no driveshaft stripes
-many incorrect finishes

In addition to the crossmember shifter appears to be sb

This is the Chassis Broadcast Copy

It is too hard to read that buildsheet with the pics provided. The VIN should be at the top of the buildsheet.

I can see some codes:

Box 269 - UZ BB w/auto
Box 271 - Inlet Rad Hose KA = BB
Box 273 - Outlet Rad Hose TL = BB
Front Springs look like YP code
Shock code is PS

Some of the codes are encouraging for BB.

I agree that it has been over chalked with things the factory didnt do.
No paint dabs. looks like a nice car though.

Rad code is ZD (it's offset).

Bill's list is pretty good. Missed the woodgrain on the dash...... :)
Ugggh on all that writing.

btw, it's 9L508806 for future reference.

My point of saying anything about this car was that this is not a documented car because of the missing Vin number on the buildsheet and there is nothing else on this sheet that ties it to this vehicle.

Also, I noticed the UZ code and now he has a manual trans and the wrong cross member. Wouldnt you consider that the rearend is too late for this car. The car is built 11B and the rear housing is 11/18/68. I thought someone would chime in on this.

I think this Camaro is getting alot of lenancy because of that half buildsheet, and wonder if the owner has gotten a little creative with this Camaro. I really question 2/3 of his drive train. The car is up to $60,000 and I got a bad feeling about the L78 option. Phil

Also the brake line has a compression fitting (line connector), for the brake line that goes over to the passenger side. I know it seems a little picky, but not for a car that had all this work done. Really nice car though, it is a shame to see so much work done and some obvious incorrect items on the restore.

Jonesy - I have a l89 and my broadcast sheet has ZE for the code, why would they be different between a L78 VS L89. Do you know what the ZE would stand for?

The broadcast sheet for the L78 does have the correct deep grove pulley codes. I agree with 69Camarozz396 that the vin should be displayed on the broadcast sheet, and if I was selling this car I would make sure the broadcast sheet and vin of the car would be vissible with ease in my image/post.

Everyone is burned out on the cyber-space authentication job. Too many....not enough information to draw a conclusion (sum of the whole). The knowledge is at your fingertips here and the CRG and SYC through specific information searches. The double edged sword of gathering data and applying it to the current subject market is at our throats! When did that old car in the garage become worth more than the house?

Need the axle code, that's what's relevant.

T-Man: http://www.camaros.org/coolingsystems.shtml

Kurt: I agree that the axle code is needed to make a conclusion. This could be an error because it is listed in the wrong date coding format for a rear-end. I jumped on the date listed by the seller. If the date was correct wouldnt you agree that it would be incorrect for the build date?

I have a friend with an original L78 Camaro that has a 4 core curved neck radiator. The car is a 4-speed and of course, no A/C. Do you have other Camaros in the data base that came equipped like this? I sent you some pics. Phil

Just for my knowledge, can someone tell me why the car should not have a trunk mat?

Thanks

I don't think anyone can tell about the trunk mat that is "for sure". My 68 standard interior Camaro came from the factory with a trunk mat. I hear alot of people say this is not correct but what is and what is'nt, who knows?

I will leave it up to Kurt to tell you if it's real or not. All I said was there was some encouraging things on the buildsheet that point out Big Block.
This car is 332 cars after mine and my rear end is dated 10/16/68, same build 11B.

from my experience the low production high horse cars have dates that are more often not in line with the build of the car. I would be skeptical nowadays of any high dollar car, especially one that is advertised on eBay.

Seller come up with some stories to make a potiential buyer think the car is something more than it really is. All for top dollar at any cost.

Camaro ordering info states a trunk mat was included only with Z87 custom interior. It was not otherwise optional but I'm certain a dealer could have ordered one and added it if requested by a customer.

If they choose to remove it they could then correctly re-position the spare tire. The tires are not correct either. I'm shocked that it doesn't have a CAUTION-FAN sticker.

This car is flashy but has a lot of problems. Perfect for a high-end collector car auction.

I asked the seller for a pic of the engine pad and about the heads. I asked if the trans was original.

His response:

Hello - The transmission is original. Don't have numbers or dates from heads since the valve covers havent been off. Restoration was done prior to purchase of car in 2001. The car is all matching number.
You are more than welcome to come and see the car or send an inspector. George


The non-answer, answer and disclaimer of Restoration done prior to purchase. But states the car is all matching number. I think I watched too much football today because I seen the beer refs throwing their flags all over this one. Chicago Bears are back!!

I'll ask again, If this car had had the big block motor pedestals, and used a small block crossmember, would not the enigne and tranny be incorrectly aligned with the the drive shaft?

Depends on how it was done. They may have re-drilled the crossmember or used the later 1-bolt trans mount.

The factory occasionally used the wrong one. Several Yenko Deuce Novas had bb crossmembers as did a friends' 69 Z/28. We assumed a previous owner used the wrong one and replaced it with a sb piece. When everything was bolted up the Z-bar was crooked and the clutch would not release properly. It was obvious the factory had assembled the engine/trans in the frame with the bb crossmember and then drilled the holes for the Z-bar bracket. With the sb crossmember in place the bracket holes were mis-located.

Thanks for the reply. Well it might be an optical illusion, but if you look at the picture that is taken from the axel looking forward, it would appear that the trans is kicked over to the side some

Wow.....$82,000. Im getting me some chalk!!

Look guys. This is not what TC is about, and I really dont want to see it heading in that direction.

As far as I know, no one here is looking to buy the car. And there are no obvious signs as it being a fraud/fake.

This shouldnt be made into a site that just picks apart every car that comes up for sale on the internet. If a car has questionable numbers, tag, etc. while being sold as a "real" car, thats one thing, and especially if a fellow TC member is considering buying the car. But picking out every single thing on the resto thats not "correct" or whatever, theres no place here for that here on TC, IMHO. Keep that to yourselves, in private. Sure, I do the same thing as far as breaking down a resto, but I would never criticize that aspect on a public forum.

Lets try to keep it to the numbers/facts analyzing, and not just skepticism without any evidence.

my .02
dave

I have a job and a family where I have to be serious and be a no nonsense type of guy. Camaros and coaching sports, I like to joke around. Sorry.

I started the post when the owner claimed it was documented. The document is missing the vin that ties it to the car. It might not even belong to this car.

My car is documented and there is no way that you could say that they dont belong to my car or that my paper work is not real. You could tell exactly what my car came ordered with. This is what documented should mean. The best that you can get off his document is that it could be a big block car that had an auto trans radiator. Documented? No. If it is not documented than how is it a 100% real deal L78 SS Camaro. Some how this document gave someone the confidence to bid $82,000. My Norwood X22D80 code is more documentation than this guy has!

I think there is a place for this kind of nit-picking in this forum. No one is saying it is not real but there has been alot of red flags brought up. I think that it is educational for someone that may be in the market for an original car and shows what to look for. Phil

Well said Dave about all the nitpicking of the cars for sale, IMO this is not what TC is all about.

So it is ok with you guys that someone may spend $80,000+ for a car with obvious restoration errors and incorrect equipment? People expect these sites to contain the unvarnished truth. Any car publicly for sale is subject to scrutiny and from what I see they are getting worse-fake or swapped tags, re-stamped components, fraudulent claims.

But we are not supposed to say anything because it might offend someone.

You only go around once in life so if that is what the buyer wants so be it, i never make it my business what another man/woman does with there money nor should they worry about what i do with mine. Only my 2 cents, hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving.

I agree with Dave also, i have seen more and more Threads pick apart these cars, that are posted on this site and cars for sale with restoration errors and incorrect equipment. It seems to me this Forum should help someone decode a vin. if asked, but to "find" Camaros for sale without good resources and just sepculation doesn't seem right.I have been on this site alot and could honestly say this site has helping me find the "real deal" Camaros. If i posted my Camaro here and asked " what is wrong with this picture" alot of you would pick uppart my Ride because i built it with "incorrect equipment" my car is built to my liking:a modified,Street Machine if i wanted it built to stock,which is boring to me,i would of.We are just saying we should focus on helping others that ask...Dave is a well respected restoration builder and did the restoration on the "pass the grey poupon" Thread and restored that "High Dollar" Real Deal,Camaro.The Forum started off with negative posts with out any prof...i also like to have fun on this site...and when it starts to get out of hand and offends the Car builder who is a TC member,im going to say somthing...my .02 ....Chris....

I agree, to much negativity on some of the cars. I have 8 69s and no paperwork or protecto plates. Some of the attitudes from some people who do is what drives the fake stuff into the market. Everbody trying to keep up with the market. I liked it better when they were only worth about 15 grand. It kept out the rift raft. If you built one then it was your pasion. Now its about the money.

I started the post when the owner claimed it was documented. The document is missing the vin that ties it to the car. It might not even belong to this car.

The car's body # is on the sheet. Tied.

You have 8? Some of us guys are looking you know...I only want one and know I can't afford one that mentions documentation. This is my first time checking out the threads and hope I get some good info. thanks everyone

I was just cuious about the crossmember and the motor mounts.
This car is a big block, with apparantly a small block cross member. the bb block engine pedestals place the engine slightly more to the RH (I think) side than the standard small block pedestals, the bb crossmember then I thought, had the tranny mounts holes also not in the center of the crossmember as the sB crossmember does. This then puts the bb located off centerline of the car (again to the RH , I think), the centerline of the engine is still parallel to the centerline of the car, it's just offset by a slight amount. With a SB crossmember on a bb using bb engine pedestals, the centerline of the engine would now not be parallel to the centerline of the car, you would think that this might lead to some intresting driveline vibrations.

IN answer to how does an original car lose its crossmember. I bought a dissassembled big block car in boxes one time. Well acouple of times actually. But anyway, the one I am talking about had changed hand twice since a guy took it apart and labled everything and boxed it up. I was looking at the instrument cluster and noticed the Knock out for speedwarning was out. I look up the part number for the cluster and it said L34 or L35 with gauge package and speedwarning. I even found speedwarning wrote on the box with a lot of other stuff listed. Also said deffoger witch I didn,t get. But I found the harness in a box with other wires. So when Camaro nuts get cars dissassembled they sometimes keep a few things. I have a buddy who use to buy cars when they were a lot cheaper and replace options. I remember him getting a rosewood and 12 bolt out of an ss and putting a 10 bolt in and selling the car for the same thing.