I just got back from taking a test for a job with the postal service (not mail delivery). I felt like I did pretty good on it...probably mid 80's percentile (70% is the minimum required to pass). It seems that veterans get preferential treatment for any postal job (some jobs can only be filled by vets)...to the point that they get points added to their test scores (and it can be a substantial amount depending on their military history) as long as they pass the test. I am most definately not ungrateful for what they have done in the past, but how does them being a vet make them any better for a job than anybody else? I figure I don't have a chance in hell of getting one of these jobs...I was maybe the 2nd youngest guy there, and nearly EVERYBODY else was in their late 40's to late 50's with all kinds of military experience. The part that irritates me though, is that all of them have jobs (they was complaining about taking a vacation day to take this test :rolleyes: ), but still get preferential treatment. I know, I know...life isn't fair...

I've got to go work on something.

I guess its the least the government could do for a middle aged guy(being older may bump someone from being top pick for a job) who served his country. I've seen a lot of vets who have a hard time coping with everday life,let alone trying to find a decent job.Who would most employers hire first, a young buck ready for the world or a down and out vet? Since they got in this situation from serving their country i think giving them a little edge in a government job is not such a bad thing.

Yeah Travis,

I know exactly what you mean....I have been trying to get on with the Federal Aviation Administration for years. I am at a disatvantage because I have no prior military service.

Like you, I am not ungrateful for what our military veterans have done for us. However, the Federal Hiring process is definatly a patronizing system that gives an advantage to veterans.
Again, I don't be-grudge veterans in any way,but it is frustrating when trying to get a job with a Federal agency.

- Mark P.

Hmmmm... sorta like someone with a college degree having the advantage going in the door for an interview at a manufacturing company, huh?

Same thing....

Travis - I saw your post when you informed us you were going for testing... I wanted to reply but was very busy at the time and lost track of the thread when my time freed up some. I went through the same thing about 15 years ago. I had almost 10 years of electromechanical and electronic telco switch experience and was on a layoff list. I knew I would be offered a selection of other positions but none would be for the same pay or within 60 miles of the current position.

I had the oppertunity to test for a tech position working with electromechanical mail sorting equipment. I stuck it out through 2 days of testing, there were a few hundred that started the first day and about 30 that stayed to the end. At the time I didn't know who most of the others were or how I was doing but I stayed and finished the testing.

A couple weeks later I got a letter thanking me for applying and testing and that my test results were impressive but I didn't qualify in points. At the time I was puzzled by the impressive vrs not enough points so I went back to the office where I applied to talk to the HR rep. That's when I learned a bit about the government (post office was owned by the govt back then) My test scores were as high as anyones but I had no prior mil background, I was not a minority, I had no prior civil service employment, I was not female. All those things added up to bonus points I didn't have and others did.

My aptitude for the job was not really a concideration. I was told the position was part of a govt training program where the persons getting the position would do 6 months ojt, 6 months formal electronic training and repete for about 2 years, then the positions would open up again as the tech's that stayed with it for full term all get job offers because of the training cert they recieved that double or triple their pay and benefits ...

I walked away with mixed feelings, upset over waisting my time testing for something I couldn't qualify for but then kinda good about myself too. The space program had been in a resession at the time and a lot of big companys had downsized. I had held my own test wise against aerospace engineers, highly skilled electronic techs and mil trained electronic specialists.

My point is, make the experience a positive one even if it was a dead end. Keep your chin up and don't loose confidence in yourself. I have other pitfall stories but will spare you for now. Things tend to happen for a reason, your optimism is the key to your success in all this...

True,

A person with a college degree may have an advantage over someone without a degree in the scenario you described,Hwystarjoe. Likewise, veterans have the advantage when it comes to Federal jobs. Like it or not, veteran preference is just a fact of life when it comes to Federal employment.

Not trying to start an argument,but at least in the private sector, a college degree isn't always a guaranteed advantage. But when it comes to Federal jobs, being a veteran IS a guaranteed advantage. Ok, call it a small perk for prior military service...I can live with that.

I have nothing at all against veterans, but it's just frustrating when one tries for years to get a Federal job and doesn't even get called for an interview.

My professional experience and college degree seem to be of lesser worth than knowing someone on the inside of a company you want to work for. Recently I was passed up for a position with a company and got a nice letter in the mail stating that I interviewed very well and my test scores were well above the minimum required percentile. I took it in stride and forgot about it.
A few months later I ran into an employee whos feathers were ruffled because of the "stoned out of his mind new guy" he was forced to train. Turned out, the position I had interviewed for was filled by the CEO's nephew; a college drop-out riding on the family's good name.

Travis,
I understand your frustration. There are many unfair advantages in the employment seeking buisness. It can be "what you know", "who you know", "right place at the right time", geographical location etc. I am not suggesting any kind of "social experiment" or anything but an little more competitive employment environment would help a lot here.

The place I work for does not have an "org chart" because it would look too much like a family tree :rolleyes: "They" have no problem with that and it IS thier business afterall. If we don't like it we can go. graemlins/angry.gif I realy would like to do that but there isn't a lot of opportunity here so I am stuck here struggling with underemployment. At least it is a job. Not everyone is as lucky I guess.

Be patient, take something for now and wait for the good opportunity. That is what I am doing.

-Mark.

It makes it good to know that my military service will worth somthing some day if I ever decide I would like to try for a gov position.

Dont take me serious here, just some levity :D

Maybe they want military experience so that when you go "postal", you know how to handle a weapon.....

I can handle a weapon just fine, thank you very much! (That was in bad taste, I know).

Dennis, I know exactly what you are saying. I have run into that several times in the last couple of months with the testing and test scores. It doesn't seem to matter what the test scores and interview results are...not enough experience in this or that. What really frustrated me is hearing some of these guys (they are employeed, remember) wanting to get this job because they was "too busy" at their current job :rolleyes: I guess if this job is so easy, I don't want it anyway...I'd be bored to tears in no time. Interestingly enough, there was only 1 minority and 1 woman there (quite a hotty too graemlins/thumbsup.gif )...and the woman doing the testing swore up and down race, age, ethnicity, etc had no influence on anything...but military service did.

Mark P., its the same way trying to get a job as a commercial airline pilot. I have a cousin who is a hardcore airplane guy. Loves flying small aircraft, he is one of the youngest A&P tech support guys out at AA, but will never get a job as a pilot...no military history.

What sucks around here is that everything seems to be closing the doors. Even the piddly jobs are impossible to get. I have spoken with managers from places like home depot, lowes, etc...just trying to find something to get by on until something better comes up. Unfortunately, these companies know this. I was told by more than one person that they would never hire anybody like me because they know I would be gone the moment something better came along. These places are looking for high school/college kids and retired people. My salary history has hurt me several times too. I was never rich by no means but made above average wages for what I did...again, I was told that even though I was more than qualifiied for a job, people like me leave the first chance they get for better money. Its all very frustrating.

Don't entirely rule out working in the public sector....I competed against veterans and got a job! It is my understanding - and I could be wrong - that veterans preference can only be used by the vet ONCE.

Originally posted by sherr20:
Dont take me serious here, just some levity :D
Maybe they want military experience so that when you go "postal", you know how to handle a weapon..... LOL!! Man, that's just wrong! ;)

Al, I think you're correct. Some of our benefits are only good once. There are a lot of factors that go into accumulating 'points' as a veteran.... time in service, rank, percentage of disability, etc. When I first got out of the AF, I took a boatload of those tests for the post office and passed them all and actually got offered a couple of them. The first thing we had to do before the tests was to present them with a bunch of our military paperwork, and then answer a bunch of questions about our past service so they could tally up all of our points before we even started.

Travis,sorry to hear your having a hard time,well my last day is may 21st,I got the vtp.

Originally posted by carhodge:
Travis,sorry to hear your having a hard time,well my last day is may 21st,I got the vtp. Congrats, man graemlins/beers.gif
Did you know our illustrious union is now fighting for, get this, contractors benefits???!!! The same thing we have been fighting all these years to get rid of, our union is now representing...AND THEY DON'T EVEN PAY UNION DUES!!! And, they are cutting 50% of the non-union positions in the next 6-12 months. I sure hope those 4th levels and above know how to troubleshoot circuits and wire co's, 'cause the 3 techs that are left nationwide sure won't have time to do it graemlins/clonk.gif Oh wait, all the upper management is ex-marketing and sales people...they'll be ok ;)

Travis,

We have the same problems over here only no unions.

I call it the Brown Nosing Age......those are all they keep anymore. Sad as it may be.

Just a small observation.

It seems to me that several folks in this thread do, in fact, begrudge veterans their preference in federal employment. You can't have a preference without someone losing out. Those guys in their late forties and fifties most likely served during the Viet Nam war, not a particularly nice period to have been in the military (many folks in the army were draftees), and not a period when this country treated military folks particularly well. The job preference seems a relatively small thing, at least until it hurts a non-vet.

Don't mean to offend anyone with this.

I spent over 4 years serving my country.

I risked my life in Viet-nam.

When it comes to a federal job, why shouldn't I get preferential treatment?

Veterans make it possible for us to sit at our keyboards and complain with impunity.

I know most wont like hearing this but... I believe thats just discrimination.
Why the "double standard"? I dont believe in "specail interest groups".
I call it "reverse discrimination" or "affirmative discrimination". Dont get me wrong, I do
believe the govt should do more for Vets then it does! but what its doing (discriminating)
inst the right way and isnt fair to others.

You should get a job based on your qualification, and performance and not based on
any insignificant thing like race, age, sex, military service... so on. This meaning that if
your military service has something in it that makes you better qualified for the position
then fine, but if it doesnt, then you shouldnt get "special treatment".

If special treatment was right or fair, then on judgment day, standing before God you
could say: But Lord, I'm a minority, or female, old or young... and God would say:
Youre right you deserve "special treatment", in fact lets kick out mother Teresa and let
Charles Manson in, because he was so and so.... and deserves special treatment.
God made all men equal, and we should treat them so.
To me raising someone's test score "not" base on their performance, is like hiding a bottle
in the trunk - you get credit (performance) that you didnt earn yourself.
No the world isnt fair, but that doesnt make it right.

Let the bashing begin

For the record, no, I don't be-grudge veterans in any way. Because of them, we have our freedoms today. I'm thankful for the freedoms I have.

Veterans need (and deserve) jobs just like anyone else. I was merely expressing some frustration with the Federal hiring process. As a Non-minority with no prior military service, I can't even get the time of day from a Federal Agency.
And It doesn't seem to make any difference what education,experience or aptitude I might have either.

It's just discouraging to try and prepare yourself for a career field that your interested in only to discover that you don't even get consideration because of your status. (at least with the Federal Government).

I too appreciate the sacrifice veterans have made...and don't begrudge them their preference points. I think it's fair and reasonable. And if you get to thinking that as a NON-veteran you don't stand a ghost of a chance at that Federal job you covet....think again!

http://www.opm.gov/hrmc/2002/msg-018a.htm

67RS502: I think the kind of discrimination most of us find wrong is discrimination based upon an unchangeable characteristic (race, gender, ethnicity) or something so fundamental to our freedom (religion) that we largely prohibit decisions based on those characteristics.

Military service is not something one is born with and is often an involuntary decision, inposed on the individual by the very government that provides the later preference. As such, those who do not have the preferred characteristic (military service) could have had it if they wanted it. The preference is theoretically available to all, some have simply chosen not to serve.

One way to think about whether it's "fair" or not is to consider whether you'd serve four or more years simply to get the preference. I'm guessing that you wouldn't.

That said, as with any other preference, chances are the employee hired probably isn't the best qualified for the job, but that's an outcome we as a nation have thus far accepted.

I have to agree with ZZ430. THANK YOU very much for your decision to inlist and serve our wonderful USA!!! graemlins/beers.gif

Today... some choose to to enlist... and if one of the perks are an advantage to get a Government job... Great!

Some like me choose to go 4 years of College rather than enlist and I've be fortunate enough to have an advantage over some of those who choose a different path.

We can all create our own career paths. If you want a Govenement Job... first join the military. If you want to be an Engieer... then get your degree. It seems quite simple to me. Am I missing something here? :confused:

Like I said, I appreciate all that the vets have done. I don't even have a problem with them getting put on top of the job list. But to add points to their score is not right! Theoretically, I could have answered every question right and got a 100%, and someone with a military history could have only answered 85% right, but still end up with a 105% score on their test. If they only want vets, then thats all they should allow to take the test. They have other jobs like that. Several federal jobs I was interested in state specifically for vets only.

Whatever the case, I am not giving up that easily. I have to go take another test next wednesday for a mechanics position (yesterdays was for a general mtc position). If it doesn't work out, then I guess it just wasn't meant to be.

I'm a Vet too, of a different kind of war (South American drug war)but a Vet all the same. I don't expect special treatment but I have earned my benefits.

That allows retired goverment workers to "double dip" retirement. I listened to a guy before I got out tell us how to milk the system to get more benefits...he shut up when I told him those are my tax dollars he's abusing.

Have you tried UPS Travis? They have the big hub on 61st.

I am still trying to help you out here but there just isn't anything happening right now. Although Vanguard is supposed to pay pretty good from what I hear and they are remodelling their half of our building right now

[ 05-06-2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: CA420 ]

Travis... you hang in there. The right job or career will come. graemlins/beers.gif

One word of advise... if you decide to go to college to study computer stuff... take an Indian language class also... ;)

Travis, sorry about your luck, Good luck on your next test,something good will come from your efforts. I feel that a vet should get some kind of edge for a goverment job as they did serve their country for less than minimum wage with maximum sacrifice, no matter when they served, they served our country. At this time with all that is happening I really can't believe anyone could complain that a vet doesn't desserve some kind of an edge for a goverment job. When this war is over and all these vets come home, I believe all of these vets should be hired for any goverment jobs over anyone off the street. As we live day after day in our comfey homes and worry about if we can get a good job, these guys are living if rough conditions wondering if they will live to see home again, and all this for less than your unemployment check. graemlins/sad.gif Stop Winneing!

I don’t want to sound sarcastic, but you too can have that preferential treatment! All you have to do is go to the local recruiter of your choice and sign your name…

Anytime you want to get preferential treatment for government jobs all it takes is a quick trip to the recruiters office. Perhaps you could spend 200 plus days a year cruising the ocean like I did. 200 feet down with 16 nuclear tipped missles with enough firepower to incinerate half the world. I spent got over 13 months of my life 200 feet or more below the surface of the ocean, cruising at 3 knots waiting for some radio message from the president that thankfully never came (yet). Even got a disability out of it. And for that I get 10 extra points on some qualification test for a job.

Sign up if it bothers you all that much.

All for less than my unemployment check? I seriously doubt that.

And if I joined, I would drop dead the 1st time they made me run 5 miles in 100+ degree heat. 15 years ago I could have done it...but not now. Besides, I've heard the horror stories from ex-submarine guys who stayed under water for months at a time. Something about you never notice the smell until the next time you hit the surface for shore leave :eek: ;)

You guy's probably remember my story about me "leaving" the old refactories company with some help!!

I did anything I could to work after getting canned and before I could get up and do something, I almost died from depression!!!

Travis, do anything you can to bring in any money you can scare up b/c I will guarantee that it is better to be employed while looking for better work then not!!

It took me making peace with my ex-boss that helped me out the door before he died before the rage that radiated from me was lifted b/c It just wasn't right when the f--king Company plan changed after 18.5 years!!

My Pastor said I wanted Justice!! But now, I look back on it as one of the two worse phases of my life and thank the Lord about every other day as I car pool with my daughter to work that I am alive AND can work..

Hang in there Buddy b/c your time is coming!! But you gotta really scramble for it now, not like when before things started getting outsourced and the biggest part of our industry bit the dust!!

Good luck..

pdq67

PS., funny thing about the old Firebrick plant is that the two guy's I trained are still there after the whole she-bang closed up so I musta done my job so good that the company that bought them out couldn't afford to can them too!!!

AND to this day, I'm probably one in about a handfull of guy's in the WHOLE world that know how to shoot refractory plastics and pump refractory castables through several different concrete pump types!!! And it's been since '95...

I guess I got my justice after all b/c the place is gone now.. BUT it sure makes me sad to think of all my old friends I worked with getting let go...

The USPS is a private company, They are not a govt agency. I don't recall what year they became private but it was a while ago.

I have a lot of respect for Vets and appreciate every bit the sacrafices they make/have made for their/our country and agree there should be training and employment programs made available to them when they leave military service. The thing is as I see it, said programs should not be mixed into non civil service private sector. Meaning hire from within and don't advertise or look outside the federal civil service/veteran ranks. If you do, the field has to be level - skill for skill, knowledge for knowledge...

Private companys often look within to fill positions before going outside the company to fill a position. If the civil service employers did this guys like Travis wouldn't be subjected to the stress of being accepted for testing, feeling like he had a chance and then finding out he did better than the guy that got accepted because of undisclosed bonus points he didn't have. All the USPS had to do is not bring in the guys that didn't meet the prereq, be it being a vet or having prior civil service employment.

That brings me back to what I first said about the USPS being a private company. Can other non civil service employers use the same hiring practices? I don't know of any that do. I think that's because even though Congress cut them loose from the Federal Govt (notice the web address www.usps.com (http://www.usps.com) not www.usps.gov) (http://www.usps.gov)) they often fall back on the government when it's financially in their favor to do so. The US Court of Appeals has even ruled they cannot be sued for antitrust violations like a private business because they represent the government.

I think there is a lot more to all this than USPS hiring practices.

Aren't there ANY other jobs available except at the USPS? You act like it's this or nothing.

I don't think we do enough in this country to care for our troops. A few points on some test only seems like a token offering.

Originally posted by 69ProTouring:
Aren't there ANY other jobs available except at the USPS? You act like it's this or nothing.

Why do you say that? Just because I don't keep you updated on every job that I apply or test for? :rolleyes:

LOL I wish you the best of luck, Travis. I just don't want you to be too hard on the veterans.

If I came off as being hard on the vets, then I'm sorry. Dennis pretty much summed up what I wanted to say...if you want vets, then only allow vets to test for the job. They have several other job listing that are specifically only for vets...and thats fine. Besides, when I kick everybody elses a$$ on the test, it makes it look worse when they got extra points added tongue.gif
"Don't get my mouth all waterin' for tuna fish when their ain't no tuna fish"
-Red Fox, from "Harlem Nights"

:D

Good points Dennis,

Yes, the US Postal Service is a little different than most other employers. I knew at one time they were a quasi-government agency. But, I wasn't aware that they are no longer associated with the Federal Government. Sounds like they have kept the same hiring policies though.

My comments were never intended to offend veterans. If they did, then I'm sorry. I guess I have just been unlucky when it comes to my experiences in applying for Federal jobs.

It's not the veteran preference that bothers me, It's the way Federal Agencies go about hiring sometimes. If I apply for a job but didn't get the job because of veteran preference,that's one thing....But If I apply for a job and don't even get consideration for the job because I fall under a certain category, that's what I have a problem with...

True story,

I had a college instructor who happened to be a Pilot with the Federal Aviation Administration. I showed him a job listing for an FAA position (not a pilot position) that I was interested in. The job opening stated that it was open to the general public and had a TWO DAY open window to submit an application and other requested documents. My instructor told me that he knew about that particular position and said the reason the job had a TWO DAY application window was because they already had a contractor in mind for the job. The bottom line was don't waste your time applying because I wouldn't be considered anyways.

I know that sorta thing happens everywhere, but it's funny to me that the Government preaches and enforces fair employment practices, yet is just as guilty of unfair hiring practices as anyone else......

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now..... ;)

This just happened to be one of those "button pusher" topics for me....

- Mark P.

[ 05-07-2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Granny's 69 ]

Travis, Basic pay for an E-1 is $1022 a mounth. Michigan unemployment pays $1456 a mounth. I think you get another $50 a mounth for hazard pay. Don't think that any military people are making a high on the hog living.
They don't make much money but they do learn to have Honor & Respect and if they get an extra 10 points for any job they earned it.
I think you will feel different when you get older, I know you would if you had you donated 4 years or more for your country.

Originally posted by speedy-Z:
Travis, Basic pay for an E-1 is $1022 a mounth. Michigan unemployment pays $1456 a mounth. I think you get another $50 a mounth for hazard pay. Don't think that any military people are making a high on the hog living.
They don't make much money but they do learn to have Honor & Respect and if they get an extra 10 points for any job they earned it.
I think you will feel different when you get older, I know you would if you had you donated 4 years or more for your country. Please read Travis' postings again. I recall him saying something about the folks having the bonus points all being currently employed and taking VT days to test. He didn't say anything about them being active mil. He's also stated he's not trying to take anything from a vet.

The only complaint he has is he feels he wasted his time because after it was all over he found out the questions at the top of the page he filled out basically excluded him from being considered. Well at least that's what I got from reading the whole thread... graemlins/clonk.gif

[QUOTE]Originally posted by travis:
[QB] All for less than my unemployment check? I seriously doubt that.

I guess you know OK and MI unemployment pay is the same. Do inlisted pay for shelter and food out of that base pay?

My whole point to you speedy is Travis has explained himself enough to not be taken wrong and fired at for attacking vets!!

Ok then, right at this moment I am making about $75 BEFORE TAXES as an E-1 per month. The difference is, the government is NOT providing me with food or a place to live. And, I have a family to take care of. So there! ;)
I never realized that the USPS had no association with the federal government now. They still use federal gov test proceedures, applications, and test materials. Interesting.
And the whole thing about this is I am NOT trying to take any job away from an un-employeed vet...all I ask for is a fair chance at the same job. If I am not qualified then so be it.

Look at it this way. What if they turned it around and said "we'll remove 10 points from your test score because you have a military background". How do you think that would make someone feel?

I believe The USPS is still subsidised by the Fed Govt. If it were a free market enterprise, they would take the best qual'ed for the position... period... without preference to mil history. Unless they were in violation of racial, gender under-employment, testing would be equal for all in a free market. Not so for anything touched by our fed govt.

Yes, a military back ground isnt something that we are born with or something
unchangeable, but if it has nothing to do with being more qualified for a job, then
it is just as irrelevant as - race, sex, religion. Now if your military training does make
you more qualified then by all means - you should get the job, but not because
you were in the service, but because you have knowledge / training that makes you
more qualified. Hope I made that clear. I guess I just see things in life more
black & white, right & wrong then most people.

All those rich greedy senators and congressman receive their full pay after they retire,
serve their term - 100+K per yr. or more ------- more "special treatment"! graemlins/sad.gif
Personally - I think the govt should give the money that these senators/congressmen
steel from the taxpayer and divide that money up between all the vet. that have
served this country, especially ones that are disabled and have put their lives on the line
for our freedom. That would be fair and just! Because what more can a person do then
give their life for another - it sure aint sittin in the senate makin more stupid laws,
(which arnt upheld) and pocketing the tax money they've stolen from us!
I think that would be the right thing to do, and it doesnt involve "special treatment"
or "double standards". - it would be showing our gratitude.

On that political note this thread is done!!