As you might have seen on another thread, I recently bought a car tagged as an X22 but with a non-matching 396 and TH350. Concensus is that the cowl tag is fake (though they faked it with the wrong color, for whatever reason).

Anyhoo, going through the car, I noticed that it had the correct redline tach for a 396/325 and the heater outlets are in the right place. So at least whomever faked it took some time to be at least close!

It does not have the fuel vent line. All the style trim options are right.

Other than trim options, tach, fuel line, and heater box what else should I be looking at to verify an X22, or correct what's not right on the car now?

Thanks,
Dave

(PS: In case you're wondering, yes, if I ever sell the car I will denote it as "replacement cowl tag, originality unknown" no matter how correct I make it...).

Big block cars have the larger center-link,..this is still one of the best ways to tell if a car is an original BB car. Also, BB cars had the engine mounted a full inch from center toward the passenger's side,..and the tranny is mounted a half inch off center. Also the BB cars used the larger radiator, the TH-400 (if automatic), and a Muncie (if 4-speed). Also, all the RPO big block cars would have had all the usual SS equipment,..dual exhaust, pwr front disc brakes, rear proportioning valve under the driver's seat, 12-Bolt rear, multi leaf rear springs, special hood, etc.

Also, there are dozens of items that you would not find on BB cars that would help you determine a fraud,..5/16 fuel line, a 1233xxNxxxxxx VIN, missing bracket for dual exhaust, Saginaw or Power-glide tranny, etc, etc.

Big block cars have the larger center-link,..this is still one of the best ways to tell if a car is an original BB car.
That's just not true. Any 69 ps car had the larger drag link.

And the lo-po V8's had the same single fuel line as the Z and L78.

From the fuel line only, it had to be either a 307, L65, Z, or L78. From the other info, sounds like it was a 307 or L65.

This may be anecdotal evidence, but all of the half dozen BB's I've owned had the larger center-link,..the 1.125 incher regardless if PS equipped.

Conversly, all the SB cars I've had, a dozen plus, had the smaller center-link, .950" dia regardless of PS equipment.

The larger center-link is no longer available through Moog or TRW or GM,..only the smaller,..which makes sense, since only about 5% of 69's were equipped with BB. If all the PS cars had the bigger piece, replacement parts would still be on the shelfs.

Big Kurt,..what's your e-mail,..I'll snap some photos of two SB cars and two BB cars I have...which supports my theory.

Your turn,..and I know you have more than anecdotal evidence.

The heavier drag link was used in 68 on certain cars Z28s and BB's possibly(need to check my parts book) and was availble in the HD parts list as a service part, but wasn't used on production 69 cars. GM probably saved a nickle on them. The HD service part was discontinued in 69 or 70.

Same thing as the 13/16" swaybars in 69. No such thing, they were all 11/16", even on COPO's.

I respectfully disagree,..not trying to start a spittin' match.

Not all 69's had the same sized center-links. Again, my BB cars (I still have two) have had the larger CL (1.125") and all my SB cars have had the .950 incher.

If you have an original BB car, measure a one inch opening on your crescent wrench...then see that it won't fit over the BB center-link. And if you also have a SB car, notice that it will (if original).

Here's some more info from Pozzi's web-page...scroll 2/3 of the way to section entitled 'center links':

http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_steering.htm

Kurt S. believes some SB cars with PS had the larger CL, which got me to thinking,..it's possible that weight, front-end weight, was used to decide which sized CL a car received, much like coils and leafs. For instance, a SB car with PS, PB, AC, and Rally Sport option, for instance, may have had the weight to make the larger CL necessary.

Straight from the 69 Assembly manual:

For all cars:
UPC9 A2 Drag link (relay & tie rod assembly) (includes inner and outer tie rods, idler arm and steering arm) part number 3953215

RPO N40 A1:
Rod assembly all cars(steering relay and tie) part number 3953228
Rod assembly L34, L35, L48, L78, N44, Z28 part number 3953235

So far we can't tell if the drag link is physically different because the production part number includes tie rods, idler arm and steering arm. We know the tie rods on all 69 camaros are identical, and I beleive the idler arms are as well. We also know that power steering systems have a longer steering arm than a manual steering car, and an N44 car has a longer still steering arm than the N40 setup. So we need to go to the GM Parts manual to see what drag links they offered.

From the October of 69 P&A 30 book:
6.870 Rod Assembly
67 to 69 Camaro, 68,69 Chevy .........3953221 Rod, relay
68 Camaro (302) ...........................3923589 Rod, relay

That's it, the only two rods stocked as service parts. (Does't mean there weren't more production parts)

The 3923589 rod is listed in the 69 HD parts listing as well

6.895 Lever Assembly - Lever, Steering Idler
68,69 Chevy, Camaro .....391579
67 Camaro ...................3908383 (just for the record)

6.859 - Arm, Pitman
69 Chevy, Camaro (exc. 302, P/S, Spec steering)...3953217
68-69 Chevy, Camaro w/PS ............3935711
69 Camaro w/spec strg. (302) (exc. P/S) .........3953225
69 Camaro w/PS (327) (exc spec. strg)............3953231
69 Camaro w/Spec. Strg (exc 327) .................3953237

Did the 237 arm replace the 225 arm?

Inner Tie rods are 3930022 for 68-69 Camaros
No listing for 67 inners ??
Outer Tie rods are 3930026 for 67-69 Camaros

From these listings it looks like there is only one drag link used on all Camaros, except for the 68 Z28.

There are no unillustrated references in the 69 Assembly manual to UPC 9 in RPOs L34, L35, L48, L78, to indicate that there were any overrides associated with the steering system. There is one in RPO Z28, but it references page 9D of UPC9 and only the A pages are in the AIM so I don't know what part is being replaced. Might be the special steering gear box that was part of the non power steering N44 (vs the N40/N44 package) option. The N44 "special steering" steering gear had a different sector gear in it than the standard steering gear. Did all non power steering Z28s get N44 steering? I didn't think they did.

I await someone with more part numbers to either confirm this or to slam me.

I'm only talking 69's here.
PS drag links were larger. Manual were smaller.
Every original car I've seen supports this. Including the ps setup in my garage. L6, large link. Ask any L6 owner with PS what size link they have....

The broadcast sheets seem to support this. Only tied to ps, not to engine.
This was a topic a while back and other people confirmed too.

Yeah, the parts manuals aren't much help here.

It would seem to make sense that there was a pair of drag links, one for manual steering, and a larger one for power steering, just can't find a part number for one of them. One would assume that the service part was the larger power steering one.

Mark,
I know 13/16" sway bars were not part of COPO 9560/9561. But are you saying they were not part of COPO 9737, either. I do not know if it is was or wasn't, but I do know that it is generally accepted to have been included. And I have never heard any discussion to the contrary. A few years ago, it was thought by some that the sway bar was 1"...probably written in some Camaro book....but that was disproved.

There are certainly enough guys over at Yenko.net with real ones to verify 11/16" vs. 13/16"

9737 included the larger sway bar, not exactly a production peice. The only way to get a 13/16" bar in a Camaro from the factory is to have a COPO with a 9737 package added on. Out of a half million 68 and 69 Camaros, how many could have had a 13/16" bar, about 200 or 300 hundred?

The GM HD parts list shows a whole bunch of sway bars as being available for Camaros from 3/4" up to 1.25" and a rear sway bar setup as well but these didn't come on factory cars either.

Are there any 69 owners with a BB car which has the original center-link?...either with PS or without?

If so, are there any with the smaller dia center-link? I'd bet the answer is no.

9737 included the larger sway bar, not exactly a production peice. The only way to get a 13/16" bar in a Camaro from the factory is to have a COPO with a 9737 package added on. Out of a half million 68 and 69 Camaros, how many could have had a 13/16" bar, about 200 or 300 hundred?

The GM HD parts list shows a whole bunch of sway bars as being available for Camaros from 3/4" up to 1.25" and a rear sway bar setup as well but these didn't come on factory cars either.


I believe almost all (if not all) of the 200 or so Yenkos were ordered with the 9737, so there are at least that many. How many of the other dealers ever figured out there was a sports car option that would include the 13/16 sway bar, 140 speedo, and bigger wheels? Who knows. You would think very few of the remaining COPO cars got the 9737 package, so Mark's estimate of 200 to 300 may be right on the money. But then, he usually is.

Lynn

Interesting post, I just measured my '69 manual steering COPO and it is .948. My brothers '69 X22 p/s car is right next to it and it is 1.140. Wes

If by drag link we're talking about the bar that connects the pitman arm to the idler arm, mine is 1.125"

So is that partial evidence it might have been a real bigblock car?

To loop this thread back to the original question, what else should I be looking for? So far I've got:

- Correct heater core outlets
- Correct RPM tach redline
- 1.125" Drag Link

No, it means you have an original power steering car. Drag link its the same thing as a center link, its the big bar that connects to the inner tierod ends, idler arm and steering arm.

My N40/N44 L48 measures 1.152" in diameter dead center under the car.

If you take the rear seat back cushion out, see if there is an X2 in chalf on the stamped panel between the cushion and the trunk. I believe they chalked the X and the first digit of the code there. Not sure if they did all the X coded cars this way, but I have seen it.

davepl,..we're sorry to high-jack your topic.

Read my first post above,..it has other items to look for to determine BB originality. It seems the only open issue is the center link.

Berger knew about COPO 9737, for sure, as there are a few Double COPOs found from them. Not sure if other dealers knew about it.

Yenko was using 9737 in 68, so Mark's estimate of 200-300 is probably right. 201 69 Yenkso (or 198, depending on who's counting) + a small number of 68 Yenkos + a few Bergers + maybe a few others snuck in.