I know that the original drivetrain would be concidered numbers matching my question is if I have a engine with the right build date and code along with the original trans and rear can I call my car Numbers Matchine.

Most folks consider correctly dated drivetrains as "number's matching". "Original" is well....original (and numbers matching by nature).

I have the engine compleatly redone and the car is in the body shop being restored

ok cool I paid good money for the engine and didn't to here I wasted my money

Novis, that is not considered NUMBERS matching. The "NUMBERS" is the VIN of your car and the same VIN derivative on your engine.

Novis, that is not considered NUMBERS matching. The "NUMBERS" is the VIN of your car and the same VIN derivative on your engine.


Like I said....most folks...

I too would not consider it numbers matching without the correct VIN on it. It would be more of a numbers correct engine.

How about the term..."Period Correct".....or "Correctly Dated"....Not "Numbers Matching"


Dan

Like I said....most folks...

Guess I'm not most either. Numbers-matching means and should only mean original engine, as installed by the factory, with partial VIN stamp, if applicable, from the factory. This is the traditional definition.

However, over the years, as less and less Numbers Matching engines/cars are found, folks have been pushing the definition so that their cars could be considered numbers matching if the date codes & casting numbers were correct.

Personally, I think it's misleading, and now, to be clear in for sale add and so forth you have say "numbers matching, original "born-with" engine from the factory with original partial VIN stamps". Anything else said could and now usually means a NOM engine...

SandiegoZ, couldn't have said it any better myself. 100% correct!

For the record, I do agree on what "numbers matching" used to mean, and SHOULD mean; however, as sandiegoZ28 stated, it really doesn't mean that anymore. If someone says numbers matching, you really need to verify if they mean, "original" as in original drivetrain that came with the car.

I'm sorry for my confusing post, but "numbers matching" just doesn't mean what it was supposed to mean anymore, and that just plain sucks for all of us and is confusing and misleading a lot of folks trying to buy cars.

Edit: And that's my 1,000th post!!!

I know that the original drivetrain would be concidered numbers matching my question is if I have a engine with the right build date and code along with the original trans and rear can I call my car Numbers Matchine.

I think it would if it were a Ford. :clonk: To me, Chevys need vin #s to be matching. Otherwise it is just date/period correct. JMO.

Thank you for all the great information. It seems pretty clear that unless I have the original engine I can't call my car numbers matching. One last note though, the engine that I have was built week 3 oct 67 and the trans and rear were built week 2 oct 67 this being the case I would think that this is about as close as you can get to the original and should add value to the car.

CLWILCOX, just when did the definition of numbers matching change, if it doesn't mean that anymore? Who changed it? On what type of vehicle models/manufacturers? You cannot just change a definition to make it fit a person's non-matching car or make the car "right" which has a NOM!

CLWILCOX, just when did the definition of numbers matching change, if it doesn't mean that anymore? Who changed it? On what type of vehicle models/manufacturers? You cannot just change a definition to make it fit a person's non-matching car or make the car "right" which has a NOM!

Tombo,

When do some definitions change? When a large enough percentage of the populace begins using the term with an intended new meaning. I'm sure you can think of several slang examples.

Don't get argumentative with me, I agree on what it should mean, and used to really mean. However, if you disagree, then by all means, disagree, but let's not turn this into a debate. State your opinion and leave it at that.

I've seen this EXACT same question come up several times and most of the time, there are more people saying what I've said, however, it appears it's still a very gray area.

Since we can't just go look up "number's matching" in your favorite Webster or Funk & Wagnall, then we'll just have to settle for general consensus. Start a Poll if you like, I'd love to hear that most folks still view "number's matching" as being the same thing as "original".

Please let me be wrong...

/cheers!

One last note though, the engine that I have was built week 3 oct 67 and the trans and rear were built week 2 oct 67 this being the case I would think that this is about as close as you can get to the original and should add value to the car.

Here's how I see the driveline-value pecking order: (Highest to lowest)

1. Orginal Driveline
2. CE Replacement block
3. Correct engine casting numbers + date code correct
4. Correct engine casting numbers, date-code way-off
5. Random engine, built to look correct

Keep in mind, for certain types of cars, the original engine really isn't that big of deal. ie - a matching numbers 307 Camaro probably isn't worth much more than NOM 307 Camaro.

Conversely, not having the orginal ZL1 motor in a ZL1 Camaro probably won't make a huge difference in valuation - as long as you have correct ZL1 in the car.

I think it's the "middle tier" cars where the value influence is the biggest (ie - SS's and Z/28's, because many of these still have original drivelines, and it helps autheniticate the car, so people will pay more naturally for matching numbers SS's and Z/28's.

Numbers matching to me has always meant original driveline, but after reading this post I'm thinking I should revise my definition.

Original, numbers matching should be more the phrase to look for. After all, a date correct, casting correct block can be decked and re-stamped and then literally be a numbers matching motor.

Doug

Sorry guys, but numbers matching means that THE NUMBERS MATCH. That is, the vin on the car, the vin on the engine and the vin on the transmission all match. The build date does not count. Period.

Differentials, alternators, distributors, master cylinders, boosters, steering gears, radiators all have date codes, but no VIN numbers to match. Anyone thinking that these parts are original on their car are only guessing. No way to know for sure unless it can be documented.

I have what ever you want to call it Z28, but it is not numbers matching. It has a DZ, M20 dated for 1969 model year and I think original 12 bolt. But the DZ and M20 numbers do not match anything but the cars they came out of. Just my $.02

The ones that get me are the partially matching cars. I've gone and looked at a few cars recently that were advertised as totally numbers matching, only to find Edelbrock intakes, Holley carbs, headers, etc. While I agree that the important engine block and heads may be the original ones, when I hear totally numbers matching, I expect to see all the original parts. Some of these sellers don't understand how difficult and expensive it can be to find the correct parts.

My 03D Z28 has a CE block and is a 5/50,000 warranty replacement from Chevrolet. This 010 block is date coded I 27 9 and has all the correct major 302 engine components including the bellhousing, flywheel dated B 8 9, 1178 crankshaft, C 6 9 & C 7 9 186 heads, pistons etc....but has no vin stamp that I can find just the CE9xxxxxx on the pad.

My M-21 transmission does have the matching vin and the rear end seems to be original based on the casting date code and axle tube stamp.

Opinions please, matching numbers car?

Sorry, numbers IS NUMBERS; not interpretations of codes and dates! Thats the problem today.............Ask any reputable one (and I can name many) and see what they say!

Matching #s mean ONE thing, motor, transmission and rear end from factory. Although the rear end can be a 100% duplicate and no one would know, the motor and transmission can not, they have the cars VIN on them. If I found a #s matching car with the wrong intake, carb, distributor and headers I still would be extremely happy because these parts can be found to make the car 100% correct.

I've been searching and searching for the other posts on other sites I've read. I remember once I even answered someone a long time ago that numbers matching meant original drivetrain with VIN and everything, and had a dozen replies to my post telling me I was wrong.

Oh well, looks like everytime this question comes up and I try to answer it, no matter which way I go, I'm wrong.

Here's a post over at the CRG, that I will use to prove why I changed my assessment originally. This is my post in reply to someone asking what "numbers matching" means, which I told him what all of YOU guys are saying, and then JohnZ's reply, which is someone I have much respect for in the community that made me re-evaluate my thinking....


Posted By: JohnZ <Snake488@aol.com>
Date: 11-September-05, 11:58

In Response To: Re: 68 350???? or 67???? (clwilcox33)

> It's a simple matter of terminology for what the majority considers to be
> true. For the majority, "correct" means it has the parts matched
> for the year of the car and it would be identical to what came in the car
> originally and not a reproduction (usually, though some do consider repros
> "correct"). "Numbers matching" means it IS the part
> (engine, trans, etc) that came with the car originally, not a replacement
> or repro., but the very one it came with off the assy. line.

> Christropher

These days, there are as many definitions of "numbers-matching" as there are buyers and sellers. To me, there are two different scenarios - "original" means just that - the part or engine is the one the car was built with, period. "Numbers matching" means the part is the correct casting for the application and displays a casting date appropriate for the assembly date, and the pad shows the correct engine plant date/suffix stamp and VIN stamp; whether any of these features are "original" to the car is unlikely - they're more likely to be a "restoration engine" with "correct" (note that I didn't say "original") numbers for the car. Now that "numbers" have become such a key component in determining the value of these cars, those folks who "create" numbers are getting better and better at it; fortunately, very few are REALLY good at it. The oldest rule in the hobby always applies - "buyer beware".

By John's definition, a restamped VIN, dated correct drivetrain would be "number's matching". Who's right?

I too agree with JohnZ and his definitions of numbers matching versus ORIGINAL numbers matching cars.

I think you must have a POP or build sheet documenting the car back to the day the original owners bought it if your selling an ORIGINAL number matching car and those numbers on the paperwork must match what is in the car then to me it is an original numbers car.

Even with all that today it is still "Buyer Beware".:beers:

I've always thought of "numbers matching" to mean "THE ONE AND ONLY parts that the car was built with, and
"numbers correct" to mean "as it could have been built, correct castings and dates but not original to the car"
and "restamped VIN pad" as "fraudulently attempting to increase the value of the car"
Also, without documentation, I'd call a CE block "munbers correct" rather than "numbers matching.

But what do I know, I don't play in the numbers game anyway.

Why wouldn't a date correct, casting correct decked block with the partial VIN and assembly date re-stamped in the correct location be considered a numbers matching motor?

Notice I'm not saying an "original" numbers matching but just "numbers matching".

Something to think about. Lets remember this is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun!!

Enjoy!!
Doug

Why wouldn't a date correct, casting correct decked block with the partial VIN and assembly date re-stamped in the correct location be considered a numbers matching motor?

Notice I'm not saying an "original" numbers matching but just "numbers matching".

Simething to think about. Lets remember this is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun!!

Enjoy!!
Doug
For me personally, I'll fly with your last sentence, and be perfectly happy with my "original #'s matching 327" with dart heads, comp cam, edel manifold and carb, msd ignition, and soon to displace 383 cubic inches!

There are a lot involved in this hobby who are more concerned with "original" and "correctly restored" cars, and a really big market in the buying and selling of such things for a ridiculous amount of money.

These range from real car guys who just love em and can afford to, to people who invest in these cars because they like to look at them, as well as an entire industry trying to get rich off the collectors.

A car with a NOM that has been decked and restamped is fraudulent, even with the correct casting numbers and date codes.

There is simply no other reason to restamp, it's entire purpose is to enhance the appearance of "originality"

A car with a NOM that has been decked and restamped is fraudulent, even with the correct casting numbers and date codes.

There is simply no other reason to restamp, it's entire purpose is to enhance the appearance of "originality"

Say someone put together a "tribute" car and sold it as such, going to great pains to make it as correct as possible. The seller doesn't pretend it's original and tells the buyer it's not. Would that be considered fraud?

I don't condone restamping, I'm just taking the numbers matching phrase to a literal definition. Hope we all can "agree to disagree".

Enjoy the hobby!!
Doug

Doug, that would be numbers matching, But "in my opinion" also turns into fraud and deceit somewhere down the line. Thats why I do not agree with it. You could sell the car and disclose it to the buyer, sell it to him for fair money, then when he resells it on EBAY its an "all original #s matching car". I've been looking for the "right" 69 Z since last summer and its hard to find a good one. If you or I paid good money for a car like that and found out it wasnt what it was suppose to be nobody would be happy. Good debate though. Just my opinion.

I would say a CE motor, with documentation should be referred to as "documented warranty replacement motor," not "numbers matching."

I have a CE coded COPO motor in my Yenko Tribute.....I don't consider that fraud.

Sorry. You guys think what you want. I have to agree with JIMM and fiveforty. I've been around long enough to know that a restamp could not EVER make a car into a TRUE matching #'s car. As said above, down the road, the $$$ hungry dude is going to say its the real deal #'s wise. How would you feel if you bought a top dollar car thinking thats the motor that came with it at birth, and then finding out its a restamp? OUCH! A 396 from another Camaro put into your car is not THE motor it came with, even if date and code correct. If decked & then restamped to make it look right #'s wise, thats fraud! And show me a good restamp anyway. I'd like to see one! Recently on Ebay, there was an LS6 Chevelle convertible for big $$$. The seller said it <appears> to be # match, but further in the ad said the original motor was blown up by the original car owner. ????? He said the original owner told him this. I asked him if the car VIN was on the block. He said yes. I asked if it was a restamp. He said it must be. I asked him why the restamp issue was never entered in his ad. No answer. I asked him for pics of the stamp, and never got them. He never posted my questions or comments in his ad narrative or question list. He did post my congratulatory comment after he got a bid. He did post another guy's similar restamp question, but hodged the response. He said he would expose the stamp issue at auction soon in a response to me, but we shall see. I'd bet that he does not. So there's an example. Bottom line-1 original, #'s, true, correct engine came in the car, and thats the true one forever. Restamps don't count even if everything else is good.

Doug, the posts after mine accurately relflect the way I'd feel about restamps if I was playing in that sandbox. Sure, "you" did it to make your car the wat you want it, which was as accurate as "you" could make it, but what about the guy "you" sell it too, or he sells it too. Sooner or later, that car will morph into an "original #'s matching super rare musclecar" selling for multiple millions of dollars.

I would leave the vin pad bare, or better yet, stamp my name in it.

Tombo, you saw my response to a guy asking about what numbers matching meant from several months ago, so you know how I really feel about it. But we can argue till we're blue in the face, and it's going to change anyway, and people are going to get deceived and mislead, and in my opinion, outright robbed by believing a vehicle is something it is not.

I'm not grabbing my surfboard, but I'm not fighting a tidal wave either. Besides, cowboys don't surf, and my boots would just slip off anyway :D I'll keep my opinions and stay in the hobby regardless of how it changes. Though I promise I'll NEVER attempt to deceive anyone when it comes down to it and I'm not playing numbers games with my cars or anyone elses. If people want to restamp their cars for good or bad reasons, their going to do it and they'll call it whatever they want to.

Wow! there sure seems to be varried opinions on the number matching issue. I would like another opinion on my camaro. I have a 67 RS/SS 350 original trans and rear and most of the original parts, I bought a correct 350 and had it redun. Now will it make any differance in the future value if I use this engine or should I scrap this engine and throw a big block in the car? I do plan on keeping the car I just want to know when the time comes to let it go I can get somewhere close to the mountains of cash that it takes to restore one of these wonderful vehicles.

Doug, the posts after mine accurately relflect the way I'd feel about restamps if I was playing in that sandbox. Sure, "you" did it to make your car the wat you want it, which was as accurate as "you" could make it, but what about the guy "you" sell it too, or he sells it too. Sooner or later, that car will morph into an "original #'s matching super rare musclecar" selling for multiple millions of dollars.

I would leave the vin pad bare, or better yet, stamp my name in it.

Jim,
If the "you" in your post refers to me, I can assure you my block is the original.
Doug

67 camaro, quite simply put, you do not and will never have a #'s match. Only, you have a correct time and code correct motor possibly. It seems like you realize this! Enough said, I am done with this issue.

Jim,
If the "you" in your post refers to me, I can assure you my block is the original.
Doug
Doug, the "you" was meant to be rhetorical, and simply refers to any person restoring an old car

I think all this really depends on which side of the fence you are on. As there are democrats and republicans, there are purists and restorers. If you have a numbers car it is worth more, and if the market becomes watered down it may be worth less, particularly if it gets so you really cannot tell. If you are the guy that just bought a junk Z that needs a drivetrain you may be in need of a block. To RESTORE one of these cars with correct crank, rods, heads, etc. even if using a restamped block would be very expensive. It has been said here before that a Z without it's original engine is nothing more than any other Camaro, as the engine is what makes it a Z. If we follow this logic, we tell people to save that Z body because it is so valuable with it's X code, but after the guy spends a zillion dollars restoring it we tell him it is wrong. It really just comes down to money doesn't it? The more value they obtain the more particular the market will become. If it is restamped and you know it, yes it should be disclosed. How many of you would buy a camaro and not look the guy in the eye and ask him is it was the original motor? How many of you would not look at the codes, dates, stampings, etc. and decide their authenticity before you buy a car? If a restamp and an original were worth the same money, which would you really rather have, an original with a loose 60 overbore borderline on the sonic test and needing a sleeve, or a virgin correct cast and dated block in excellent shape needing a cleanup bore to be good to go? If you look at it as what it is - a car - I would want it to be the best it could be. I don't know that I believe that the federal government required that they stamp the vin on the trannie and engine either. I know the engine code on the cylinder surface would be needed as a 350 and a 302 looked alike as a long block, and the numbers told the folks on the assembly line what it was. I am not familiar with all cars, but AMC's never have had the vin stamped on the trannie or engine, so if it was a federal law why were they exempt? I think GM did it to help them control and verify warranty claims. As to this block business, the Boss camp doesn't make such an issue of it either. They will tell you right up front that most have replacement blocks as they did not hold up too well either. If it is a correct block with the correct casting numbers it is OK by them. I think bottom line, if you want to find a block to restore your car and restamp, do it. It is your car. Just tell it when you sell it. If you follow this line of thinking, why should we just limit our thinking to engine blocks with numbers? Why not other parts without numbers? Do you have a Nova subframe? Did your door come off a 6 cylinder camaro? Did you put a repop body panel on it? Did you put you original Delco regulator cover on a new regulator assembly? Gentlemen, really when is it all original? If you have one that is, you really should get more money for it.

zx401, beautifully stated. my sentiments exactly.

beauty and originality is in the eye of the beholder. i agree with that statement 100%. these cars are over 35 years old...........how many are left the are original.........i mean really 100% original as they came off the production line, exhaust and everything. what if you have the original motor and drivetrain, but had to search for the correct dated carb or starter etc. does that make that car less original?