This is something I was just sitting here thinking about and decided to ask you guys..

Where (or who) would be the best place to go for full coverage auto insurance for cars like ours? Reason I ask is because the people that I presently go with are a small local company that will only insure a 1st Gen camaro for the origional bluebook value (which is only $400) :(

I've had my car now for over 8 years and am getting ever so close to finishing it. Soon I'll need full coverage insurance to legally drive it on the street.

Which insurance would be the best and why?

For your situation I would say Grundy or Hagerty. Full coverage with towing on an "agreed" amount.

I'm with State Farm, an agreed value full coverage policy. Minor use restrictions but dirt cheap too.

I'm with State Farm, an agreed value full coverage policy. Minor use restrictions but dirt cheap too.


Triple-check your coverage Jim.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=70806

Jody

Garfield, I just spent the last few weeks researching insurance companies... Several will "work", but I think that Hagerty seemed like the best company. The fine print in my regular auto policy is what made me wake up and start looking at the specialty insurance companies. You spend alot of time and $$ on your car, it's important it's insured correctly!

Dano:beers:

I'm with State Farm, an agreed value full coverage policy. Minor use restrictions but dirt cheap too.

Same here. State Farm was cheaper, and easier, than Hagerty for me.
I also have an agreed value full coverage policy.

Uncle T and Jim M, where were you guys on the Ins, talks... everyone thought i was screwy.

I also have State Farm with an "agreed value". I talked to my agent,the claim dept.,and other agents in my area as to what I would get paid in a total loss. All said the "agreed amout" $$$$$.

Thanks guys :cool:

why would you need full coverage to legally drive it on the street?
liability would do to make it "legal", but if it got wrecked, you'd be screwed.
no matter what company you go thru, realize that auto insurance is a big scam, and no matter who you give your $$$$ to for "protection" in the event something goes bad, they are going to want to pay you less than what even they "agreed" they would.

Uncle T and Jim M, where were you guys on the Ins, talks... everyone thought i was screwy.

I also have State Farm with an "agreed value". I talked to my agent,the claim dept.,and other agents in my area as to what I would get paid in a total loss. All said the "agreed amout" $$$$$.


And my agent checked again when this thread came up and was told there is no agreed value with State Farm in any state. Can someone get something in writing from underwriting please!

Jody

Jody, did he check the numbers I posted ?

Same here. State Farm was cheaper, and easier, than Hagerty for me.
Is Hagerty difficult to deal with? I went to their website today and got a quote. Way more coverage than I'd get from Allstate for probably same premium.

State Farm does have stated value policies in which your agent will need to provide an appraisal and pictures to underwriting for approval. A stated value policy pays actual value (researched value, NADA, auction results, REAL WORLD price, its not hard to document old Camaros are worth alot) of your car "up to" the stated value. This discourages over insuring and coming out like a lottery winner in the event of a loss. I have submitted re-apprasials on both my cars each spring the last few years based on NADA Classic Guide as the cars are appreciating so fast.

State Farm does have stated value policies in which your agent will need to provide an appraisal and pictures to underwriting for approval. A stated value policy pays actual value (researched value, NADA, auction results, REAL WORLD price, its not hard to document old Camaros are worth alot) of your car "up to" the stated value. This discourages over insuring and coming out like a lottery winner in the event of a loss. I have submitted re-apprasials on both my cars each spring the last few years based on NADA Classic Guide as the cars are appreciating so fast.

Stated value does not guarantee an amount in a payoff, even with an appraisal. They guarantee a maximum amount. Agreed value is the only guaranteed one and until I see some evidence to the contrary you have to go to the specialty guys like Hagerty to get it.

Read this for the differences:

http://www.faia.com/web/2005/08/stated_amount_vs_agreed_value.aspx

Same here. State Farm was cheaper, and easier, than Hagerty for me.
I also have an agreed value full coverage policy.
I too have State Farm....They insure my House with 3 of my other cars but my 72 cutlass was appraised for $16,000 and I only pay $206.00 a year for full coverage...
Get an appraisal for the car....The hundred or so bucks you pay is well worth any troubles down the road.

I have Westbend Mutual for my home and car ins. With my appriasal I have a agreed value of $25,000, full coverage, and no deductable for $400.00 a year. I put it in storage for part of the winter and they shave a few bucks off of the $400.

I don't think Hagarty and a few of the others carry medical on ther policies. If they do it's not enough. Don't cut yourself short on medical if your going to drive the car at all.

Thanks again guys. I'm going to give all of these guys a call ( provided I find their numbers) and see if they're avialiable in the Chicagoland area and if so, what their rates are :cool:

I had a paticularly bad run in with Hagerty and no longer use them. When my daughter was 14 years old we just inquired if it was possible to insure her on the 67 vert when she got her license at 16. We were told no and figured when the time come we would shop around and see who would. Heres the problem, we noticed that we had not seen a premium bill for a unusual long time, and when we inquired why, found out after asking about our daughter they dropped our insurance!!!!! We did not recieve any cancellation notice at all! So without knowing drove both of our classic cars for about six months without being covered! Can you imagine if something happened? They could not give us any kind of real answer on dropping us except that someone must of thought we were going to allow out daughter drive the cars. I contacted my lawyer friend, he told me that they should have sent a cancellation notice, and since nothing ever happened I would just burn up brain cells pursuing the deal. I understand none of them are honest and perfect, but just wanted to share my experience with you on Hagerty, not my choice anymore. P.S. I had them for 8 years prior to the incident, and always bragged them up. I now have Condon & Skelly, hope they do not let me down!

I use J.C. Taylor classic insurance and have had my policy for 13 years with zero complaints!!! :thumbsup:

My cost is $148 a year for a $19,000 stated value policy. :D

Same here. State Farm was cheaper, and easier, than Hagerty for me.
I also have an agreed value full coverage policy.

I am also with State Farm and an agreed value of $30K is under $200.00 per year. I also have home owners, regular auto, boat owners, and life insurance with them and I have never had anyone beat their prices.

Will you guys with State Farm please help us all out here?
Since we are getting MAJOR conflicting info from State Farm agents it seems, will you please ask your agents to contact their underwriters or regional VP or whoever and get in writing from SF what they believe is Agree Value and if it is the same as in Hagerty and Grundy Agreed Value policies. Im sensing here that SF is different in some states but yet Jody's agent says nationwide SF has no Agreed Value policy.
Im concerned that one day we see a post in here that after a totaled out accident somebody finds out the hard way that their insurance really wont pay them the FULL complete Agreed value of their car. Remember our cars are going up in value each day. Im betting some company will depreciate a car before paying out and will use the 'lower' of comps found sold on ebay or other sources. I also fear they will not consider your 'original' car more valuable than a clone they find for sale on ebay too. This is VERY important stuff for all of us here at TC.
Lets cut thru the agents telling you what they 'think' is agreed value and get a higher authority to put it in writing. Anyone volunteer for this in their state?
My agent that Ive had for over 30 years with State Farm in Minnesots says they DONT have agreed value collector coverage similar to Hagerty. Regional SF rep said the same thing. So what about your state?

I am also with State Farm and an agreed value of $30K is under $200.00 per year. I also have home owners, regular auto, boat owners, and life insurance with them and I have never had anyone beat their prices.
I KNOW you don't have agreed value, you're in my state. As above in Jims response, please contact your agent and have him contact underwriting and see if you can get a signed document by them that your policy is agreed value and they guarantee a specific number in the event of a loss.

This is not for sake of argument guys, this is for the good of all of us. Several of us have pursued this in the past and have been told that companies like State Farm do not carry agreed value, only stated value. And please read the link below about the differences before responding:


http://www.faia.com/web/2005/08/stated_amount_vs_agreed_value.aspx

Jody

I KNOW you don't have agreed value, you're in my state. As above in Jims response, please contact your agent and have him contact underwriting and see if you can get a signed document by them that your policy is agreed value and they guarantee a specific number in the event of a loss.

This is not for sake of argument guys, this is for the good of all of us. Several of us have pursued this in the past and have been told that companies like State Farm do not carry agreed value, only stated value. And please read the link below about the differences before responding:


http://www.faia.com/web/2005/08/stated_amount_vs_agreed_value.aspx

Jody

I just got off the phone with my agent and you are correct it is stated value not agreed value. The only part that is agreed to (and photo documented) is that the car is "in near flawless condition".

I KNOW you don't have agreed value, you're in my state.

This is not for sake of argument guys, this is for the good of all of us. Several of us have pursued this in the past and have been told that companies like State Farm do not carry agreed value, only stated value. And please read the link below about the differences before responding:


http://www.faia.com/web/2005/08/stated_amount_vs_agreed_value.aspx

Jody

Jody...you are right on! I work for GEICO and used to use State Farm to insure one of my lesser value Camaro's because I was trying to save a couple bucks.

One day I spoke to our VP of underwriting and once he explained to me exactly how the system works since GEICO and SF use the same rules for "agreed value" and "stated value". I quickly cancelled with State Farm and got covered with a specialty insurer. The bottom line is you are probably NOT covered for the amount you think you are if you are using SF (or any traditional auto insurance agency) for classic car insurance, thats why we have specialty insurance and the stiff rules (mileage limitation, locked storage, etc) that come with it. :(

This is what my SF agent told me when I asked about their coverage compared to specialty insurance.

-

The State Farm Classic Car policy is also designed for the type of car that is not used to commute with. Most of the cars are used for shows or rallies, and in many cases are trailered. Also, if it is driven more than a few thousand miles per year, a regular car policy would be required, which is what you have now.

The loss would be settled by actual cash value on what the car is worth in its current condition. It may be more or less than the 13,500 depending on condition.

While there are a lot of resources out there for claims to use to value a car, I still encourage everyone to document as much as possible to help determine value in case of a loss.

Let me know if you want to go ahead make the change to the policy.

Originally posted by 69zz4ss350:The State Farm Classic Car policy is also designed for the type of car that is not used to commute with. Most of the cars are used for shows or rallies, and in many cases are trailered. Also, if it is driven more than a few thousand miles per year, a regular car policy would be required, which is what you have now.

The loss would be settled by actual cash value on what the car is worth in its current condition. It may be more or less than the 13,500 depending on condition.
But you still do not elaborate if it is "agreed value" or "stated value". As in earlier posts, there is a BIG difference! I have Hagerty with an "agreed value" of 25k with $300 deductible. This costs me $197 per year. If I total my car I'm getting a check for $24,700. Are you getting $13,500 if you total yours? If it's stated value, you may end up with $500. Don't take what the agent says to the bank, some know what their talking about, and some don't, as you can see by the confusion on this thread already. Better find out for sure!

This is what my SF agent told me when I asked about their coverage compared to specialty insurance.

-

The State Farm Classic Car policy is also designed for the type of car that is not used to commute with. Most of the cars are used for shows or rallies, and in many cases are trailered. Also, if it is driven more than a few thousand miles per year, a regular car policy would be required, which is what you have now.

The loss would be settled by actual cash value on what the car is worth in its current condition. It may be more or less than the 13,500 depending on condition.

While there are a lot of resources out there for claims to use to value a car, I still encourage everyone to document as much as possible to help determine value in case of a loss.

Let me know if you want to go ahead make the change to the policy.

And there's the kicker. Read John Z's response to that wording, his family is in the insurance industry.

"It's really quite simple to determine EXACTLY what kind of coverage you really have; just go to the section of the policy where it says/explains "What we will pay in the event of a total loss", or a heading to that effect. Unless you have a real AGREED value policy (shown on the declarations page or in a separate endorsement referenced on the declarations page), you'll find a bunch of weasel-words about "Actual Cash Value at the time of loss", "the lesser of", blahblahblah, which tells you instantly that you have plain ordinary coverage where the insurer alone determines what they will pay, using whatever internal formulas they like for market valuation, replacement cost, depreciated value, etc."

By using the "actual cash value" wording they have proved it is a stated value policy. You are at their mercy to determine the value in that case, and on a classic car I do not want to have to depend on the insurance company to value my car.

Jody

I went to Hagerty to get an online quote and they asked if the car was modified or not. I currently have a 396 in it but what the original was, I have no clue. Would this be modified or stock? I have sent them an email in hopes to get clarification. How did those that used Hagerty respond. There is a big difference in cost!

I went to Hagerty to get an online quote and they asked if the car was modified or not. I currently have a 396 in it but what the original was, I have no clue. Would this be modified or stock? I have sent them an email in hopes to get clarification. How did those that used Hagerty respond. There is a big difference in cost!


If it's basically a stock big block car (no blower, 800 HP, etc.) then go with stock. At least that's what they told me.

Of course I never get to used the stock rates! :thumbsup:

Jody

So the part here that says "You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is shown on the declarations page unless", or did I miss something ?
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a130/Dougs68Camaro/9e3cfe21.jpg

I went to Hagerty to get an online quote and they asked if the car was modified or not. I currently have a 396 in it but what the original was, I have no clue. Would this be modified or stock? I have sent them an email in hopes to get clarification. How did those that used Hagerty respond. There is a big difference in cost!

I agree with Jody but I've seen your car and if you send them pictures be careful what you send... As little as it has to do with anything seeing dash mounted guages and stuff usually says modified not stock...

I found going to my ins guy (family auto and home owners) and asking him to look into collector car ins was the easiest way to deal with it. They usually know the right answers you and I might stumble over like stock or not!

So the part here that says "You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is shown on the declarations page unless", or did I miss something ?


Doug:

Where it says "the limit of our liability" means that is the MOST they will pay, not that IS what they will pay. You need to read the wording VERY closely and as JohnZ pointed out in another thread....an insurance company is going to try and find a way to pay you as little as possible based on the wording in their contract and the current laws in your state. After all, they are a business, have to turn a profit and most (not GEICO) have to answer to public shareholders.

BTW, take a good look at the paragraphs on the right side of your policy that you posted. See where it says "agreed upon by you and us" and "approved by us"? That means SF has all the power to tell you what they will approve or not approve. See the last paragraph? You think if you have all original GM sheetmetal and have a fender bender you are gonna get GM NOS fenders with wording like they have in there? Unfortunately I don't think so. :sad:

Where it says in 2a, #1,2 that they will pay the lesser of actual cash value or cost to repair or replace the vehicle is where it becomes stated value. An agreed value policy will never say that. That means (to me) that they can find a replacement and give you that value, in other words look at comps. I would not want that to happen.

Jody

interesting discussion. i have been thinking about changing my policy to a collector policy as well, because while i drive it as much as possible, the truth is it sits a lot of the winter out in the garage, so i have full coverage for it sitting a great deal of the time. in fact i suspended coverage on my 5 liter ragtop because it currently doesn't ever get driven.
i too have state farm, and they have been good, but it costs a lot for year round coverage, on a stated value policy.
heres my question, of all the collector insurers, is there one that isn't specific about racing on occasion? while my car looks stock and could pass in a photo as such, its not. and while i know nobody (with possible exceptions) will cover you on a track, they could deny coverage based on "no racing" specifically in a policy, whether you were racing at the time or not, if they wanted to get nasty.
i fortunately know a little about insurance, i was actually going to be an all lines agent, and had passed all related tests and was appointed to a company, but was totally turned off by the industry. i bailed and never looked back, thankfully.
so, everyone take what these guys say very seriously, insurance companys will find every available loophole if they need to, and there are many. take nothing for granted and always have it in writing, or you very well could be very sorry. make sure the writing is absolutely specific as well.
thanks in advance for any input on specialty insurers you guys!

Here is a list I threw together of "Classic" car insurance companies: Chrome www.anpac.com , Parish Heacock www.parishheacock.com , Condon & Skelly www.condonskelly.com , AON www.aoncollectorcar.com , Classic Automobile Insurance Agency www.classicins.com , J.C. Taylor (modified insurance agency) www.jctaylor.com

Parish Heacock will cover your "race car" as well. I know there are two other companies out there that will cover "race cars" too, but I can't find the info right now. I think I may have posted it before.

I'm sure there are more out there I just thought this would help make it easy for shopping around.

Taken out of context may sound that way. .. But when I read it (As my agent does, and the claim dept does). I don't know how else to put it but in black and white...

2a,1 actual cash value or
2a,2 cost of repair or replacement
You and We agree that the actual cash value of your car is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page...

I'm done with this argument ! Hopefully if I'm wrong I'll never need to find out.

For what its worth I contacted my regional SF person that I initially had conversation with about this. I asked for some VP or higher up to explain in laymans terms IF state farm has agreed value insurance anywhere in the U.S. and if so, where and what is the language on the policy to look for. When I hear back I will post it here.
Doug dont get discouraged yet, this thread will hopefully answer alot of questions for alot of folks that never inquired about their coverages and at least give them some education in terminology these companies use.
Information is always good. Thanks for your help in this too. :)

Taken out of context may sound that way. .. But when I read it (As my agent does, and the claim dept does). I don't know how else to put it but in black and white...

2a,1 actual cash value or
2a,2 cost of repair or replacement
You and We agree that the actual cash value of your car is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page...

I'm done with this argument ! Hopefully if I'm wrong I'll never need to find out.


Doug,

Hopefully will get a ruling. The thing that would scare me if I had your policy is the little word "or" right after actual cash value. An agreed value policy does not have the option of looking at replacement value. Yes they agree with your value given, set the payments on that agreed price, but it is not guaranteeing that price in a complete loss. It is guaranteeing that price OR cost of replacement.

My agreed value specialty policies (and I've had several) do NOT have that little word in there.

This is not picking on you at all, we all want to know the truth. I have done a ton of research on this and everything has shown that they do not do a true agreed value policy, they just "agree" on a value for their stated value policy.

I really appreciate all the trouble you've gone to, to get to the truth. Hopefully we figure out for sure what that truth is!

Doug - don't take anything here as arguing to win the argument or just to be right. I know for a fact it's just about getting the info out and understood. and it's about others not wanting to hear a buddys horror story a year from now because a $30k car got totaled and the ins only came through with $10k...

As long as they use E-Bay or NADA for value.... I'm good.

It's got stripes so it's a "Z" clone right...lmao :D
http://photobucket.com/albums/a130/Dougs68Camaro/th_Camaro007.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/a130/Dougs68Camaro/?action=view&current=Camaro007.jpg)

The cost of replacement clause is where they get to go out to NADA, the local dealership, want ads etc and say "see heres an ad for a 69 camaro (or whatever) for sale for 5000 dollars". 5000 dollars now becomes the maximum they will pay for repair or replacement. That's how my Liberty mutual agent explained how it worked to me when I went looking for a policy on my car years ago. They only had stated value policys. He said it wouldn't matter to them that the car in the ad was a plain jane coupe, and yours was a cross ram Z28 with factory JL8's. You could porbably make them compare V8's to V8's becasue the VINs do note a difference in Camaro, but if you had a Firebird they could compare a 6 cyl coupe to a RA IV coupe.

If you see any kind of expaination of what the company will pay beyond "we will pay you xx,xxx dollars in the case of a total loss" you have a stated value policy.

I went through this same thing with State Farm 17 years ago. My agent did not know if I was covered or not and I found out I wasn't. I immediatly canceled my insurance and went with a collector car insurance company. Don't take a chance on loosing a big investment. The whole idea of having this kind of insurance is piece of mind, isn't it? If you don't have it what are you paying for?

I contacted Haggerty to see if my car would be considered stock or modified and this was their response:

Hello Mr. Fleming!

Thank you for your email inquiry. The definition of a modified vehicle is any vehicle that has been changed from its original manufactured state and is no longer in its original "stock" condition. Acceptable modifications that don't require a rate increase (can be considered
original) are modifications that make a vehicle more safe to drive or do not significantly alter the appearance or performance of the vehicle itself. Your 1967 Camaro currently has a 396 engine which was a vehicle option that model year with 325 hp. If your new engine's horsepower is actually 50 hp or more, then we would have to consider it as a modified vehicle for our program.

Royce, thanks for the list.

I contacted Haggerty to see if my car would be considered stock or modified and this was their response:

Hello Mr. Fleming!

Your 1967 Camaro currently has a 396 engine which was a vehicle option that model year with 325 hp. If your new engine's horsepower is actually 50 hp or more, then we would have to consider it as a modified vehicle for our program.

Are they gonna pull the motor and put it on a dyno????

I have asked that question! I am waiting for a response. Basically I asked them if they would take the customers word that it was within the parameters they stated. My guess is they will unless there was a blower or nitrous strapped to it.............

Funk, you're welcome.

The thing to look out for is loop holes. Lets say you wreck your car and it has 500HP instead of the stated 325HP. Or is not what "they" consider stock. They really can't prove it, but it would stink for them to use that as an excuse not to pay the claim. I would rather error on the side of overkill when it comes to insurance. I know once I finish this car I will go with a company that will not frown on a roll cage or blower. I really don't know what difference it makes, the car is insured for a given amount (shouldn't matter what the car has for power or safety equipment). If anything you should get a discount for a roll cage/bar that might just save them medical bills. Your driving record, vehicle value, age, where you live, should be about all they look at. if they state in the policy they won't cover your car during racing, what difference does it make if it has nitrous on the street? Does that make it more likely to crash? If we were buying "warranties" and not insurance it would make sense.

Ok guys, here is Corp. State Farm statement regarding Agreed Value.. I got this from a media relations person who tracked it uphill to Corp. and was allowed to pass along the following statement regarding State Farm polices. They DO offer agreed value coverage. Here is the text of her email to me:

State Farm Automobile Insurance Company does offer an Antique and Classic Motor Vehicle endorsement with an " Agreed Value " provision. The agreed value is listed on the declarations page and is considered the actual cash value of the vehicle if a total loss occurs, unless the value of the vehicle has been reduced by one of the following after the vehicle value shown on the declaration page was agreed to and prior to the loss:

The car has been damaged.

Parts have been removed from the car.

The car's condition has changed due to abuse or neglect [after the vehicle value shown on the declaration page was agreed to and prior to the loss.]

If any of these events have occurred the agreed upon actual cash value is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page reduced by the decreases in the value of the car .
Because there are multiple classes of older vehicles and the owners use of the vehicle and insurance needs vary, we recommend to contact an agent to determine the most appropriate policy or endorsement.

The information came from our Corporate offices, and would apply to all states. Lori Kush State Farm St.Paul,MN

Now maybe some of you with State Farm connections can get a scan of your policy in this section and post it so we can all see the wording and see if there are any holes in it.
Jody, maybe your agent can clarify his opinion based on this info. from SF corp.

Click I will have the wife dig out one of my old State Farm policies when she gets home. I had my last Camaro covered with them and it was an "agreed value" policy. Thanks for doing the leg work and this explains why some of us that have State Farm swore we had an agreed value policy and others said they didn't offer it.

Royce, my only concern is that there is a blank line that gets filled in annualy for the agreed value "such as $35,000" and not just the words 'agreed value' which then would be a big debate at the time a claim might happen. Who decides what that 'agreed value' is if its not printed out like it is with my Hagerty policy. I just upped my Hagerty to $40,000 last week.
Id always want it in writing ( 'value, $40,000') so there is no question what Id get in case of a total loss. I dont want to quibble for months after a claim, Id want my check to do shopping right away and not have to debate someone that is trying to determine 'agreed value' after the fact.

The hole in that policy is "actual cash value". Who and how is that determined? My agent says that allows them to look at comps. No agreed value policy I've ever had has that wording. They say in a total loss you get $XXX dollars.

Jody

Exactly my fear Jody, thats why Id love to see someone's policy wording, so if there is that big HOLE in their language, we can kick it back up through my contact here for either clarification or they need to define their definition of 'agreed value' so an unsuspecting car nut doesnt get screwed.

Note also that this appears to be a limited use policy. The words antique and classic motor vehicle policy would indicate (to me) that there are limitations to the cars use, ie participating in a parade, or auto show. Doubt something like the power tour would be covered. Probably driving it to work would not be covered either.

I'll have to see if i can find my haggerty policy.

good point Mark, I asked my Hagerty rep about long distance car show trips, he said, OK no problem... just be going to or coming from a car related event and you are fine, no mileage restriction either.

With my State Farm policy I did get a letter once a year asking the mileage. I would fill it out and send it in. There were no limitations on when I could drive it. I know many classic car policies have mileage limits and restriction on where you can park it. I don't think any of them have "no restrictions". While they did ask for mileage they never told me how much I could or could not drive the car. I think they were just keeping track.

As far as who decides what the agreed policy amount is. When I asked for the policy my agent said yes, we have those policies, how much do you want. At that time I said $15,000 which later I upped to $25,000, when I was at the $15K level I never got the letter asking mileage. Once I upped it I started getting the letter. Now in the event of a total loss, I don't know what the deal would be, thankfully I never had to find out. I have since learned that many policies do not cover cars with "racing equipment" (roll bars/cages, nitrous, blowers, turbos, etc...) That is something people need to watch out for as well.