About an hour ago, I did this big long post about how I convinced my wife to let me spend more money on my car... seems I forgot to hit post, and it's gone and lost forever.

Regardless, it may finally be time to upgrade from 4 wheel drums to 4 wheel disks. I've spent some time on Pozzi's site rereading seriously and learning a lot, but many of the links don't seem to be working todsay, and a lot of the info is kinda sketchy... wutsa master with a big butt? and why does on e sentence refer to C4 brakes as 12" but the link to a caliper bracket says 13" and a story on 12" vette brakes ends with "when you are done you'll have 1LE camaro brakes?

Anyway, many of you (were smarter than me and..) upgraded your brakes, so clue me in on the details.

I want manual brakes. Four wheel disk. Fronts need to fit in a 16" wheel (12" rotors?). I won't be carving mounting brackets out of solid steel plate, but don't get too excited about paying $700 for $300 worth of stuff I could buy at Auto zone if I knew what to ask for.

You can spend a lot on Baer or Stainless Steel brake kits that IMO are not real impressive for the price and you'll be up $h!t$ creek with a turd for a paddle if you need a part on the spot (like broke down in Autozone parking lot.) Check out www.rightstuffdetailing.com. Best kits around and ive looked at them all. They give you a real porprtioning valve and a real Delco booster.Not some goofy looking booster and non DOT adjustable valve like some others. Give them a call if you dont want to try and navigate the online catalog.The owner usually answers and is way cool.

Jim if you look at this site you might get a better idea about which brakes you are looking at, i personally dont have the answer for you but i think this might get you closer
this is one of the few sites ive seen that tells you what car the brakes come from

http://www.touring-classics.com/Brake%20Kits.htm

I put LS1 Camaro 12" brakes on the front of my '69 Camaro and mid 90's Camaro disc brakes on the rear. The front is installed using a bracket that a guy on eBay often sells for about $50. The front does require that you turn the hubs down to fit inside the rotor, and also modify the spindle if you have the drum brake spindle. I had the disc brake spindle so I needed spacers, but no modifications to the spindle.
The rear brakes are the same as described on Torker's web site that is linked to David Pozzi's site. http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html
Since the LS1 Camaro has a 1" bore master cylinder, I purchased a 1" cast iron M/C from www.rightstuffdetailing.com so that things look somewhat original under the hood. I used a brake booster, so you might need to go with a smaller bore with non-power brakes.
This has thus far been tested by me with a few slow speed stops and feels good, but has not been tested in real world conditions.
A 15" wheel will not fit over the LS1 brake caliper. A 16" Torque Thrust II fits beautifully with about 1/4" clearance all around and looks like it was made for the car. I even tried an aftermarket 16" Ralley wheel, but it wouldn't fit either.
Since I am not sure how to post photos I'll send you a few in a private email message.
Good luck in your quest for 4-wheel disc brakes.

wake up guys!! In the past 13 hours, I spent 7 sleeping and 6 reading about brakes. My head is spinning, in serious danger of unscrewing itself and falling on the garage floor!

I've learned the following:

There seems to be very little test data, Did find one where CHP put willwood 4 wheel disks on a nova, and stopping distance fell from 200 ft to 150. I've found absolutely nothing showing brake performance increase with "big brakes" as aposed to stock disks, and nothing comparing rear stock drums, big drums, or disks.
It appears no one who's upgraded their brakes has ever finished their car. Tons of posts on doing this, zero followup.
No one does manual brakes. I really want to avoid that booster under the hood, they are just too big and ugly. SSBC does list a manual kit, but they ain't telling what master they use. I've seen some "electric boost" masters in magazines lately, anyone have experience with these?

I've "postponed" this upgrade for a lot of years. The drum brakes work fine as long as you don't hafta stop fast, in 6 years I've seriously wished for better brakes about 4 times... of course this wishing was happening while pushing the brake pedal wityh all my strength while watching the bumper in front of me get bigger and bigger, this is a meaningful experience.

Andrew (x33d80) I got your pics, thanks. Looks like exactly what I have in mind (except for the big ugly power booster...lol). Where did all this stuff come from? Did you have the brackets made, or buy them? Looks like pbr calipers all around, 12" rotors in front, right? Did you peice this together, or buy a kit? Cost?

Have you driven the car yet? How do the brakes really work?
Did you upgrade from disk drum or drum drum?

No I have not tested mine at the track.When I was reading before doing mine I found this site useful and wrote to him a few times. He did 2 different systems on the front but kept the rear drums. I took it a little further and went with rear disks.You may have seen his site alreadt but here is the link

http://www.lugnutz.com/67ftbrks.htm

I'm in the same boat here kinda, I have power disc brakes up front, stock size, I want 13" brakes up front but would like an alternative to the Baer solution. I've not found a good writeup to convert stock disc to 13" disc. Parts needed, brackets needed and where they were bought from or who manufacturered them on their CNC machine, etc..

dayum Brian... when i saw you had replied, I'd hoped all the answers would be here now!
Looks like we're in the same boat tho. I kinda wish I'd gone with 17" front wheels, seems most of what I'm seeing out there won't fit 16's.

Still wondering how much better a pbr caliber 4 wheel disk setup really stops as compared to a 69 factory disk / drum setup.

Jim, I upgraded to Baer's 12" system front and rear, Hydroboost and new 70's corvette MC. With the OEM style 11"booster I couldn't get the brakes to lock up like I wanted. Instead of fooling around with different MC bore sizes I bit the bullit and got the Hydroboost. Couldn't be happier. Braking is superb! My 12" rotors fit my 17" wheels and my 15" wheels. I have found that with 13" rotors you need 17" wheels. The Hydroboost has a sleeker, more modern appearance, not like the booster. I kinda like the gold cad booster look, however I chose performance.

You are not going to get the answer you are looking for. Everyone has an opinion, mine is that stock C5 brakes are a fine setup for a 69 Camaro. The parts are readily available, cheap, and look good. I got four brand new loaded calipers with brackets and four zinc plated rotors for $500.

You have two choices, one is to pay for the research and development that a company like Baer puts into their systems, or engineer a system yourself to suit your needs.

Jim, I put manual front disc and kept the rear drums on my car,the car came with 4 wheel manual drums or as I refer to them the "factory G.M. death pedal" if you need to stop.I actually put them on it before I decided to do a frame off on the car,so I had some time driving it.I actually like a manual brake "feel" on the car,and it stops like a champ! I didnt choose anything special, no 4 wheel disc,no 4 piston calipers,etc the kit was complete and easy to do and I've been very satisfied,dont know if this helps,but thats my story.

I agree with Heretic, I purchased an research type article off ebay with detailed instructions on a disc brake conversion for 64-72 model chevy's in the past. In it was detailed instructions, part #'s, swap info and pics for doing the conversion with the least amount of $$ possible. Very good detailed info but after reading it I believed that the time involved with this conversion was too long for me at that time. I still have the article and recently looked it over, now I think that for a budget it is very feasible, and the time could be less with the purchase of a few atfer-market parts. It would defintely be an upgrade from drums.

I will get the answer I'm looking for... because that answer is simply the info I need to make an intelligent choice. I most certainly won't be "paying" for research, it is here for the asking, tho I may choose to purchase a kit. I wish I'd payed more attention to the miriad of brake upgrade posts here, buy I'm going back and reading them, and contacting those who have gone before, and the answers will come. I see three ways to do this:

Stock (69) disk / drum, possibly with 11" rear drums is a very effective setup, and may be all I need. Is somewhat lacking in "bling" by current standards. Cheapest $$

CBB style disk disk, c10 pickup front / late 70's caddy / trans am rear This setup woulkd require the most engineering. The large bore calipers may be a problem in a manual application, e-brake may be a problem as well.

PBR, otherwise known as C4 / C5 / fourthgen These are what ALL the fancy PT style kits are based on. Bling factor is huge, when we think of big brakes, this is what our minds eye see's, those nice alluminum 2 piston calipers. Can be done with either 12" or 13" rotors. Most kits are power, and they ain't talking about what master they using. I'm still wondering about the real stpping poser of these things. If the piston swept area is about the same as a 69 single piston, wouldn't the braking power be near the same, course the bigger rotor will make a difference, but mine will only grow an inch, not 2". Expensive $$$

One thing I'd like to know, Heretic, is where to get 4 pbr calipers and 4 rotors for $500? Best I've found so far(without cores to turn in) is near $300 PER CORNER for loaded rebuilt calipers and rotors.

One thing I'd like to know, Heretic, is where to get 4 pbr calipers and 4 rotors for $500? Best I've found so far(without cores to turn in) is near $300 PER CORNER for loaded rebuilt calipers and rotors.


Ebay and Corvetteforum. I got the 4 z06 calipers for $320, and a set of new bendix rotors for $170. Just look around.

Ebay and Corvetteforum. I got the 4 z06 calipers for $320, and a set of new bendix rotors for $170. Just look around.
That's the best deal I have seen and would be the route to go if still available. Otherwise the core charges just kill you and you might as well go with a kit! Thats what I ended up soing, like Jim I found the cost of the Z06 setup quite expensive, over $1250 and still needed parts, and time consuming to piece together. You could go with Touring Classics, but I was just at there site and you can get a comparable Baer setup for the same $$$ if you know where to buy. Hopefully the deal Hectic mentioned is still available.

Ebay and Corvetteforum. I got the 4 z06 calipers for $320, and a set of new bendix rotors for $170. Just look around.
ok, looking... the rotor set is a great deal, but it's only the 13" stuff, same company's prices beyond this special are not so good.

Anyone ever hear of R1concepts? Huge ebay store selling tons of drilled slotted rotors, lists set for C4 standard brakes for $199. I know the fronts are the 12 inchers I need, what about the backs? will they work?

guy on ebay is unloading his original calipers off an 04 vette. Again, I know the fronts will work, what about the rears? Every C4C5 brake upgrade I've seen here used camaro rear calipers, anyone know what the difference is?

oh, and why is it snowing?

I will get the answer I'm looking for... because that answer is simply the info I need to make an intelligent choice. I most certainly won't be "paying" for research, it is here for the asking, tho I may choose to purchase a kit. I wish I'd payed more attention to the miriad of brake upgrade posts here, buy I'm going back and reading them, and contacting those who have gone before, and the answers will come. I see three ways to do this:

Stock (69) disk / drum, possibly with 11" rear drums is a very effective setup, and may be all I need. Is somewhat lacking in "bling" by current standards. Cheapest $$

CBB style disk disk, c10 pickup front / late 70's caddy / trans am rear This setup woulkd require the most engineering. The large bore calipers may be a problem in a manual application, e-brake may be a problem as well.

PBR, otherwise known as C4 / C5 / fourthgen These are what ALL the fancy PT style kits are based on. Bling factor is huge, when we think of big brakes, this is what our minds eye see's, those nice alluminum 2 piston calipers. Can be done with either 12" or 13" rotors. Most kits are power, and they ain't talking about what master they using. I'm still wondering about the real stpping poser of these things. If the piston swept area is about the same as a 69 single piston, wouldn't the braking power be near the same, course the bigger rotor will make a difference, but mine will only grow an inch, not 2". Expensive $$$

One thing I'd like to know, Heretic, is where to get 4 pbr calipers and 4 rotors for $500? Best I've found so far(without cores to turn in) is near $300 PER CORNER for loaded rebuilt calipers and rotors.

Unless the car is used hard on a road coarse, a good stock 11" disk/stock rear drum system works just fine. Super-short stopping distances don't mean squat unless the tires and road surfaces are optimal, and how often do we drive on roads like that? Mine's done 60-0 in under 120' using stock components with good tires and road conditions, but what does that mean? Get a good set of Hawk or Porterfield front pads + rebuilt stock single-piston calipers, good new rear shoes + combi kit, and the right MC and it will make a world of difference.

Large-bore calipers are your friend in manual systems. The later model C4/C5 PBR caliper have dual pistons, but the total piston area is much less than a single piston caliper (by 40%). Very few people have had success using the PBR caliper in a manual application. It does not mean it won't work, but the leg effort is usually too much greater than what the car had, and this is unacceptable to most.

Rockauto.com has C4 loaded front calipers for a tick over $100 each including core. If you can find a used set the rebuild kit costs $12 from NAPA. The '93-97 Z28 rears are more expensive, but they come with complete with pads and e-brakes. Torkers website has everything necessary to do the swap.

I've had all three; stock 11" disk/drum, 12" C4 PBR/Z-28, and 13" C4 PBR/Z-28. For me, if the car is not a hard-charging road coarse machine I'd stick with the stock disk/drum system. The 12" PBR caliper/rotor offers, IMO, no significant benefit over a well sorted 11" stock setup. The rotor is too narrow and not enough additional radius is added, to make it a significantly better option. The 13" C4 setup is a totally different animal. The rotor is much beefier and larger, which makes for a more capable system when pushed hard REPEATEDLY on a road coarse. The stock system can be used for fun track days, just don't max-effort it for more than a few laps.

C4 13" PBR will fit in some 16" rims. Combined with the 93-7 Z28 rear caliper, it is a highly capable system. They just fit into a Vintage Wheelworks 16" V45. It's tight, so fitment must be confirmed if you are using another 16" wheel. C4 12" will fit better, but the performance increase + the hassle factor makes the stock 11" setup more appealing. For either setup, a 7/8" bore is the MC that will likely have the closest pedal feel to a stock manual setup. I've driven several manual 13" PBR with manual 15/16" MC, and it was not acceptable for me. 12" would require even more pedal effort. That's why my car also has a hydraboost and MC from a late model Mustang.

C5 rear calipers won't work if you want an e-brake. The 93-7 Z28 caliper is what is used for by all of the aftermarket brake companies since it is readily available, easily fitted, and has an integral parking brake.

C5 is tough to fit in many applications due to wheel fitment. My 17's will fit but requires a small spacer for spoke clearance. Before going the C5 route it is imperative to confirm that your wheel choice will fit. MC choice is easier since the caliper piston area is larger, making a 15/16" manual MC an option. 15/16" MC's are easy to find, but 7/8" are tough.

If you really want 4-wheel disk, and keep it sorta stock, using a later model/ 70's GM rear disk setup is a good option. Mixing any PBR front caliper or 93-7 Z-28 rear caliper with stock is not a good option. The PBR/Z28 caliper requires 40% more line pressure than the stock system in order to obtain the same caliper clamping force, so mixing of components will lead to a dangerous mismatch.

Thank you, Carl, GREAT info, decision made.
I think I'll go with a factory style 69 single piston 11" front disk brake setup.
We'll see if I can peice it (all new) cheaper than I can buy a kit.
I'll plan on cutting down my existing spindles.

Last question would be exactly how far the original disk brake setup will move the wheels out. Pic shows how much room I have, it ain't a lot but I hope it's enuf.

almost forgot... should I go with a stock disk master, or would using an early vette manual master leave the door open to add those rear disks in the future?

The corvette calipers will not work with a 12" rotor. You will need a 98-02 F-body caliper for that.
There are a couple dicussions going on pro-touring right now about "LS1" front and rear brakes.

If you go with the LS1 front and rear setup, you could then use the LS1 master cylinder and an aftermarket adj. prop valve. This would then be a matched system with OEM engineering behind it.

Jim,
I'm in the "haven't got them installed/tested category"...read on at your own risk.
My objective was 4 wheel manual disc, no-bling, maximum performance, least hassle, minimum cost.

I spent months researching this issue. CarlC www.geocities.com/casanoc/ has some great info.
David Pozzi www.pozziracing.com/ has some great info also, but like you noted, the brake info is a little difficult to follow/decipher in places.
I also spent alot of time on the pro-touring websitewww.pro-touring.com/forum_main.htm...

I really wanted C5/C5 setup, but you have to go to 18" wheels to do it...not for me. www.kore3.com looks like a good source if you go that route. They have a very nice bracket.

A member here sent me a great spreadsheet that outlines all the necessary parts to do the C4/C5 hybrid set up using the speed-tech bracket www.speedtech-performance.com. I'll email it to you if interested. It's essentially the same setup as Touring-Classics, but to tell the truth, the cost+hassle+shipping (custom flexible lines, custom parking brake cables, etc.) turned out to be a wash between Touring Classics www.touring-classics.com and sourcing/doing it myself.

So therefore, I ordered from Touring Classics. Noel is awesome to deal with and let me order what I wanted (no drill/slot, no "Touring Classics" engraved on the caliper). He even is putting together a bracket for the rear that works with Ford bearings. These brakes fit inside a 17" wheel, so you'd probably need new front wheels...but you'd get manual brakes. DjD did a writeup on this website about these brakes. www.camaros.net/techref/articles/ftecref012.html

To stay in your current 16" front wheels, you probably have to do the C4 12" wheels or 11" setup. See CarlC above...and see John Maloufs website www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html

I hope this helps, I feel your pain.
Scott

I like the Big Brake look and think the touring classics parts are the way to go. Biggest reason is that you can break down in BFE and still find a part because most of it is off the shelf GM parts. If you don't want "the look" the stock 69 type front disc drum rears will work great. That's what I have and when I an afford "the look" I will go Touring Classics for my needs.

Dont use the Vette master.A master cylinder for a 77-79 Malibu with manual brakes is suppose to be the one to use for best pedal feel.Their were some manual kits on Epay for $389.

Looks like some of you have been doing a great deal of home work. Right On! We do appricate it.
Hopefully someone will create a simplified data base and share any and all this very useful information on a web site that will help everyone here with their 1st Gen Camaro braking questions or upgrades. Wether it is factory origional Drum, Disc, Manual, Power, or upgrading origional style or what the aftermarket has to offer as well as the Hydroboost stuff.
I'm all for adding any information or images that I may offer to this quest.

Kurt:beers:

there's just too much stuff...
Anyone ever here of Direct Fit Brakes, Glendale, AZ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CAMARO-69-68-72-4-WHEEL-POWER-DISC-BRAKE-CONVERSION_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33564QQitemZ 8042339841QQrdZ1
$1099 for a COMPLETE 4 wheel disk setup ain't bad at all...

well... at this point I've read EVERY post on this board for keywords "disk brake conversion" back to 1999. Learned some interesting stuff, too.

Did you know that in 1999, Paul's (PDQ67) CBB conversion was completed and it's seven years later and the car still has not moved under it's own power?

Currently leaning back toward 4 wheel disks.... those puny drums just look silly behind the 17" Cragars. Also leaning toward a kit, either direct fit, Matt's classic bowtie, or right stuff. All are similar iron caliper setups at around $1200 clams.

Still wondering exactly how far the oem style front disks would move the wheels out. Only thing I found was one I answered wrong, then pozzi and pdq started going around in circles, never was a real answer... seems maybe 1/2" per side?

Your tires will clear. The track width changes something like 1/4" at most.

Torker and I worked on that project close to three years ago since we live 1/4 mile from each other. We've got a few new projects up our sleeves :D

If you are going to use the stock disk/drum then the stock 1-1/8" MC should be fine. You could always try just the front disks and see how they work, and decide if you want rear disks then.

thanks again!

I converted my 4 wheel drums to factory front disc/rear drum. I got the stuff off of a 69 Nova for $100. Everything was in good shape - put new seals in the calipers, turned the rotors, new pads, and a parts house MC. Best bang for the buck upgrade I have made - stopping power VASTLY improved. Bling facor - NO. But it's all GM stuff and it worked perfectly with zero hassle. (And it fits with my 14 x 7 rallys)

Glad to see you started this thread. About time you figured out that you need to STOP that beast. :)

Jim, I bought my disk brake set up from this guy. Reasonable price and complete system. I'm still in the process of installing so I'll have to post when it's complete. Good luck with your upgrade.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8043785472&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT

ok, If I peice this cheap, using oem style manual front disk / rear drum brakes for a 69, I come up with $275 for the "cheapest stuff" from Napa. Rockauto is the same, plus shipping.

What's the difference between the low cost stuff and the expensive stuff? I see 3 levels of hydraulics and 2 of rotors, near 100% price difference.

This gets me rotors, calipers, hoses, wheel bearings, 1.125" bore manual disk/drum master, and some of the hardware.

I also see listed a rockauto, a 1" master, which is what Pozzi recommends for a manual brake system.

What I have not found listed at either rockauto or napaonline is some sort of combo valve or proportioning valve. From reading David's site, I want a valve for a 70 or newer disk/drum car? any suggestions on where to get it?

Finally, pads. What do you guys recommend that will stop good, won't wear out the rotors, and won't get my wheels too dirty?

My 2 cents..

I have LS1 calipers and 12" rotors with 17"TT2's on the front and LS1 on the rear. I bought used stuff for the rear and the M/C booster from a 2000 Camaro SS, used as well. My rear axle is an 8.5" from an '80 Trans Am so it's about 1 1/2" wider than stock. This clears the shock with the stock caliper brackets. I made brackets and have the factor 2000 rear ebrake hooked up and working well with the intermediate '69 ebrake cables. The 2000 M/C and booster went in without much work at all. I have about 2000 miles on this with no problems. The brakes are awesome! This is a complete LS1 package front to rear minus the anti-lock.

Noel

I converted my 4 wheel drums to factory front disc/rear drum. I got the stuff off of a 69 Nova for $100. Everything was in good shape - put new seals in the calipers, turned the rotors, new pads, and a parts house MC. Best bang for the buck upgrade I have made - stopping power VASTLY improved. Bling facor - NO. But it's all GM stuff and it worked perfectly with zero hassle. (And it fits with my 14 x 7 rallys)

I did the same thing. Doner car was a 72 Chevelle. Cheap, easy and works GREAT!

with the ls1 stuff on the front and rear what m/c and booster will work well..also what prop vavle.i ahve the m/c and booster new from napa i think it is for a 70 sumthin vette and the prop valve off a 2nd gen disc/drum....i havnt done the ls1 rear yet but i will i have done the front but hanvt finished due to not knowing which prop valve and m/c to use...i hope i can use my m/c and booster just get a new prop valve but i dont know which one to get...any help

Jim ,
I have the stock Z/28 discs up front and the trans Am brakes in the rear on my 69 Z . I drive my car all the time. It stops real nice. I do have a booster though. I agree with previous posts. For effective braking you do not need to go crazy on rotor size . I can send you detailed photos if you want .. or I can hook you up with these off my race car.... then you can do cart wheels when you step on the brake peddle:) The calipers and rotors on the right are what they call a Big Red Brembo set up, 12" rotors....we nick named the ones on the left the " Mobigssley " set up...15" rotors :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/GT1%20R/scan0085.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/GT1%20R/BrakesnCalipers.jpg

Why not use an LS1 booster and master? It's a balanced system. I just used an adjustable prop valve.
Noel

thats what i was wondering...but will it bolt up to the firewall...the ls1 has the studs on the booster the stock style has them on the firewall.....

also what studs to use for the front ls1 setup on drum spindles....

I'm gonna start a new thread if I don't get you guys back on the subject...

Whats the difference between a $60 rotor and a $90 rotor?

Whats the difference between a $20 cardone caliper, a $50 raybestos caliper, or a $100 Delco caliper?

Best M/C bore for manual disk/drum? 1" or 1.125"?
Best m/c that will work with disk/drum but will also work with future disk/disk?

why don't rock auto or napa online list ANY combo valves? Do they exist? where do you get them? Do I need one, or just keep the existing distribution block and put a proportioning valve in the rear brake line?

I know Jim!

I'm a sorry, lazy, SOB for NOT having my ride on the road after all this time..

Bttt, AND I figure that my "pdqCBB" front AND rear set-ups are the cheapest way to do this, imho!!

13" fronts and 11.75" rears!

pdq67