Well,

No debate for me no more:hurray: !!!! I just bought the tires (could not pass the deal)
I got some 345-25-20 Pirelli P-Zero Assimetrico skins (brand new and 1/2 price!) Yep, you read that right! 345's in 20's, i'm in it now and can't change my mind or back out :D

Hey, whadda ya want? I know myself pretty well and knew i had to do it that way to kick in some MOtivation! I'm starting to appreciate resto's and my heart will always have a place for 14x32 Eagles....But i want to enjoy that ride ('69) with the family (my 2 young princesses) and still drive a kick *** car, so Pro-Touring style gets my vote this time around.

I'm leaning towards Budnick "Hammer" Series wheel (20x13 rear!) to put on the car.

Hopefully i'll get into pics posting. I'll post one as soon as i cut out the trunk floor and put one of those monsters under there.

'Night.

Lead

Can't wait to see some pics! What are you going do for the front - 18s or 19s? Budniks will be a great choise.

Cool. :)

'Morning!

Well, the more i look at it the more i think 19's could be it. Its just a matter of space and getting the tire size on the dot. (I want the car LOW)

I've seen many 18's that don't look right jest because of tire fitment.

I'm looking at Heidts "Short" A-arms...Anybody has feedback on those? I'm thinking somewhere around 265?

Hey i just got the car (well, shell) off the Rotisserie a few weeks ago (now blasted and in and out epoxied) and have received my 1 piece floor 2 weeks ago! I'm waiting on the 1 piece trunk (on BO), then i'll get Movin!

Cheers!

Lead.

Oh yeah! Budnick seems to be one of the few companies i've seen that builds 20x13 wheels in many of its models for a down to earth price.

Those Heidts "Short" A-arms - are those the one's that bring the wheel in about 1 inch? If they are I have been thinking about using those my self. I am going the pro touring route on my 69 and wanted to put wider tires in the front. I'm going to use 18's all the way around (sorry but 20's seem too big), probalby a 315 in the back and wanted something a little wider than 245 in the front. If use use those a-arms what else needs to be change? Are you going to do the G-Mod?

Steve,

No trouble here on the 20's! It's a matter of taste and i just wanted mine to be a bit more exclusive (To me). I would not have gone 20's in a 285 either....

Yes, those are the arms and thats what their supposed to do (1 inch shorter and pulling tire in)

I would have done the guldstrand mod, but am now looking at the Heidts tall spindle (2" drop as a bonus)...And quite frankly, i'm not a suspension guru... and am not sure if those two mod would work well together...

I'm working on that! (Read,Read,Read...I'm getting square eyes!!!)
(Mr Pozzi...Feel like enlightning us here?)

Lead.

Thanks Lead,

I read so much of this stuff, the computer screen goes fuzzy. Then again maybe it's just my age. :sad: This suspension stuff (Geometry and all) is greek to me. I see Mr Pozzi's reply all over and every time he answer someone's question I have another. I have read his web site many times and will probalby read it some more. But, I think I will go with one companies front suspension system so that it should all work together. I don't think I'm capable of pieces together a front suspension system. Good look on the car and post some pictures when you have the tires and rims together.

Those Heidts "Short" A-arms - are those the one's that bring the wheel in about 1 inch? If they are I have been thinking about using those my self. I am going the pro touring route on my 69 and wanted to put wider tires in the front. I'm going to use 18's all the way around (sorry but 20's seem too big), probalby a 315 in the back and wanted something a little wider than 245 in the front. If use use those a-arms what else needs to be change? Are you going to do the G-Mod?

Steve you do not want to use the shorter uppers to get wider tires in the front. When you go wider the subframe and lower control arm becomes the limiting factor. If you bring the tire in there would be less room for the wider tire. You could make it up with your backspacing on the rims, but then you may run into way to much scrub radius. Also, I believe that they use the stock caster on the Heidts arms. If so you would not be able to get all the cater you need. The GW, DSE and ST arms provide more static caster than stock.

Good choice on the rims. 18s are about as big as you want to go for a PT car. Anything larger and you lose performance due to the added weight.

Not to hijack Lead's thread here, but maybe my questions on this will help him too. Yes, I was thinking of the shorter arms to get wider tires. I was aware that the Heidt did not alter the caster. I was just intrigued by the possiblity of wider tires. I was thinking that with 315's out back the 245's might look too narrow for the front. My other options I had been reviewing was the GW upper and lower coil over arms. I like the looks of the coil overs and then I can use them to help lower the car. I have the DSE mini tub kit and subframe connectors but thier coil over arms seem expensive for me and my limited needs. Would it be possible to use the GW arms, and a rim with a little more BS and put a wider tire up front? Maybe a 255, without sacrificing too much in the handling? Or should I forget about the wider tire completely? Thanks
Steve

a few detailed pictures of those INSTALLED 20" wheels on the car would sure go along way here, guys

Good thinking Steeve,

I'm in your boat! I too think the DSE parts are a bit expensive (especially compared to others, but it is said that the stainless crossshafts are of a higher density...) I have my eyes on Speedtech's, they look the same if not better and provide what you are looking for at a competitive price(appx450$).

I just got their aluminum subframe bushings and they are VERY nice parts.

I'm planning on getting their C5 brake conversion bracket too and fit 14" rotors and 6 piston Calipers from New Z-06 (its the same fitment)

I also heard the voice of Baz67...I knew i'd get that one again...about what is said from running 20's and performance 'lost'. I just haven't ran across anyone "RACING" his car seriously enough to notice the 'Loss'...That is why i'm going for the Pro-Touring 'Style' (Yeah, go ahead, call me a poser!:) ). I understand that the added mass will certainly hurt to some point, but then, it does so too from 14 to 18's where before you had no improvement at all (stock 14"s) i'm just not all that 'freakin out about the last ounce of performance and am willing to sacrifice a bit for the look i'm after (which again might not suit everyones taste!)

I'd really like it tough if someone could elaborate the effects of the 20's aside from rotating mass. (Bigger brakes should level that, no?)

Hopefully i'll be able to post a pic soon so you all can call how you like it...Or not.

Lead.

I think - and I may be wrong the inside frame rail is the limiting factor with how wide you can go in the front - not the control arm. Carl C chime in here. He has 275s in the front on 9.5 wheels with 5.5" of back space. He had to use the Speed Tech arms with the adjustable steering stops to get them to work. That's extreme but I do think that there are some people running 255s in the front on 8.5" wheels with NO issues. Don't forgrt the lower the front gets the closer the fender lip gets to the tire wheen turning the wheels. Think this thing through and measure carefully before trying to squeaze the biggest tire and wheel combo possible in the front. If the car is low enough - like the top of the wheel (not the top of the tire) is at the top of the wheel opening - bigger than a 245 on an 8 is going to rub a little somewhere under certain conditions. You may have to swap out the fender bolts to button heads. Hey don't stop now - we're waiting for pictures.

a few detailed pictures of those INSTALLED 20" wheels on the car would sure go along way here, guys


Here is our Project Prodigy with 345/25/20 rears on 20 X 12 wheels, and 295/30/19s fronts on 19 X 11 wheels. The dimensions of these tires are 26.8 X 13.6 for the rears, 26.1 X 11.6 for the front which gives us a 2" front to rear stagger which is a very good tire stagger.

One of the biggest problems with ALL 335 / 345 tires, no matter what rim size (re 18, 19, 20) is the inability to put enough front tire on the car to prevent a tire push because the rears are so wide. A stock subframe is limited to 255s (which are 3 1/2 inches more narrow then 335s) without ruining parking lot turning, and even the aftermarket subframes only allow 275s (which are 3 inches more narrow then 335s).

As for the concerns the tires will asorb horsepower, they will, so just put too much horsepower in it to overcome that. As for braking, they are harder to stop, so just put too much brake on it. It's all pretty simple actually. You will need big brakes to fill those wheels anyway, or else the brakes will look tiny. 14s still are dewarfed by the 19s and 20s.

CarlC put 17X275's on all four corners of his 68 Camaro.

I imagine the 20's are taller overall, so you may not be able to go as large on the front with them.

You really need to increase caster somehow, the benefits are: less bumpsteer, better straight line tracking, better cornering. The tubular upper arms of DSE, Global West, or Speed Tech all allow 5 deg of positive caster which is great. Lower arms can be left stock with no problems.
A shorter upper A arm won't help, it's a crutch for someone who allready has wheels with too much positive offset as far as I can tell.

Look at your clearance from upper balljoint to subframe at full droop, there isn't much room to move the spindle in without hitting the subframe.

The Guldstrand mod will work with any upper A arm. I don't know about the Heidt's short arms, but I don't see why the Gmod wouldn't work with them too. For a street only car, the Gmod isn't absolutely needed if you use the tubular upper arms to increase caster.
More caster tilts the wheel in at the top when you turn, it keeps the tire flat on the pavement but "goes away" when you straighten the wheel.

The Guldstrand mod pulls the top of the wheel in whenever the car leans or dips under braking.

Thanks for all the help guys. Each of these threads adds a little more to my knowledge of suspension, but that doesn't take much since I have no knowledge of suspension!

Lead - I think you and I are building our cars in exactly the same direction. Mine will probably never see a track (road course or 1/4 mile) I just want it to look good and look the way I like it. I already restored a 70 Chevelle back to original and wanted this car to be my hot rod, but bring it upto more modern standards, not break the bank and have a car that looks cool. The only absolute requirement for the car is that it beat every ricer on the road. Can any one say Big Block.;) Lead - Keep us informed on the progress of the car and lets see some pictures. And way to stick to your guns on the 20's and keep sticking for the rest of the car. It's your car and you should build it the way you want, and I'm sure most everyone here would agree with that. Good Luck.

Lead I hear you on the styling. If someone wants to put 20s on their car, than so be it. It is their car and they can put whatever they want to on it. I pesonally do not car for the look, but I am more function over form when it comes to that.

Keep in mind that the added mass effects more than just braking. You lose acceration, cornering and suspension movement performance. Remember that once an object is in motion it tends to stay in motion. To change that motion it take energy and that energy has to come from something else. The more energy it takes to change the motion of the wheel the less there is for the things we want the car to do. Now if someone want to compramise the perfomance for the look they are after than by all means do it.

I have a 8.5 with a 255 on the front of my 67 and so far I have not noticed and issues.

The wheel weight should be watched on 20s. Some rims can get heavy in a hurry. Surprisingly enough, for tires alone, the 345 / 20s are lighter then 335 / 18s by a few pounds, 30LBS and 33LBS respectively, however the inertia moment is still greater with the larger wheel tire, but not much in reality. With our 3 piece Forgeline wheels, the 345 / 20" wheel and tire weight was the same as a pair of Budnicks with 335 / 18s because the 20" tire was heavier, but the 18" rim was lighter.

I can't remember the specific weights anymore, but my HRE's with the 335/30/18's are 2 lbs lighter than what my Budniks with 275/40/17's weighed (according to our high tech digital bathroom scale, lol).

I would like to get one of the tire scientist to tell me if a 20" tire is 3LBS less then the 18" tire, but the 20" rim is 3LBS more then the 18" rim, which tire / rim set up has a higher inertia moment assuming the 20" tire is a 1/2" taller then the 18" set up? It seems like nearly a wash because the additional weight in the 18" set up is at the outer ring because it is in the tire, where the additional weight in the 20" is nearer the center because the weight is in the rim.

I will not pretend for a second to be able to do this math.

This was discussed somewhere else in heated detail, and I think when the dust settled and feathers landed it was basically concluded to be a wash. But nobody was able to do the math to prove it.

Scott, did those tire / HREs weight 60LBS / 61LBS?

Ahhh, I knew you were going to ask me that, Frank. lol That sounds about right. The next time I have them off the car, I'll weigh them again.

I would like to get one of the tire scientist to tell me if a 20" tire is 3LBS less then the 18" tire, but the 20" rim is 3LBS more then the 18" rim, which tire / rim set up has a higher inertia moment assuming the 20" tire is a 1/2" taller then the 18" set up? It seems like nearly a wash because the additional weight in the 18" set up is at the outer ring because it is in the tire, where the additional weight in the 20" is nearer the center because the weight is in the rim.

I will not pretend for a second to be able to do this math.

This was discussed somewhere else in heated detail, and I think when the dust settled and feathers landed it was basically concluded to be a wash. But nobody was able to do the math to prove it.

Scott, did those tire / HREs weight 60LBS / 61LBS?

i knew engineering school would come at handy at some point!!!.

being that I is dependant on the square of the distance to the center... 2 extra pounds 12in from the center, would be equivalent to roughly 8lbs 6in from the axis....

the design of the spokes can make a world of difference, and complicate the math if they are not 3 piece.

with more information, if you can tell me how much the wheels weight (if they are 3 piece would be awesome, separate weights for the core, the hoop and bolts) diameter, tire diameter and mass, i could do the math.

That is awesome. So which wheel has more inertia? The 18 or the 20? It seems like the 18 would because the weight is farther out from the center??

That is awesome. So which wheel has more inertia? The 18 or the 20? It seems like the 18 would because the weight is farther out from the center??
well, one 20in 3 lbs heavier and one 18in of the same kind, else being equal (spoke count, design, etc) the 20in will have considerably more moment of inertia.
if the 18in is the heavier.. i´d have to see where the mass is located.
but keep in mind, that if you think of a wheel as 2 separate pieces (core`s I being not being very influenced by radius as the hoop, and the hoop´s I WAY more suceptible even to little radius changes) that the handicap of the weight of the hoop (2 inches more in diameter) is not easy to overcome.

that extra inch in radius counts a lot when squared.
everything else equal... about 20% more I for the same mass at the end. (more so if you factor in the fact the hoop of a 20 is heavier than the hoop of an 18.)

Waaahh!

I only needed to share my :hurray: about my latest acquisition! But this is awesome!

Frank- LOVE the car!!! Talk about motivating someone, its like direct porting nitrous to my head :eek: Man that one's Killer! (makes me want to take out the sawzall to cut the top off mine!) + i like your thinking on adding more Power and Brakes as the simple problem solving to more wheel...(I knew it wouldn't be that hard to resolve :thumbsup: ) Why complicate things when there is a simple solution! (One that i REALLY look forward to on top of that! Read; Procharger's D1-SC)
Any reccomendations on wheel manufacturers? / weight regarding.

David- About the front tires not clearing because they must be higher questionning, i've always tought of Inching up wheels as having the same tire to work with, just adding rim inside of it-Or removing rubber from it.
'ain't that correct?

With the short A-arms, its the (probable) fact that i would need to use a wheel with less backspacing to even out the combo that makes me think twice...I don't especially like them with a fat lip in the front, i prefer them almost flat-Kind of like the Mule or the Motion Super Coupe. Otherwise, i could use the short arms to really pull in the wheels, still run say, a 255, but run the car low all the time.

But now i have a new worry...The tire push Frank talked about.

My last car was a Pro-Street '67 with 31x 14.5 MT ET Streets and 15x3 fronts. It was my first experience of tire push and i really didn't enjoy that kind of behavior on the highway...(Not too often tough...But still unpleasant)
If it was really that,- kind of like having the rear always wanting to pass up front?

I'm now seeing the importance of staggering tires in a complete new way, i mean, Looks are OK, but i still want the car to run HARD and be fun to drive.

Frank- Have you got the chance to drive the car enough to appreciate?
I'm also going to build some kind of rear clip ('thinking of using 21st Century's frame rail and mini tub kit) to permit dropping the car over the tires but am still debating what to run for suspension set up. (ideas???)

Palexisls- Great formula!!! (I should have stayed in school!)

Steeve- I love the "RICER" approach;) and i sure respect everyones tastes...except for the jacked up cars with yellow painted housings and traction bars!!! The owners of those cars should sell them to me cheap!

I really didn't expect all that positive feedback out of "only me screeming out my happiness" about a simple buy...But i sure appreciate it!

Thanks!

Lead

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3818

Very interesting.

Lead

Lead

I'll try to answer best I can. the first thing is, The potential issues, tire push, inertia moment, etc, that is often discussed, all come only on the extreme end of performance most mere mortals will never see on a street car. The Moment of inertia, if there is a difference at all, is not something you will feel in anything less then SCCA racing environment. The push is something 80% of the Pro Touring cars built have because everyone is running the 335s in the rear, and cannot put enough tire up front to work with the giant rears. Again, something that would only show up in extreme conditions. So I would not freak out over either issue.

The ride and drive characteristics of Prodigy are not relivent to stock unibody type Camaro's because Prodigy is a full tube chassis and full independent suspension. So I cannot give you any good feedback. As far as tire push, in our case, by building the front frame narrower, we were able to put enough tire up front to minimize push. 2" stagger is pretty good.

As far as tire height, we still run factory front inner fenders with a 5 1/2" rocker heaight, but we did mini tub the front inner fenders also. More for lock to lock turning clearance then bump issues. I included a picture, but shinny black is very hard to photograph, almost a black hole, LOL!

For wheel manufacturers, any 2 piece welded wheel like Budnik, Bonspeed, etc, are going to be heavier then a 3 piece race inspired wheel like the Forgeline's on prodigy, but the 2 piece welded is a lot less money. I can hook you up on Forgeline's, but even with a discount they are still damn expensive when compared to a 2 piece welded wheel, but MUCH better quality also.

As for tubs, we built the chassis and tubs in house. I would say any mini tub set up that would allow 335 / 18s will allow your tires, they are the same width. As for suspension, I really like the 3 link suspension from Lateral Dynamics for a live axle, and of coarse I like the independent rear.

Don't we have a drooling smily????

http://www.forgeline.com/wheels/zx3p.jpg

I am really not in the know on high end wheels as i can clearly see...I also saw Ifroged wheels? Nice too.

Yeah, they don't exactly give them away...But i was quoted 1350$ for a Budnik Hammer wheel (20 x 13) Here in Montreal (Yeah, Canadian Money!) But with the exchange rate this good presently it does not make that much of a difference and Forgelines are about 1200$(USD) for the same size so it would be VERY interesting (even more so if you can hook me up i suppose)...

I'm not really there yet (lots of work ahead before putting wheels in tires/ tires 'bought off z-bay as a lucky 'lets see whats up for sale on tires night' for 1/2 price new, otherwise they would not be bought yet) but i will definetely be getting back at you on that one. 'shooting for mid summer. Those ZX3's are 'bitchin!

I was told the DSE Mini tubs would fit, but am afraid about lowering issues. (+ if i have to cut them up and down to get them to fit my frame mods...Might as well go custom or at least widen them myself.
I want/ have to use aftermarket rails because mine are out of the car anyway and i dont think the combo would have fit very well...+ its a CUSTOM car...so i like it BUILT. (yours still gives me chills!)

I'm no expert builder, but i'm not afraid of much either...So it's a BIG project to me, but its gonna be ALL THE WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!!! I'm a firm believer that wheels make the car, so even tough i'm nowhere neer millionnaire (Not even '100,000ionnaire LoL!) a good budget is planned for those hoops.


Scott, am i mistaking or did you use a tri-4 bar in your Camaro? If i'm correct, how'd you like it?

I've looked and talked with Art M's guy's and it could be interesting...Even a full clip could be something to look at (?) i could even box it in a bit.
At first i didn't think good about it (clip), but i'm not decided yet so the door's still open!

Lead.

Sorry guy's....Testing.

http://www.racingjunkrides.com/view_ride/319/

Hope this works...If so, you'll be getting pics real soon of the 345's!

Lead

Scott, am i mistaking or did you use a tri-4 bar in your Camaro? If i'm correct, how'd you like it?

No, I'm staying with the plain old DSE 3" drop leaf springs... although I've been spying Lateral Dynamic's 3 link setup.

I'll be running 275's, maybe 285's, up front:

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/wd02.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/wd04.jpg

Sorry Scott! My bad,

I confused your car with ex Shay Campbell car for a second...(only same color scheme i guess!)

Faster head, Faster!

Lead.

Would you have a link to Lateral Dynamics? i've looked but can't seem to find anything (?) Thanks!

Lateral Dynamics does not have site yet. That is the rear suspension that is going in. Here is his email if you have any questions lateraldynamics at adelphia dot net replace the at and dot with the correct signs.

www.Lateral-Dynamics.com is under construction. ;)

I just weighed my front wheel and it weighed 45 lbs. It is Fikse Profil 5S 17x8.5 with 255/40 tire on it.

I'm agree with you Mr. Leadfoot1! If you are not going to do serious race with you 69, your 20'' gonna be very nice!!!

As you know, i'm going to put Wayne Due's front subframe and IRS. I'm not going to put 20" but i think 18" (like my 68 Chevelle).

front 275, rear 335.

On se voit sur la route en été 2007 mon homme!!!

Alex

I want to put 20s on my 67 also, especially after I saw these Foose Nitrous wheels on this guy's car. Any idea what the fitment was on this car?

http://www.camaros.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12717&stc=1&d=1257671092

http://www.camaros.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12718&stc=1&d=1257671106

I want to put 20s on my 67 also, especially after I saw these Foose Nitrous wheels on this guy's car. Any idea what the fitment was on this car?

http://www.camaros.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12717&stc=1&d=1257671092

http://www.camaros.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=12718&stc=1&d=1257671106

I would say 20 x 10 (its what fits best in an untubbed camaro and biggest avail from Foose)) and w/a 275 tire. You could max it and go for a 295 but nicely tucked a 285 would be perfect.

My how things change....I read my last post and also jouf69 's comment about never putting 20's on his car...He now owns my 19-20's and my car is back to a 9 second street car freak! Lol! His comment on being on the road summer of '07 is also funny as his car is still under major surgery!! How time flies!!! This feels like yesterday!

You reading this Alex? Wow....:cool:

Lead.

I would say 20 x 10 (its what fits best in an untubbed camaro and biggest avail from Foose)) and w/a 275 tire. You could max it and go for a 295 but nicely tucked a 285 would be perfect.

My how things change....I read my last post and also jouf69 's comment about never putting 20's on his car...He now owns my 19-20's and my car is back to a 9 second street car freak! Lol! His comment on being on the road summer of '07 is also funny as his car is still under major surgery!! How time flies!!! This feels like yesterday!

You reading this Alex? Wow....:cool:

Lead.

Wow 10". Cool. Thanks Leadfoot1! Didn't know that. Would a 5.25" bs work. Thats good to know because I wanted to tuck it in because I'm putting in Hotchkis 3" drop leaf springs. You think I'd have to curl the lip to get this done? I really love this look. Thanks again

On the backspace i would rather not pronounce myself as i don't have any measurements of your car.... (housing width etc)

I would also get the wheels and tires first and then decide on the amount of drop.... (i know its never low enough!)

Are you planning on moving in the leafs?(offset shackles)

If you need more help i'd be happy to guide you trough it. Just pm me.

Lead.

Nothing special here, a piece of string, a plum bob, a tape measure and a little time.:beers: