I don't want to be accused of vendor-bashing, so I won't provide personal comment on the images below.. Only factual comments.
The low product quality of "stressed" sub-standard reproduction parts will kill one of us some day and in my view, they should be illegal.

These are "J-nuts" that are used to secure Camaro front leaf hangers to the body of the car. Common-sense would tell us that their strength is important to keeping the car on the road and ourselves alive!

On the left are 2 "OER" packaged, no-name J nuts. On the right is 1 "CIP" branded J nut.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7008/misc028.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/misc028.jpg/) http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1489/cipb12012.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/cipb12012.jpg/)

UPC4-B1 of the 1969 Chevrolet Assy Manual suggests 20-30 ft/lbs of torque is required on each of the 6 bolts when fastening the spring hangers in place.
(I'm no engineer, but I know a bolt/nut is to be torqued to ~75% of it's maximum yield strength. This means that if a bolt were to go beyond it's maximum yield strength or "point of elasticity" (permanent deformation) at 40ft/lbs, it's maximum recommended torque capacity will be therefore rated at 30ft/lbs, or of course, 75% of it's maximum yield strength.)

Note the top left J nut. This has permanently deformed at approximately 20-25ft/lbs, in fact 5 out of the 6 OER packaged J-nuts did fail at that torque rating so it can be said that it wasn't just "a bad one". This also means that these particular J-nuts would have a torque rating of 15ft/lbs, or 1/2 of GM's recommended rating for this fastener's application.
The bottom left J-nut is unused.
Note that the "CIP" J-nut on the right has more material around the threaded area. The CIP J-nut is also much stronger if one were to try and pry it open even though design and material thicknesses are somewhat identical.
It comfortably torqued to 30ft/lbs and it's resistance at point indicated it would easily go 40ft/lbs.

Here are some better pics of the failed OER packaged, no-name J-nuts.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3822/failedoer1.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/failedoer1.jpg/) http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1671/failedoer2.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/failedoer2.jpg/) http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6896/failedoer3.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/failedoer3.jpg/)

Please do not use the J-nuts that come in OER packaging. Apart from the huge inconvenience factor of having to swap them for the higher quality part after installation, they are likely to fail when torquing or worse, when your running 120+ mph at the drag strip.

Pardon me for going on about it, but it's something I feel strongly about and believe some substandard components flooding the resto market are really putting our lives at risk for the sake of literally saving a dollar or two.

www.amkproducts.com , part #B12012. $5 will buy you a packet of 2.
They have the "CIP" stamping and torque to spec no problems.

Steve,
I dont think it's wrong to post warnings like this, but ... I think you are wrong in doing so if you have not contacted the seller and the manufacturer first. Most of this stuff is sourced from overseas and the people selling it don't have a clue about the quality.
That being said, have you checked your torque wrench lately ? 25 lb ft is really not a lot of torque. You can do that with a 1/4" drive ratchet. If you are using a large 1/2 " or even a 3/8" drive torque wrench, chances are it is not accurate at all at the real low end of the scale. This is just a thought because I do it all day and really have a hard time believing that 25lbs would pull that fastener through like that.
The other thing is, I wonder if it is the correct size fastener, or if the hole in the frame is too big for some reason. Those types of fasteners are designed to seat against the solid metal of the frame and should not be able to pull through the hole ?
As far as the flood of cheap parts .... we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Very Very Very few people are willing to pay for quality any more. I bet if those bolts cost $2 each, and somebody can make and sell them for $1.95, the majority of consumaers are going to save the five cents :( The bad part about it is that its getting to where you can't find good parts even if you are willing to pay for them.

Thanks Bill. I appreciate your comments.:)
Yes I contacted the seller who I won't mention, and let them know. Whether they choose to do anything about it is up to them, but I'll bet they don't.
The torque wrench I have is a high quality Australian made unit, and I believe accurate enough to destroy the 5/6 of these sub-standard fasteners and confidently torque 6/6 of another brand while on the same setting.
I was also surprised (not the word I really want to use), at the way the no-name fastener had stripped and deformed to destruction in it's intended application.
I would suggest buying one of these fasteners and trying it yourself if you have doubts. (They're only $1.39each.. Bargain!) I guarrantee you'll be as shocked and as disapointed as me.
The bolts I am using here are the correct GM OE #3831892, and they are in good condition.

I am really just concerned that people may install these and they'll fail at the worst possible time. These fasteners fatigue during normal installation and then a hard application of the brakes may pull out the front spring hanger out all together. Remove the 3 bolts only on one side and try it at 60mph. See what happens.

(25ft/lbs is still 300in/lbs. Too much for 1/4" drive stuff in my book)

Remove the 3 bolts only on one side and try it at 60mph. See what happens.
Disclaimer: NOT a test that is recommended! Do NOT try this at home! Team Camaro absolutely refuses responsibility for anyone dumb enough to dig there spring eyes into the pavement, violently launching their rear axle out the back of the car.

Note to anyone dumb enough to test this: If you loosen BOTH sides, the car is much more likely to remain sunny side up during this ill conceived maneuver!:clonk:

I didnt like the ones that came with my Hotchkis springs so I went to the local spring shop and bought 6 new beefy ones off him. I think they where $2 each with a black oxide grade 8 bolt.

Steve - For not wanting to vendor bash you need to rethink the approach you have taken in saying the information you are providing is factual and you are not interjection personal comment. You are speculating that someone will be killed because of these faulty parts. As well the torque spec's in the AIM are only for factory hardware and may not be correct for the aftermarket J-clips from OER. None of the remarks you made on those two points are based on fact.

I believe if the parts don't fail during installation you have no way of knowing they will fail when the car is being used. The weight of the car is on the suspension and there is spring tension holding the pocket to the frame. You would have to completely unload the rear suspension and all 3 bolts would have to have fallen out before the spring pocket separated from the floor pan. Even lateral g's from cornering would not likely pull the springs and pocket loose from the car. I in no way condone anyone trying it just to see though... I believe this because half the Camaros driving around with stock hardware have some or all of the welded nuts break away from the clips. Ask anyone that has had them break, the bolts just don't fall out and they are a bear to remove for replacing.

Here's a stock GM with the hex nut welded to it, check out the quality weld. The GM's are known to break at the weld. The bolts don't fall out, as I stated already. The one on the right is a Hotchkis which is stamped CIP. Notice the thickness difference in the two. The threaded barrel is stamped out of the clip so I'm sure it's stronger than the OER but most likely the OER are no weaker than the factory clips and nuts...

http://www.camaros.net/pnwcc/DjD/jnut1.JPG

If we look, we can always find a stronger part. Factory j-clips have worked for 40 years and I don't recall 60 minutes doing a segment on rear-ends falling out of camaros. I haven't even heard of a single failure causing any problem (doesn't mean it hasn't happened) at the track or on the street. This is the first I have ever heard of the OER clips failing but I have heard of the factory nuts breaking off many many times. In fact a local shop will not quote a price for installing sub-frame connectors and states the clip nuts create such a problem all sub-frame connector and spring work is by the hour up front...

Don't get me wrong I understand your concern to some degree and if I didn't I would have closed this thread down. Can I ask how you discovered the bad clips? Were these in use already and you went to remove the springs and found them this way? Did you just install them and they collapsed and you couldn't reach torque on the bolts as you tightened them? Did any of the bolts just let loose and fall out on the ground? None of the example shots you provided look like that happened...

Dealing with facts, I agree the clips have failed but as to what caused them to, over torque vs faulty part, it's really hard to tell without torque spec's for the parts from the manufacture. What the out come is if the parts are faulty might indeed be reason to enlighten others and that's why we are conversing here.

Thanks Dennis. :)
The clips were removed from the sealed (OER) packaging (labled as "Rear Spring Eye Bracket Nut") and inserted into position as per the AIM. Then the spring hangers were positioned in place and attempted to torque to spec when all but 1 of 6 failed to get anywhere near the specified 30ft/lbs. The minimum spec is 20ft/lbs where most had failed offering no "safety margin". (The 6th J-nut was not brought up to tension beyond hand tight as to remove and inspect)

Also if a fastener is not torqued to ~75% of it's yield strength -as the inferior clips wont allow, then how can that fastener be expected to securely retain the hanger, remain in place, and not losen over the next several thousand miles?
If you know about torquing rod bolts, you can't ignore this logic.
Look up any text book and see what the minimum torque preload needs to be for any 3/8-16 grade 5 bolt. Even if the manufacturer of these clips said torque to 15ft/lbs, then they are still providing an inferior/incorrect product for the application as use with the grade 5 fastener.

It would only take a hard application of the brakes to pull these hangers downward at a force almost equivalent of the rear braking effort itself. You don't need to be airborne or attempt to pull a G or 2 around a bend.

I accept that maybe my approach is not perfect, but I really wanted to warn people about these clips that I really feel are dangerous. They need to be indentified or my warning is pointless.
There is a very fine line between saying "that Brand makes crap" and "Exibit B is not up to spec". I am really trying my best to remain neutral and un-bias.

I too have had the welded nut break off the factory J-nuts, hence my reasoning to replace them in the first place.

I don't want to vendor bash at all. It's not my desire or intention.
In OER's defense, I have bought loads of their labled products and been very happy with the quality and fit. Unfortunately this particular part is a stressed chassis component and not just an emblem with a lousy appearance or something superficial.

If anyone has any doubts, buy the 2 products and try it yourselves.

Mine look like Dennis's pic!!

I have NO problem with them at ALL!!

They are punched spring quality, sheet steel with rolled threads that have been OQT'd!

TO ME!! One h-ll of a lot better that the cheap crap GM used even tho they used real nuts!!

pdq67

Just in case your not aware, both the good and bad clips I am talking about look just like Dennis' clip on the right. That is the style of clip sold today by everyone as far as I know.
Dennis has also mentioned that it has the "CIP" stamp on it indicating it is the better of the 2 types (in my experience) mentioned in this thread.

The clip on the left in Dennis' photo is what was standard on these cars when new (most were actually a square nut), and as we have discussed, the nuts tend break off the actual clip. As far as their torque capacity, they have no problem if the nuts stay intact.

If you have a look at your clips that you've had no problems with, I'll be quite sure it has a CIP stamp on it. If it doesn't, then I doubt you'll be able to pry it open with your fingers AT ALL.
That's what I noticed also about the inferior clips, is that prying them open was really quite easy. (-Possibly just sheet steel like you say.)
:beers:

I need to replace mine. Does anyone know where can you purchase the CIP clips and there cost?

Thanks

If a product requires a different installation procedure vs. the OEM specification then it should be provided. The aftermarket parts do not have any supplied instructions, so it should be expected that that part can be installed according to the OEM specifications.

I too have had the exact same problem as shown above with the OER parts.

There's also more to it than just accepting a specification from a supplier that may not have the expertise to correctly understand the ramifications of changing the OEM specification. When each fastener is properly installed according to the OEM specifications there is an expected clamping force that holds the bolted components together. Under light usage a lower clamping force might not result in failure, but if the applied load exceeds the clamping force a significantly reduced bolt fatigue life will result.

Also, in a bolted joint using a standard nut the failure mode due to excessive applied torque is usually not nut failure. Failure will usually occur in the bolt underhead, at the shank-thread interface, or at the thread just under the nut.

Besides, why use a fastener in a critical application that is significantly weaker than the OEM part?

BlackSS69 or anyone else who would like to know where to purchase the "CIP" clips, you will need to PM me for a supplier and part number.

Because I am trying very hard to remain un-biased, I won't use this thread for any form of promotion.
I will only privately forward details of the superior part in the name of safety.:thumbsup:

Thanks for posting Carl. In a silly way, I am glad I am not the only one with this issue.

..and thanks to the moderators for leaving this thread visible, even though my approach may not have been the best.:)

I was pleased to see this topic as I just installed my rear springs on my 69. I too was supprised to see this type of j-nut in my package from a vendor, and I also thought they might be not as strong as the originals I took off. In torquing mine to 35 ftlbs., they, (bolts) began spinning. I never reached 35 ftlbs. Glad I saved my old ones, as they are what's on the car.

IMHO, the j-nuts were substandard for this application.

I'm not contacting the vendor, or gonna bash anyone. Just gonna use my common sense while rebuilding my car.

Rut :cool:

I just wanted to say that this is an excellent way of voicing an opinion. I congratulate all involved for making clear consice arguments and not using 4 letter words. This kind of discussion is what makes better products for all of us out there with a love of 1st gen cars

I need to replace mine. Does anyone know where can you purchase the CIP clips and there cost?

Thanks

Any Hotchkis distributor should be able to get them and if you have a spring shop in town they should have them or something equilivant.

Steve if you know a company that sells the CIP hardware you can post who it is as it pertains to teh context of this thread. Now if you started a new thread offering the clips for sale that would be another story.

I was pleased to see this topic as I just installed my rear springs on my 69. I too was supprised to see this type of j-nut in my package from a vendor, and I also thought they might be not as strong as the originals I took off. In torquing mine to 35 ftlbs., they, (bolts) began spinning. I never reached 35 ftlbs. Glad I saved my old ones, as they are what's on the car.

IMHO, the j-nuts were substandard for this application.

I'm not contacting the vendor, or gonna bash anyone. Just gonna use my common sense while rebuilding my car.

Rut :cool:

Not going to dispute the quality of the OER clips but I would like to point out by factory spec's you were over torquing at 35 ft lbs...

If a product requires a different installation procedure vs. the OEM specification then it should be provided. The aftermarket parts do not have any supplied instructions, so it should be expected that that part can be installed according to the OEM specifications.

I too have had the exact same problem as shown above with the OER parts.

There's also more to it than just accepting a specification from a supplier that may not have the expertise to correctly understand the ramifications of changing the OEM specification. When each fastener is properly installed according to the OEM specifications there is an expected clamping force that holds the bolted components together. Under light usage a lower clamping force might not result in failure, but if the applied load exceeds the clamping force a significantly reduced bolt fatigue life will result.

Also, in a bolted joint using a standard nut the failure mode due to excessive applied torque is usually not nut failure. Failure will usually occur in the bolt underhead, at the shank-thread interface, or at the thread just under the nut.

Besides, why use a fastener in a critical application that is significantly weaker than the OEM part?

Hi Carl - It's been a while, how have you been? As usual you add some great input. I'm not trying to come off as defending the OER clips but what I have seen is they are sold in sets with more of a screw than a bolt with a course thread compared to what factory bolts or for example the bolt in my picture above which is from the CIP clip. Note that it thread matches the orig equipment clip I have it threaded into in that pic.

Excuse the poor image quality but this shows what I believe are just like, if not OER clips and bolts. This is why I suggested the torque spec's might not be the same as the factory.

http://www.ss396.com/mm5/graphics/00000007/BLS-1130.jpg


Just a guess but I imagine most of these get installed without the benefit of a torque wrench... You are right though, if the product does require a different fastening torque the information should be supplied.

I looked at the book last night and believe it was 20-30 ft lbs on these as has been quoted. That's not all that much to begin with but for the factory 20 ft lbs must have met the clamping force requirements. I know Steve reports his failing around 15 ft lbs and Rut seems to indicate he got closer to 35 ft lbs when his failed.

From that I think the part is most likely to be on par with the factory supplied in function. For someone doing a spiral shock and bias ply tire restoration they would be fine. For someone building a street strip monster or a "G" machine then go with something better. I know Hotchkis supplies the CIP hardware with their spring kits, I figure that says a little something.

Hey Dennis.

If memory serves the OEM bolts are G5. The maximum recommended dry torque for a G5 3/8"-16 bolt is 31 ft-lbs. This installation assumes no plating or thread lubricant. Black oxide coatings do not offer any changes to the torque specifications. Given this the fastener should be at 70% yield strength with a clamping force of 4,900 lbs.

The problem as I see it is that the OER part does not allow a sufficient safety margin. Given that we are gearheads, we're likely going to shoot for the upper end of the torque tolerance range. How close to failure is the OER J-nut at 30 ft-lbs?

If the OEM specification calls out for some type of thread lubricant, it gets worse for the OER part. It's failure mode is not at the thread, it's on the body of the J-nut. Thread lubricant (oil) will cause the J-nut body to fail with an applied torque 20% lower than without any lubricant. Mine failed before 30 ft-lbs using thread lubricant (Bostik Never Seez), and I use a torque wrench that is calibrated. I agree it's not according to specifications using anti-seize, but every fastener on the car gets lubricated before installation. If it fails, to me that says there is not enough safety margin. Yeah, I'm getting really anal....

Dennis, you are correct that the right bolt must be used with the extended body J-nut. For a bolt-nut arrangement, rule of thumb is for the full diameter of the bolt to extend beyond the nut by at least 1/8". This is not as important for solid nuts since their rigid design allows for most of the fastener tension to be applied to the first 2-3 threads. However, the extended body sheet metal J-nut relies on full thread engagement.

I too once ordered the 'sub-standard' J-clips,..sent them back to my vendor in Athens, GA.

The good news is, when you hit a bump, the ends of the leaf spring are pushed 'up' so the strenght of the threads of the J-clips are not challenged.

But on hard braking they would be.

Agree,..find something more worthy.

Thanks again Dennis.
I'm sure there are others who sell the "CIP" J-nuts.. I ordered mine through www.amkproducts.com. catalog (pg57) part # B12012. $5 will buy you a packet of 2.
Another friend said he got his through Rick's 1st Gen, so they must be a supplier too.
As customers, we will need to specify the "CIP" branded clip with the vendors when ordering.

FYI: I just got a variety of CIP clips at Sears' hardware. I didn't know I was buying such high quality. :)

I don't think the "CIP" are anything outstanding.. They're just how they should be in the first place. You know, like a glass of water that's drinkable.
The others are just very bad in comparison. :)

Not going to dispute the quality of the OER clips but I would like to point out by factory spec's you were over torquing at 35 ft lbs...

I made a mistake in what I said I torque'd these bolts to. I realized this after you pointing this out to me, and checking my notes in the barn. I actually had my wrench set to 25ftlbs. Between the recomended torque of 20-30 ftlbs. The bolt spun in the j-clip as reported in my earlier post, before I reached 25 ftlbs. I had misquoted, and was relying on my memory.

It's been said, by my wife mostly, that my memory is the second shortest thing I have. This would be further proof of that.

Rut :cool:

Hi All,
You've let the cat amongst the pigions! If I can try and be positve about this, the AMK products are very very good. I purchased a few suspensions kits which contained the type of fasteners Steve seems to be concerned about. I also purchased the complete chassis kit from AMK. The AMK product was visually superior and often made of what seemed to me, the correct metals rather than the other which seemed more generic.

In my experiance the AMK product is worth spending the money on in regards to saftey and originality

My 2C

Here's some good news.. :)

I just received an email from the company who supplied my inferior j-nuts.
"...however we have discontinued the item based on your feedback."

I hope they're telling the truth and not just blowing smoke..

I just got my clip nuts from ground up and the torque spec said 20-30 ftlbs according to the chevy assembly manual.
the nuts stripped out at 20 ftlbs!
They dont even seem to be hardend?
seem to be more lke body panel clip nuts?
Someone surely can get killed using inferior chinese garbage parts.
I would have gladly paid 3 bucks a piece for a better clip nut.
I surely hope ground up doesnt know anything about this problem or else they would take customer saftey before profits im sure.
Ill be calling ground up on monday and talking to Ken (owner) To shed some light on this subject.
No im not vendor bashing!
Im just bringing to light a defective inferior part that we should be all aware of.
Gee i wish i could find a vendor that had the Original clip nuts.

If I remember right from my old Machine Design class, the area of three threads on a UNC bolt will equal bolt failure area in tension at a thread root..

Do the math and check me..

pdq67

Dawg, the 40ft/lb is too much anyway. 20-30ft/lb is the factory spec, but yours should have still torqued to 35-40ft/lb without failure.
Did those clips have the "CIP" embossed onto them? They're the ones you need.
Elewhere in this thread, I have posted an alternative supplier and part their number. :thumbsup:

opps sorry made a mistake on the torque specs
spec is 20-30 ftlbs
they dont have the CIP on them.
just plain jane clips made out of mild sheet steel.
I might have found a supplier of the clip nuts with the grade8 nut attached ill post any info when it becomes available.

Someone said they didn't like the clips that came from Hotchkis.
I didn't have any problem with them at all, and I know I over-torqued a couple of them initially.
Granted, the car hasn't been driven, but I like the meatiness of the clip and the extra long length of the threaded portion.

I can't prove it, but believe that Hotchkis has improved the clips in the last year or so. I rebuilt the suspension in my '69 about three years ago and the clips were unusable. I couldn't get half of them to even start threading and stripped the few that I could get started. A year later I redid my wife's suspension and the clips were much heavier, fit into the frame, threaded perfectly and tourqed without incident.

I found some clips at tru value hardware (ACE hardware)
they are grade 5 and can be torqued up to 60 ftlbs.
$1.16 each
they are hardened and thicker.
only thing is the holes they go in need a bit of die grinding because they are flatter and a bit wider.

Most of this stuff is sourced from overseas and the people selling it don't have a clue about the quality.


Unfortunately is is all to true. And personally, I'm thankful to boards like this and people like Steve to take the time and let us know of issues like these.

Not more then an hour after reading this thread I was putting my front spoiler back on that I bought from OER 2-3 years and ago and low and behold it has the exact same j-clips but they are the higher quality ones with the CIP stamp on them. For a spoiler! Go figure...

I just got done with my rear suspension hotchkis front and rear with sway bars, shocks ,springs ,and all related hardware,I analize things to no end so was going to use my stock j clips cleaned painted and kit came with new ones I beleave thay were stamped CIP, so analizing to no end I used the new ones ,I snuged all 6 bolts but have not torqued them yet,as I wanted the weight of the car sitting on rear suspen. for a while before torqueing all bolts related to the rear suspen.

The major company that fabing all the repro. parts I got a new fuel tank and strap kit and though here I am analizing again thats why I did'nt use my stock straps as I though after 38 yrs get new ,well bending molding to fit support new tank was a nightmare,and the sheet metal screws snaped when screwing into strap ( same thing happened to the guys on chop cut rebuild could'nt beleave it )so used them (straps)now I am wondering if I should of stayed with the stock ones this sounds like using these parts is going backwards on the project as I am tring to make foward progress,I am some what sick to stomach,as this is because I analize and think to much all self inflicted.I am going to call hotchkis and have them verify CIP or ????.

I just talked to Drew Oliver at hotchkis tech dept. and these clips stamped CIP are the one's thay supply and bought from (the same vendor ) as the ones used on G M vechicals so this eased my mind ,he has heard of NO failure's to date and thay sell LOT's of suspen. kits...

I finally found that rear suspension clunk. I had the inferior clip nuts and they had loosened up. 1 of the 3 was ready to fall out, and the other 2 wouldn't hold any more than 10 ftlbs pf torque.

I went to install my repro's and they wouldn't fit in the little hole were too tall and I didn't wanna make hole bigger so scrounged up set originals that were still in one piece put them in. I need see which ones they were.

I just installed the new clips from my vendor down in athens georgia. They assured me they had changed vendors since I bought the springs 2 years ago. The new ones said cip wright on them and installed easily. I noticed the angeld edge that helps it slide over the sheet metal ridge is smoother and the clips just popped wright in without distorting and torqued fine. Well worth the money and effort.

I'm glad I posted this thread and hope that the info here has been useful.
It sounds like it has been. Good to hear. :D

Just wanted to say I experienced the same failures with these cheap replacement clip nuts. I found the original GM ones were the best and cleaned up and re-used as many of these as possible.

its better to be safe than sorry guys!
no harm in bashing a bad product if it saves lives.
if a vendor whats to make a killing they should make some replacement clipnuts that work.

When I needed these clips, I took the original part number I found in the assembly manual to a GM dealer, and they were able to order them for me. I got 10 clips for under 15 dollars. I went this route after the clips I purchased from a vendor would not hold the required torque specification. I'm sorry to say, that was 4 year ago. Apparently, this issue is still out there.

Here's the clips:
McMaster-Carr, www.mcmaster.com
3/8"-16 (0.050"-0.200") (0.750") (25) (94850A170) $11.75
Size/thd [Panel thkness] [Grip depth] [per pkg.] [Part number] [Price/pkg.]

has any one tried an orig bolt in a repop clip. I had gm clips fail with standard bolts and when i used the gm bolts that i had dug up they were fine. I also used gm bolts in repop clips with no prob. I was led to think that the threads were just a bit deeper on the pointed tip gm bolt and the regular grade 5s had a bit shallower thread. This is just what i observed on 2 of the cars i changed rears in. I will only use a "gm" orig bolt when doing a rear. Just my 2 cents

Here's the clips:
McMaster-Carr, www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com)
3/8"-16 (0.050"-0.200") (0.750") (25) (94850A170) $11.75
Size/thd [Panel thkness] [Grip depth] [per pkg.] [Part number] [Price/pkg.]


Have you used these ?

Have you used these ?No, I have not.

Ok, enough is enough....no more secrets....... someone please post links to places where the top quality j nuts can be purchased.

I need to buy a set for my upcoming spring replacement.


Thanks in advance :):cool:

has any one tried an orig bolt in a repop clip. I had gm clips fail with standard bolts and when i used the gm bolts that i had dug up they were fine. I also used gm bolts in repop clips with no prob. I was led to think that the threads were just a bit deeper on the pointed tip gm bolt and the regular grade 5s had a bit shallower thread. This is just what i observed on 2 of the cars i changed rears in. I will only use a "gm" orig bolt when doing a rear. Just my 2 cents


Yes, me.. The very first post of this thread is junk-repro clips and original fasteners in good condition. ..that failed. ;)

If your looking to use OE J-nuts, you might want to get a flea market 9/16 box end wrench, measure the distance from the slot to the bolt center, and apply heat to the wrench stem and bend it 90*.

This will allow you to hold the nut with a box end and save the nut from spinning on the clip. Fish the new wrench through the slot and set the box end over the nut to hold. Worked very well for me, but now I can't find the wrench.

www.mcmaster.com does sell a multiple thread Cage clip-on nut, J-style, but the unknown is the throat depth as the one in their catalog has 9/16 inch of depth. I don't know if this will work. Their part number is 90679A031, 25/pkg at $11.50 per pkg. Take a look at it.

ACE hardware has them in grade 5 and some in a grade 8
(they are slightly different so a little mod work is nessesary on the opening of the torque box.
I used them after grinding the raised metal where the clip goes and torqued to 90 ft lbs.
OE is torqued to around 40 ft/lbs

Ok, From a couple McMaster-Carr part numbers posted here, i have made an inquiry as to if they can supply me with samples of the following.

94850A170
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/94850A170.gif

90679A031
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/90679A031.gif

If i get them i'll post the results as to quality.

Don't forget another supplier option is www.amkproducts.com , part #B12012. $5 will buy you a packet of 2.
They have the "CIP" stamping and torque to spec no problems. :thumbsup:

Download their catalog. Heaps of hard to find OE fasteners.:D

I installed a full hotchkis tvs system in my car in the late fall and the clips that came with mine seemed very heavy duty,had no problem torqing them to specs.-Harvey

94850A170
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/94850A170.gif

90679A031
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/90679A031.gif

Samples recieved

A quick update:

I received them from McMaster-Carr today. (They actually sent me a 25 count box of each for free)
The first one i pictured ( 94850A170 ) is manufactured from 18 gage (.048" - .050") spring steel and seems VERY heavy duty. I cannot bend it out of shape by prying with a screwdriver. Holds its shape very well. Standard 3/8-16 bolt threads in nicely with no thread slop.
I pushed it over a piece of 10 gage steel with a corresponding hole, clamped the whole assembly in a vise, and ran a bolt into it with a 12" Adjustable wrench until it was as tight as i could manage. It never failed. Once i loosened the bolt a few turns i could thread it out with my fingers.
In my opinion these are pretty good alternatives to the aforementioned CIP nuts, and are only $11.75 per 25 count box. (These have PAL stamped in them)

The other nut ( 90679A031 ) has a nice standard sized hex nut captured ( not welded) in the housing, but the housing itself is only .025" spring steel. This one doesn't inspire much confidence for the leaf spring cup attachment points, and i'm not going to bother with the same kind of test. I suspect it's not meant for the applications the heavier j nut will handle. (FYI: these are $12.60 per 25 count box)

Well, there's my contribution to this somewhat arguably important topic. If anyone wants a 6 piece set of the heavy duty j nuts let me know. I'll have about 3 extra sets once i use what i need for my upcoming leaf spring R & R.

:cool:

This might explain why when I recently changed my springs out with the Hotchkis units that i had to break 5 spot welds between the chassis and the brackets that the previous owner had done in addition to the use of the J nuts. Good added protection.

the one's you get from your vendor that every one has are the ching chang parts and they will strip out very easly. I've had then do it, and heard the clink clink under the car, the cup gets loose and with a 4 speed even more there not enough thread on them if you look at the GM j clip that djd shows you'll see there is a NUT on the top and when tightend down its fine not the cone threads j nuts. the shifter bolts are the same they will break to.

the one's you get from your vendor that every one has are the ching chang parts and they will strip out very easly. I've had then do it, and heard the clink clink under the car, the cup gets loose and with a 4 speed even more there not enough thread on them if you look at the GM j clip that djd shows you'll see there is a NUT on the top and when tightend down its fine not the cone threads j nuts. the shifter bolts are the same they will break to.

Who are you writing this response to ?

I received them from McMaster-Carr today. (They actually sent me a 25 count box of each for free)


Well, there's my contribution to this somewhat arguably important topic. If anyone wants a 6 piece set of the heavy duty j nuts let me know. I'll have about 3 extra sets once i use what i need for my upcoming leaf spring R & R.

:cool:Thanks, Doug for the critique. McMaster-Carr does send engineering samples for future sells.

I figure a pkg of 25 for $12 is well spent. :thumbsup:

OK,

I need to know something simple.
These "J" nuts, are they what is holding my entire leaf spring onto my car?

If so, that seems not strong enough to me.

Can someone clear that up for me so I can better understand this thread?

The front of the leafs are mounted to brackets that are fastened to the floorpan reinforcement using 3 x 3/8" bolts on each side.
These 3 bolts screw into 3 x J nuts that are clipped in place.

The cheap junk J nuts are very weak and will usually fail by just attempting to torque them to the GM spec, which is 20-30ft/lbs.
If they don't completely fail while torquing, they would have yielded and permanently deformed, providing little or no fatigue resistance for the bolts that are screwed into them. In a short period of time, the threads in the J nuts will continue to permanently distort until they fail and the bolts will pull out of the threads when a load is placed on them, or simply begin to unscrew during vehicle use.
The good J nuts can be indentified with a "CIP" stampting on them, and have no reliability/quality issues. They are also made of a notably heavier and stronger material.
There are several posts within this thread that mention suppliers.

Parts #1 in this diagram are the J nuts talked about in this thread. There are 3 of them on each side.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5216/misc153yv1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Proving all 6 of the 3/8" bolts have a strong anchor (quality J nuts) and torqued to specification, they will provide considerable tensile strength.
A grade 5 bolt has 120,000psi of tensile strength. A 3/8" bolt's cross section at the thread root is roughly a 1/4" or 0.05sq inches. 120,000 x 0.05 = 6,000. That's 6,000lbs per bolt, or 36,000lbs for all 6. Your Camaro only weighs about 3,600lbs remember!
Even the higher quality J nuts will fail before a 6000lb load can be achieved, but you get the idea of strength. We're still talking a few thousand pounds of load. ..each!

Are the spring clips sold by rick's the CIP type or the better J clips?thanks Steve

Does rick's sell a good quality J nut CIP?

My friend loaned me 6 of his that were the CIP type, and he said he got them from Rick's, so I'm pretty sure they do.
You might just want to confirm with them to make sure they still supply them .:thumbsup:

I'm living this issue right now.
When replacing my 12 bolt with a Moser 12 bolt, about 6 mos ago, I replaced my clip nuts with some cheezy ones I bought from an otherwise reputable source who I have bought a lot of hardware items from in the past with no complaints. I did question their quality before installing them, but figured the OER logo'd bag and the reputation of the source I bought these from were reliable, so I installed them. this was just before I saw this string for the first time.

As I was torqueing one on the passenger side, I did feel it let go before I even reached 20ftlb. After that, I just used my 3/8 rachet and made sure the rest were tight and left the one that spun alone figuring I'll be replacing my rear suspension with a Q-link in the near future and thinking it should be OK until then.

This past weekend, as I was driving down the I5 freeway I heard a squeeking noise from under the car. As I let off in gear and started slowing to get off to my exit, I heard an odd plunk and then something bounced under the car and under my right rear tire then out. I few seconds later, as I applied the brakes, I heard it happen on the drivers side.

The car seemed to be driving fine, so I nursed it home and then took a look. On the passenger side, one of the forward spring bolts (the one that failed during torque) was gone and the second visible one was very loose....a few turns from falling out. I didn't jack the car up to see if the third one that is in the recess was still there. On the drivers side, one of the visible bolts there was also gone.

I've ordered a new CIP set from Ricks and will be inspecting the others when I remove them. I'll let you know what I find out.

Steve, This post couldn't have come @ a better time. I was doing a few pm checks on my '68 & when I checked those 6 bolts, & 2 of them were stripped & I knew I neeeded to replace them but wasn't sure how. Low & behold the first post told me the clips to get & in the next pgs. it told me how to install them.
Thanks so much, 68C

Thanks. Glad to be of help 68C :thumbsup:

Follow up on my issue....
I dropped the front of the springs last week and removed the clip nuts I used. All threads in the clip nuts were OK and the nuts fully in tact so I switched focus to the 3/8 bolts. The ones that came with the hardware kit I bought are the kind with the pointy threaded tip....body bolts with a captive spring washer designed to start threading at an angle.

As I looked at the bolt length and then took the overall stack up in to consideration, the conclusion I came to is that with the spring clip, shackle and floor pan all to go through, the bolt only gets a thread or two started before you have to torque it and due to the tappered end which just starts to reach the top threads (as installed) of the clip nut, will never achieve a full 4 threads of engagement before bottoming. So with only 2 threads engaged, the bolts strip before specified torque can be achieved, and if they make it beyond that point, they strip or back out later like mine did. The one I threaded out by hand had two stripped threads and was ready to fall out when I removed it.

Driver side only had one bolt tight and passenger side was about to lose its last bolt. I'm thanking God that I heard the hardware dropping off my car.

I reused the clip nuts and bought some longer G8 3/8 bolts with flat and lock washers. Installed it all and torqued to 25 ft lb.

Tim

FYI - I just got my Hotchis rear springs 2 weeks ago. The clip nuts they supplied are GM. I suppose I oughta open the bag and look at them. I didn't swap out my originals as they seemed good to go, and torqued up just fine.

The full width of the threads of the OE bolts should be all the way through the clip nuts before beginning to clamp. My OE bolts have about 1-1/4" of thread under the conical washers and are fully engaged in the J-nut's thread before torquing.
Also, if you use lock washers instead, make sure they are seated on a large OD flat washer, otherwise the locking tab will simply drop into the elongated hole in the spring bracket/s and become useless.
The pointed portion of these bolts are not to begin threading at an angle. They will cross-thread like any other bolt. They are to help begin threading when there is a misalignment in panels. They still must be at 90 degrees to the nut.

B-11963 might be a tad long at 1-1/2" but are otherwise identical. $8 buys 4 through www.amkproducts.com :thumbsup:

94850A170
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/94850A170.gif

90679A031
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/90679A031.gif

Samples recieved

A quick update:

I received them from McMaster-Carr today. (They actually sent me a 25 count box of each for free)
The first one i pictured ( 94850A170 ) is manufactured from 18 gage (.048" - .050") spring steel and seems VERY heavy duty. I cannot bend it out of shape by prying with a screwdriver. Holds its shape very well. Standard 3/8-16 bolt threads in nicely with no thread slop.
I pushed it over a piece of 10 gage steel with a corresponding hole, clamped the whole assembly in a vise, and ran a bolt into it with a 12" Adjustable wrench until it was as tight as i could manage. It never failed. Once i loosened the bolt a few turns i could thread it out with my fingers.
In my opinion these are pretty good alternatives to the aforementioned CIP nuts, and are only $11.75 per 25 count box. (These have PAL stamped in them)

The other nut ( 90679A031 ) has a nice standard sized hex nut captured ( not welded) in the housing, but the housing itself is only .025" spring steel. This one doesn't inspire much confidence for the leaf spring cup attachment points, and i'm not going to bother with the same kind of test. I suspect it's not meant for the applications the heavier j nut will handle. (FYI: these are $12.60 per 25 count box)

Well, there's my contribution to this somewhat arguably important topic. If anyone wants a 6 piece set of the heavy duty j nuts let me know. I'll have about 3 extra sets once i use what i need for my upcoming leaf spring R & R.

:cool:
I could use a set of (6) of these heavy duty clips, since I am in the process of changing my multi leaf springs on my 68' RS/SS and didn't buy replacements to put in. I do have a set of new bolts that I bought from Rick's that I can use with these new clips. Please e-mail me and we can figure out how I can get them.
Thanks,
Mark
lindsmar@comcast.net

PM and Email sent

I could use a set of (6) of these heavy duty clips, since I am in the process of changing my multi leaf springs on my 68' RS/SS and didn't buy replacements to put in. I do have a set of new bolts that I bought from Rick's that I can use with these new clips. Please e-mail me and we can figure out how I can get them.
Thanks,
Mark
lindsmar@comcast.net

Thanks Doug for sending me the set of heavy duty j-clips. It is very refreshing to find such helpfull people in this day and age. I will post my findings on these j-clips when I finish the install of the leaf springs.

Mark

You may need longer bolts and use antiseize on the threads. You'll appreciate it later.

94850A170
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/94850A170.gif

90679A031
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s102/qwertyuioplkj_2007/90679A031.gif

Samples recieved

A quick update:

I received them from McMaster-Carr today. (They actually sent me a 25 count box of each for free)
The first one i pictured ( 94850A170 ) is manufactured from 18 gage (.048" - .050") spring steel and seems VERY heavy duty. I cannot bend it out of shape by prying with a screwdriver. Holds its shape very well. Standard 3/8-16 bolt threads in nicely with no thread slop.
I pushed it over a piece of 10 gage steel with a corresponding hole, clamped the whole assembly in a vise, and ran a bolt into it with a 12" Adjustable wrench until it was as tight as i could manage. It never failed. Once i loosened the bolt a few turns i could thread it out with my fingers.
In my opinion these are pretty good alternatives to the aforementioned CIP nuts, and are only $11.75 per 25 count box. (These have PAL stamped in them)

The other nut ( 90679A031 ) has a nice standard sized hex nut captured ( not welded) in the housing, but the housing itself is only .025" spring steel. This one doesn't inspire much confidence for the leaf spring cup attachment points, and i'm not going to bother with the same kind of test. I suspect it's not meant for the applications the heavier j nut will handle. (FYI: these are $12.60 per 25 count box)

Well, there's my contribution to this somewhat arguably important topic. If anyone wants a 6 piece set of the heavy duty j nuts let me know. I'll have about 3 extra sets once i use what i need for my upcoming leaf spring R & R.

:cool:
I installed the clips (94850A170) today and had no problem tightening then to factory specs. These clips are very heavy duty and seem to be a great substitute to the originals. I would highly recommend these clips to anyone who wants to use them in place of the factory ones.
Thanks again Doug for sending me these clips to use on my 68' leaf spring install.
Mark

I installed the clips (94850A170) today and had no problem tightening then to factory specs. These clips are very heavy duty and seem to be a great substitute to the originals. I would highly recommend these clips to anyone who wants to use them in place of the factory ones.
Thanks again Doug for sending me these clips to use on my 68' leaf spring install.
Mark

No problem. It was my pleasure to help you out.

:)

Hey me too!-

I bought the install kit for my springs from a well regarded spring manufacturer back in Michigan. The clip nuts were absolute junk - every one split / stripped at less that 20 ft-lbf. I contacted Mike and he sent 6 new ones without asking (he also said "they sell thousands of these clips and has never heard of any problems at all") :mad:. They were marginally better that what I had but still junk. I bought the CIP logo'd ones reference in this thread -they installed perfectly and torqued to 25 ft-lbf -no problem. I feel much better about putting these clips in the Camaro.

Concerning the CIP clips, the barrel is much thicker and the steel seems to be more robust - read as properly heat treated. The threads are well formed and just look better.

Many thanks to Blackout - good catch

Beesker

Hi

Do the Car Show judges deduct points for having sheet metal nuts vs square welded nuts that the cars were built with?

Thanks Gary

There are very few places on the car that have J/U nuts that are exposed and/or visible. -especially in the location of mounting the rear leaf spring brackets.

If you're getting real fussy about it, hex nuts were used pre '72, and square nuts, post '72.

There's not a lot of choice unless you have originals though.
All the 3/8-16 nuts currently available today that I am aware of are formed threads.
The only currently available J/U nuts that actually have nuts welded to them are GM 3784845, and they are 5/16-18. These are www.amkproducts.com B-10616 pre, and B-11517 post '72.

Thanks for the reply.

You're right--69 = welded hex. I looked in my tool box and have one used original welded hex.

I bracket raced a 69 camaro and these J nuts are something I obsessed about.

I ordered 3892755 GM years ago but can't remember which style welded nut was sent --They are on car now.

Also have the CIP nuts I think I got from Ricks in the '90s

Personally, I prefer the newer formed nuts.
With the nut-clips, make sure you have a liberal amount of anti-sieze on your threads. If they rust, good chance the nut will break off the clip when you try to unscrew, and then you'll have fun getting them off! ;)

Hi Steve,

I know I missed the train along time ago but I managed to get hold of some genuine GM ones :) ... So glad I did!

most fast cars [slicks or sticky tires ]should drill a hole thru the spring perch and floor of car and ad a bolt with big washer on floor side of car..most nhra stockers do this.big hp can move and break the stock 3 clips.i did this to mine..BB and a jerico,i feel better about dumping the clutch....

Good info on this thread. However, with so many cars getting new floors as part of a resto, why doesn't anyone just weld new grade 8 nuts inside the spring hangers when the floor is out? A little anti-sieze during assembly and problem solved forever, which is the way GM should have done it.

This is what I was thinking when I pulled the rear in my 68 last w/e and had to cut the floor because the nuts broke off 4 of the 6 clips....

Probably because nuts distort when you weld them, and if the welds break (high probability with high tensile being welded to low tensile), then you'll be in the same boat as broken OE J-nuts with bolts you can't remove.

..and how would you replace a stripped or cross-threaded nut if it was welded in place?

I think the J-nuts are the best solution so long as they're a quality part.

Great topic - I found the greater quality nuts at my local Ace Hardware store and noticed that the local Sears Hardware Store also carried them - They worked out great also !!!!

After reading this thread I finally had to go out in the garage and unpack the Hotchkis 3 leaf springs I got years ago and am going to install soon and I am pleased to see they provide CIP clips

Thanks for the information Steve. It helps everyone to learn from others experiences. Thats one of the main reason I come to this site. Even if you didnt do this in a labortory or back it up with road tests. I still think this is useful information that everyone that is replacing the j-nuts on their cars can use.:)

Thank you.. My pleasure. :)

My friend loaned me 6 of his that were the CIP type, and he said he got them from Rick's, so I'm pretty sure they do.
You might just want to confirm with them to make sure they still supply them .:thumbsup:


Thought I'd update this thread since I just bought some j-nuts from Rick's. They are not stamped CIP and Rick's website says "Better Than Imported Reproductions".

I ordered them after wondering if the j-nuts in my $90 leaf spring install kit from D&R Classic were like the ones everyone says are bad. Well, they are much better than the ones that I just received.

The ones from Rick's are on the left. Notice the stress marks, the cut ears, and the thin, rough threaded portion. The ones on the right came with my leaf install kit.

*note to mods: This is not intended to be vendor bashing. It is alerting those who need j-nuts that Rick's apparently no longer carries the CIP ones that they once did.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3576/3817131013_a95d7dc390.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2653/3817940238_5d2156d3bf.jpg

Be careful guy's doing the leaf spring update ,I used and confirmed from Hotchkis tech Drew Oliver a few yrs ago when I did my TVS kit ,he stated to me that they used the same vendor as GM use's ...I have noticed so much substandard auto parts out there ,life's depend on them ,make sure you get the best part you can ,and have many Happy motoring days ahead

Thanks Steiner..;)
Just refreshing this other supplier option as well..

Don't forget another supplier option is www.amkproducts.com , part #B12012. $5 will buy you a packet of 2.
They have the "CIP" stamping and torque to spec no problems. :thumbsup:

Download their catalog. Heaps of hard to find OE fasteners.:D

Also, to anyone reading this thread from the beginning, Sorry about the opening post where the pictures are no longer visible.

I don't know why and I am now unable to edit the post after this amount of time in order to fix those picture links.

(Imageshack. :angry:)

Repost of opening post with reposted pictures..
I still get PM comment regarding this topic and thought it important to update the lost images. Thanks everyone. ;)

*************************************************

I don't want to be acused of vendor-bashing, so I won't provide personal comment on the images below.. Only factual comments.
The low product quality of "stressed" sub-standard reproduction parts will kill one of us some day and in my view, they should be illegal.

These are "J-nuts" that are used to secure Camaro front leaf hangers to the body of the car. Common-sense would tell us that their strength is important to keeping the car on the road and ourselves alive!

On the left are 2 "OER" packaged, no-name J nuts. On the right is 1 "CIP" branded J nut.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7008/misc028.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/misc028.jpg/) http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1489/cipb12012.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/cipb12012.jpg/)

UPC4-B1 of the 1969 Chevrolet Assy Manual suggests 20-30 ft/lbs of torque is required on each of the 6 bolts when fastening the spring hangers in place.
(I'm no engineer, but I know a bolt/nut is to be torqued to ~75% of it's maximum yield strength. This means that if a bolt were to go beyond it's maximum yield strength or "point of elasticity" (permanent deformation) at 40ft/lbs, it's maximum recomended torque capacity will be therefore rated at 30ft/lbs, or of course, 75% of it's maximum yield strength.)

Note the top left J nut. This has permantly deformed at approximately 20-25ft/lbs, in fact 5 out of the 6 OER packaged J-nuts did fail at that torque rating so it can be said that it wasn't just "a bad one". This also means that these particular J-nuts would have a torque rating of 15ft/lbs, or 1/2 of GM's recomended rating for this fastener's application.
The bottom left J-nut is unused.
Note that the "CIP" J-nut on the right has more material around the threaded area. The CIP J-nut is also much stronger if one were to try and pry it open even though design and material thicknesses are somewhat identical.
It comfortably torqued to 30ft/lbs and it's resistance at point indicated it would easily go 40ft/lbs.

Here are some better pics of the failed OER packaged, no-name J-nuts.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3822/failedoer1.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/failedoer1.jpg/) http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1671/failedoer2.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/failedoer2.jpg/) http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6896/failedoer3.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/failedoer3.jpg/)

Please do not use the J-nuts that come in OER packaging. Apart from the huge inconvinience factor of having to swap them for the higher quality part after installation, they are likely to fail when torquing or worse, when your running 120+ mph at the dragstrip.

Pardon me for going on about it, but it's something I feel strongly about and believe some substandard components flooding the resto market are really putting our lives at risk for the sake of literally saving a dollar or two.

www.amkproducts.com , part #B12012. $5 will buy you a packet of 2.
They have the "CIP" stamping and torque to spec no problems.

These also may still be available through your local Chevy dealer. I just bought a package of (10) for less than $20. The Chevy part number for the ten-pack is 378276. They probably sell them individually also but I don't have the individual part number.

I just called my local Chevrolet dealer parts department and 10 packs of the GM leaf spring J-nuts are still available (for order) @ only $18.00 plus tax. You can get them still. GM's!:thumbsup: Ask for Part number: 378276

Hey guys.... update on the GM 10-packs at my dealership parts dept. I picked up the back of 10 yesterday and looked at them right away to confirm which type they are.

They are all stamped with the CIP and do not have a welded nut like the original GM's that I saved from my car. They are the "molded" one-pc type. They are sealed in the GM bag. :confused: So my question is: are these the better ones to use now?

If they have the "CIP" stamp and are very (very!) hard to pry open by hand, they'll be OK.
The crap OER ones that are the reason for this thread, open very easily as they are a much lighter gauge and most likely a lower quality steel.

The good ones will torque very firmly at the specified rating of 20-30 ft/lb.
The crap ones will fail at 20 or less.

okay-- great! They are the right ones then. I would say that they are 1/16" thick too. Quite difficult to pry open by hand for sure...:yes: Thanks.

Interesting thread and thanks for the heads up!

When I took the rearend out of my car, I noticed my original clips were broke. I bought some new ones and not only did they not fit very well, they stripped out very easily. I ended up just drilling through the floorpan and putting Grade 8 bolts, washers and lock nuts on to be completely safe and not have to worry about it. :yes:

Through into the floorpan?
Did you install crush-tubes between the floorpan and where the clip nuts normally mount?
Without crush tubes, the sheet metal will deform and you'll loose all torque/preload on your bolts.

He probably did the same I did to an earlier Camaro.
I used a long drill bit and drilled a pilot hole from underneath through the top floorboard under the rear seat.
I drilled a 1 inch diameter hole, hole saw, from the seat side of the floorboard using the pilot holes.
Then, I used the same hardware and bolted the front spring box to the frame rail.
Have not had any problems, seat covers the holes.

I hope so.. That makes sense. :thumbsup:

Steve,
I copied your info and pics to the first post for you. :thumbsup:

Its been a while since anyone has posted on this thread but had a question. I was going through some nuts and bolts and found these J-Nuts. I replaced my leafs about 10 years ago and bought a bunch of these as replacements from a bolt shop. I ended up just reusing all but one of the original welded nut J-clips because it was the only one that was broken.

These are all stamped PAL. Are these safe to use? They look like the CIP stamped ones...