I'm wondering how you can tell if an X11 code 69 Camaro is a real SS or not when it dosen't have the original engine, trans or rear axle. The car in question has a 350 (non-original) at TH350 and a ford 9". It has power front disc brakes It's an X11 code car that the owner claims an original SS.

Is there anything else I can look for? I read on CRG that only performance models had the rear brake proportioning mounted under the drivers side door.

Thanks in advance
Jason

Fuel lines. And bonnet are two items I can think of.

I've just replied on another similar post. In my humble opinion, unless there's proof, then assume it's not. There's no much missing from the car you mention, that even if it was an SS, it's value is substantially reduced due to the absence of these missing parts. You may as well purchase a "plain jane" and save some cash OR find another car that is numbers matching or has documentation.

Without some kind of doc's you will never know,I would assume it's not and pay accordingly.

Good advice. I just sold my 99 SS Convertible and it's easy as can be to tell a clone; the VIN says' s if it's a real SS or not. To bad it took Chevy 30 years to figure that one out.

Don't know if this helps but I remembet at the A.C.A.Camaro Nationals last year a car in question of being a SS was confirmed not by not having a welded on piece on the driver side by rear tirewell for duall exhaust.(for hanger) Don't know for sure I just remember this being said! larry

I also read about the dual fuel lines on the SS models. The seller of this car say's it only has a single 3/8 line, which he claims SS models have, and of course he is wrong. Here's a picture of the line. Is it possible it had two lines at one point and this is all that is left?

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9016/newpicture18wt.png

No I don't think that sounds right. As I understand it, SS cars had either 350 or 396 BB's (excluding COPOs) but the 375 HP 396 only has a single fuel line as it uses a Holly where the 325/350 HP use the Quadrajet (I have the 325 HP 396) and use two fuel lines.

I still stand by what I said before. Either offer to pay less due to the lack of evidence that it's a numbers matching or documented SS or keep looking for an SS that has documentation or is numbers matching. For a car that is this "incomplete" you may be able to negotiate a much better purchase price. Many guys don't worry that their car is numbers matching and are happy to purchase a "plain jane" and spend the money they save on mods. Others, like myself, purchase numbers matching cars and intend to restore them. Once you make the choice you can purchase a car that best suites your needs and pocket.

MJ

PS There are other guys that know HEAPPPPS more about this so I'm happy to be corrected.

the disc brake proportioning valve is the 1st clue

the driver's side dual exhaust hanger support is another

welded in subframe connectors is a strike against it IMHO

(so is the color ... :-)

assume it is NOT a real SS unless the front fenders are the originals and they have the SS emblems CORRECTLY located (99.9% of all replaced front fenders have the SS emblems incorrectly located/spaced/etc

The single fuel line is a clue to it being a car with a Holley.

Does it have multileaf rear springs??
Does it have the original front springs in it, look for spring tags and check them vs what a L48 or L78 or COPO etc came with.
Was it originally a 4spd?
If so then does the speedo cable come through in the correct place for a Muncie?
Does it have a cowl hood?
If so then is the correcct piercing in the firewall for the cowl hood?
Does it have a tach?
What is the redline?

RESEARCH
The details will show many clues to a cars past...

The single fuel line is a clue to it being a car with a Holley.

A clue only. The only cars that had two fuel lines are the 350/300 L48, the LM1, and the 325 and 350 hp 396s. All others had a single fuel line.


dave

As a new member, but a long time Camaro owner, I just had few thoughts for the experts among us. I am 44 years old at this time, and I grew up in Norwood, Ohio very near the GMAD plant that produced our favorite automobiles. I was fortunate enough to be able to tour the plant many times, from the time I was an eight-year-old Cub Scout. I walked by the plant everyday on my way to school, the mall, and the community pool, and saw the cars in the lots awaiting shipment. Many of my friend’s fathers, uncles, grand fathers, brothers, etc worked for GM and Fisher Body in that plant.

Many times I read the comments of the so-called, or self-proclaimed experts and have to laugh. If you think that a car, or series of cars, was built exactly as planned, you are sadly mistaken. These cars were mass-produced on an assembly line, by fallible, human, assembly line workers. Sometimes the parts that were supposed to be installed on a particular car were missed on the line, and whatever was at hand was installed. In fact when parts were not available to keep the line going, Firebird parts were trucked in from Lordstown, Ohio or Nova parts found their way to the plant.

I’m not an expert in any way, but I was around a lot of people while I was growing up that were. In my opinion, this whole correct code or casting number thing is in a way, a farce. Believe me when that line stopped, they found parts somewhere to get it going. In ‘69 due to the extended model change over problems many ‘70 coded engines and transmissions found their way into 69 Camaro’s along with ‘70 Nova rear ends among other parts. I’m not trying to throw mud; I just wanted to point out that things are not always what they seem.

My best friend, and best man at my wedding, Kevin’s father worked on the line as many of the others did. Kevin’s father Leon told us many a story about the cars that I thought I would share. For example he told us that when the chambered exhaust cars went down the line, they went without the rotor button installed due to the possible noise, and the fact that many Camaro’s were “tested” in the parking lots, and on the surrounding streets. The dealer would install the rotor and tune the cars as part of their prep. The same was true for the COPO big block cars, only started at the dealer. This was supposed to have cut down on the number of dealer warrantee replacements dramatically. (I used to watch the line workers drag race the new cars on a short stretch of a, new at the time, highway Ohio 562; they even raced the local Cops out there.)

Z28’s never had headers in their trunk from the factory, they were dealer items and not supplied with, or on the cars. In the early ‘70’s for a short time, Oldsmobile cars went down the line, (test period? Is that an Olds rear end, or steering box, or spring in your car? It can’t be correct, right?) Some late ’69 small block SS cars got 10-bolt rear ends, and some got 4-leaf springs due to supply/parts issues in the extended model run. Some times the trim tags were accidentally left off the cars, I saw a few in my friend’s basement, along with a few of this and that part, that found their way home in Leon’s pockets.

My car was built in late October ’69 and it has what I have been told is a ’70 disk brake hold off valve on it. I have been told by many of the experts that it can’t be right because it doesn’t have the big nut; however I bought the car 23 years ago from the original owner, and he told me that it was never changed. I know there is a lot of counterfeiting going on out there lately, I’ve seen some really good ones and some really bad ones. The bottom line is you really can’t tell by this number or that number, the only way to really tell is to have a good history of your car. Documentation and previous owners statements are the only way to tell if it’s real.

Be careful who you listen to, and remember that all is not always as it seems. Nobody knows everything about these vehicles, and half of the fun of our chosen pastime is in finding out as much as we can. Do a thorough title search, and talk to as many of the previous owners as you can. Just don’t close your mind to the possibility that some things might not be what you were positive they were….

Very well written and thought out info. for us, thanks Ron :)

"they went without the rotor button installed due to the possible noise, and the fact that many Camaro’s were “tested” in the parking lots, and on the surrounding streets. The dealer would install the rotor and tune the cars as part of their prep. The same was true for the COPO big block cars, only started at the dealer."

How were the cars loaded on the trailers? With winches?
How were they unloaded?
Not trying to start anything... but I seriously doubt that any complete vehicles were shipped with out being sure that they would run... no contracted haulers are going to winch a car onto a semi either... these were union guys...
Plus the cars that were destined for dealers far away were driven to a transfer yard to be loaded onto rail cars... There was no rail spur to Norwood.
If I am wrong... I will be the first to admit it... when I see some convincing Proof.

I beg to differ with you; however there was and still is a Baltimore and Ohio rail line on the property where the plant once stood. The area has changed drastically in the past few years however the plant had it's own spur. Look on Map quest at the corner of Smith and Montgomery Roads. The rail runs parallel to the highway I spoke of, OH 562. http://www.cincypost.com/news/norwood.html (http://www.cincypost.com/news/norwood.html)

Look at the third row of pictures here. http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/bo/ (http://homepage.mac.com/jjakucyk/Transit1/bo/)

How would you propose they receive the massive amounts of parts and supplies needed to keep the line running? The rail spur ran under the roof of the plant to facilitate the unloading of parts, all done inside, and out of the weather.

Another of my good friends father worked for the hauling company, Complete Auto Transit or CAT, which transported the autos to dealers. CAT contracted with GM Norwood for as long as I can remember to transport the cars. They were not union workers and they did not work directly for GM. Mr. Watt also told me of moving cars that did not run to dealers, and yes they used winches and were paid accordingly, (last on first off). CAT also transported the cars a couple blocks to the car loading station in a steady stream. Leon told me they were saving a lot of money not repairing cars that the unofficial “testers” couldn’t drive.

I’m sorry if you have a hard time believing me, but I lived there and grew up with the son’s of the factory workers and support personnel. This is kind of like arguing with the guy that told me my car couldn’t be right.

Hey "car habit"

Well said........

I couldn't agree with you more.

I understand what you're saying and I'm sure you believe the stories folks have related to you, but you need to take some of them with a grain of salt, as many of them tend to get "embellished" over the years so it's more fun to relate them. :)

Certainly Norwood had rail lines for inbound freight - all assembly plants did in those days (although most don't today). However, there was no new car rail loading facility on the property, as it was landlocked (we even had to buy the adjacent Salvation Army building and the Shell gas station on the corner when we expanded the Body Shop in 1981); rail loading of new cars was done off-site at a separate spur by a contractor who drove the cars from the plant shipping yard to that spur. Note the caption on the center photo in the third row down in your link:

<<<View of the old car loading station for the now gone GM plant in Norwood, looking east. The GM plant was several blocks to the east of here, and this was apparently the most convenient place for the loading station. Several platforms can be seen here for layover of extra rail cars.>>>

No car ever left Norwood without a rotor in the distributor, EVER. Every unit was started and driven exactly the same way, parked in the yard, transferred to Complete, and driven on the Complete trucks in their portion of the shipping yard. There were no winches, no pushing of cars onto trucks - all were driven.

I was there - I lived it - in the Norwood plant; spent 21 years in Chevrolet assembly plants. :thumbsup:

I was just repeating what I was told; did you know Leon McKeehan, Keith Dykes, John Singleton, or any of the Crawford’s? They all told the same story at different times. My buddy Mark Watt’s dad worked for CAT and he said they had to winch many cars that wouldn’t start for whatever reason, both on and off trailers. I heard stories of missing batteries among other things. I know there was a lot of theft from that lot after it was put in operation.

By the way the site that is listed in the third row was not in operation until the mid seventies. If you recall that was the site of the old Twin drive in, and I was still watching movies there with my best girl in High School. GM bought the land a couple years after the drive in closed down and had that spur installed. CAT was then asked to transport the completed cars to the site daily.

My mom worked in the trim shop for a few years back in the fifties and they were putting the cars on the rail in the back lot near the Allis Chambers building back then. There was a whole shift when they went to the just in time inventory system and put in the water based paint towers back there. They needed the rails to get the parts to the plant just in time to build the cars. I heard that was a disaster and caused many line slow downs and stoppages.

You weren’t one of those guys I saw drag racing the Cops on the Norwood Lateral were you? Man one time I saw a Leman’s Blue Z go air born and slide through the grass median in the rain, from the Montgomery overpass; I wonder who got that car????

While I have your ear, let me take advantage of your knowledge. What year was the X body car moved to Norwood? I’m pretty sure the Firebirds were moved there in mid year ’69 as the Lordstown plant was being tooled for the H body cars; I’m thinking it was a strike year, maybe ’72? I think they were only there for a couple of years while the X body plant was retooled for the new body style in ’75. In Norwood everyone followed the fortunes of the GMAD plants.

One more quick question, I now live a couple of miles from a Fisher Body stamping plant in Fairfield, OH; were there any parts produced there for the F body cars? They just started tearing the building down and I was going to take some pictures of the carnage for posterity.

Heresay means nothing. Why is it that every so often somebody coomes along and claims to have the one car that made it through the assembly line made the wrong way.

I dont buy it. I am with John Z on this one.

Im sure there were factory screw ups and such. Not sure how often it actually happened, no way to really tell.

But we have to go by what is known to have supposed to have happened. If we decide to accept the factory anomaly theory, then the next thing you know there will be authentic 10 bolt Zs and and X44 SS's all over the place, just to chalk it up as "the factory messed up, but trust me, its real".

If the anomalies can be proven as such, thats fine. But otherwise, we cant honestly give them the benefit of the doubt.

dave

I was just reading another post about a fender well flap that was stapled incorrectly by the restorer. He was admonished by the viewer as having done a poor restoration; that is until the pictures of the original work were shown. These cars were mass produced, many "mistakes" were made. As I stated in my first post, documentation is the ONLY proof that should be acceptable.

I just happened to point out that my car has, what appears to be an incorrect hold off valve. I questioned the original owner, (I am the second owner of the car and I've had it 23 years), about the valve when I bought it. He stated it was not replaced by him. In the 1969 assembly manual the same valve that is installed on my car is pictured as optional in the RPO section. I don’t have to prove my car to anyone, and my son’s will inherit the car when I pass. I just think it’s funny that the experts don’t think its right, when GM documented it in 1969.

John Z was there, and I’d bet he can confirm that many suppliers were used, and many times the “correct part” was superceded and replaced with another. During strike years all bets were off, especially when the executives ran the lines.

While I have your ear, let me take advantage of your knowledge. What year was the X body car moved to Norwood? I’m pretty sure the Firebirds were moved there in mid year ’69 as the Lordstown plant was being tooled for the H body cars; I’m thinking it was a strike year, maybe ’72? I think they were only there for a couple of years while the X body plant was retooled for the new body style in ’75.

Norwood built the 1st-generation Chevy II prior to 1967; after that all they built was F-bodies; Firebird was added in April, 1969. The X-body cars were built at Willow Run from 1963 until it was converted to B-body Caprice in the early 90's.

During strike years all bets were off, especially when the executives ran the lines.

The executives never "ran the lines" - that's another "urban legend"; where do you suppose they'd find 4,000 executives to "run the lines"?

Every year was some kind of "strike year" at Norwood; they had the most backward, ignorant, intransigent, stubborn, radical, and short-sighted local union leadership in all of General Motors. That's why we closed the plant and launched the 4th-generation product at Ste. Therese. The workforce and their local union leadership dug their own grave.

In ‘69 due to the extended model change over problems many ‘70 coded engines and transmissions found their way into 69 Camaro’s along with ‘70 Nova rear ends among other parts.

Z28’s never had headers in their trunk from the factory, they were dealer items and not supplied with, or on the cars. In the early ‘70’s for a short time, Oldsmobile cars went down the line, (test period? Is that an Olds rear end, or steering box, or spring in your car? It can’t be correct, right?) Some late ’69 small block SS cars got 10-bolt rear ends, and some got 4-leaf springs due to supply/parts issues in the extended model run.

Interesting, but this has been documented.
The late 69's received the 1970 axle coding (70 Nova and 69 Camaro axles are the same).
67-8 Z28's did have headers in the trunk.
I think there are service bulletins on the useage of Olds parts (Olds cars were not built there to my knowledge).
The only 69 SS cars to get 10 bolts were those with Powerglides. 4 leaf springs were used on several models, depending on weight and options.

A few years ago I had my car ( "68" L30/M20 ) at a local show and two gentlemen were looking it over fairly close. After a while one of them asked if the car came with the tach and guages. I told him the dates line up with the rest of the car but the tach has the wrong redline. ( I have since found out the redline is correct and the catalogs are wrong ). He said he and his buddy used to work at Norwood and his reason for asking was they did'nt remember the 327 cars having the tach and guages just the SS's and the Z28's. But he said if the dates line up they probably are original and he would'nt worry about the redline because if they ran out of the correct part they would use what they had to keep the cars moving along. RonM