I am attaching pics of the trim plate on a car that we are looking at. The car appears to be legit and we have a third party that has verified that the engine and tran. are numbers matching. The car also comes with a near mint condition broadcast sheet (?). My question and the only thing that screams at me is the bolts that atttach the trim plate are wierd..,.ie: right one is squished and left appears to be rusted over. We are fairly interested in this car... but always skeptical. Any information / opinions would be helpful.

The car was delivered to a restoration shop for complete restoration when the owner lost interest due to another project... everyone seems on the up and up, but you never know.

Pics can be seen here:

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/vanhoo/camaro/?sc=1&multi=3&addtype=local&media=image

Thanks, Misshaley

Ok, had a little trouble attaching link to pics... but have it figured out now. Thanks

Sorry, but the Cowl Tag pictures are way to fuzzy to really allow any comments.

The BBC is in way to prisine shape to even be considered an original.
It is extremely rare to even see a halfway decent copy of a NOR broadcast sheet let alone one that looks to have been printed and then protected in a sleeve or something for all those years.
IMHO it was produced recently.

I agree with you on the broadcast sheet, while all the other paperwork with the car is in great condition (including the oil change log that has entries back to the purchase of the car) there is still age apparant, yellowing, stains, wavy, etc. Interesting tho, the current owner has owned the car for little over a year and supposedly bought it from the original owner, yet felt the need to have a sheriff verify the vin this summer and sent us a pic of the verification (unrequested) with other photos we did request. I know that that is not worth anything in the way of actual verification, but I thought it odd that he felt the need to have it done, or that we needed to see it.

Unfortunatly if we want a clearer pic of the tag we will have to drive out of state and take it ourselves. The car is in a resto shop and the shop owner does not want to deal much with selling it. The owner has shipped him another car that he wants restored instead, thus the sale of this one.

Body Broadcast sheet doesn't even go with the tag. The VIN (183689) on the BBC is from late February of 67 while the tag is from late January of 67.

I thought Norwood cars did not have a BCS like the VN cars

Where is the car located? Perhaps someone local can go look at it for you?

The VIN on the car is: 124677N183689. Or at least that is what the sheriff's document says. Could the vin and broadcast sheet be off by a couple of weeks on dates... not sure when each is struck in the process. Not trying to make this car something it may or may not be, just trying to be educated before we decide on another first gen.

Nope the VINs are more or less sequential throughout the production year. The VIN is definately from the late February time frame. The cowl tag you have a picture of, does not belong on that car, or its a fake. The BBC sheet seems to indicate its off a red deluxe interior small block convertible SS with a manual transmission and a posi rear axle. However, I also doubt its real. Do you have a better picture of the BBC? If so can you read the revision number of the sheet in the upper left corner of the sheet? The last characters which are the revision date look like 4/04, which isn't right for a BBC from 67.

BBC sheets are produced the day the car is actually scheduled to be built. They are for use inside the factory by the people on the line, and for the most part they never leave the factory. Finding one is usually a stroke of good luck, and probably happens alot less than 1% of the time (at least from Norwood).

OK, so that is why we go to you guys! Thanks so much!

Interesting that you said the BBC sheets are used by the people on the line. That would have ment that several people handled the sheet. (As background I am a photo restoration specialist and see the results of hand oils on paper over time on a daily basis.) If that is the case, there would surely be discolorations on this sheet by now if it had been handled by several people in the factory.

I also enhanced the resolution on the sheet and the revision date sure seems to be 4/04.

Thanks so much for all your wisdom, we will pass on this one.
It is so sad, sad that we have to be so vigilant in weeding out the frauds.
I know there is a genuine rs/ss conv. out there with my name on it.... now we just have to find it.
Misshaley

I'll disagree. I thought they didn't match at first, but did some digging.....

BBC looks original. I have several that are in that good of condition, but more importantly, the content looks correct. (BBC that survived were often left inside the car and the dealer prep just tossed it in the car's paperwork.)
Tag is a little off for the car, but only by about a day. Unusual, but seen before.

I'd have the car checked out by someone knowledgeable.
And remember, condition is everthing. :)

Thats an 01E cowl tag with a 02D/02E VIN, it's slightly more than being off by about a day. Body number is in the late January time frame not late Feb.

It's either a fake tag or a swapped VIN. The BBC aggrees with the VIN number but with a sheet revision of 4/04 its not real.

If the BBC isn't real, someone figured out the codes and is now making fake ones, or someone copied over the info from a real BBC onto a repro.

OK, spoke with owner and he says the BBC revision date is 6/66, not 4/04. The shop owner is heading down to the shop now to look at the tag again and check some other numbers.... Also scanning in another copy of the BBC for better clarity. We have to leave for my sisters B'day party and will check when we get back.

Then the BBC matches the VIN number on the car and the options seem to match the car, now the only question is if the tag is original to the car or not.

Here is the latest update. Spoke with the guy that ownes the restoration shop where the car is now. He confirms that the engine, tranny, and rear-end match the vin. The options match the car and BBC.

With this in mind we have decided to make the drive this afternoon/eve to see the car...and the tag. (seems it will be a little over 3 hrs drive time... so not so bad as first thought) and check it out first hand. We will have digital camera with us. Will post the pics when we get back. Still hopeful.

Also the shop owner made some comment today about only 200 made with the corvette test engine. Haven't heard that one before... any insights?

On the road...
Misshaley

Well..... We saw the car this evening. Not sure if we are any further along than before. All the VIN numbers check out fine, everything matches. I will post new pics of the tag as soon as i find the camera cord. The tag is still the unknown. The car could not look more original and all the SS options, posi etc. appear original as well, with the exception of the gas cap.

It comes down to: Could the trim tag have a date of 5th week of January (Fifth week of Jan 67 was Mon/30th and Tue/31st) and the VIN and build sheet show Mid Feb.? Could there have been a delay in the build of the car?

Absolutly everything adds up on this car but those dates.

We did see a hard "copy" of the BBC and the revision date is indeed 6/66

I will post additional pics in the morning.
Thanks so much for you insight! What a help you guys are!
MissHaley

I tend to believe the car is real. I would have to see a better picture of the cowl tag and body broadcast copy, but I don't see anything that is that far off yet.

Here are the pics that we took last evening. The tag had a black caulk type substance over the rivits that the guy scraped off easily so we could view the rivits. You can still see where it was around the rivits. The tag was NOT tightly secured to the firewall along the top. Take a look and all opinions are welcome at this point.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/vanhoo/camarorsss003.jpg


http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/vanhoo/?sc=3&start=20

Thanks, Misshaley

Corvette test engine? I've never heard that one before. I think its real too. If you dont buy it give us the heads up, someone here might want it.
Ron

I concure with Daniel about the tag, it looks to be the original to that vehicle*.
The overall condition of the vehicle would lend credence to the fact that it is as represented and not something someone has made up recently to boost resale.
The engine type seems consistant with an original - only carefull checking of suffix, cast codes and internal inspection could tell you if it is. Oh, btw, some Camaro and Corvette engines shared some common parts, but their suffix designations and spec.s differed, so it's not some special "Corvette test engine", no such thing exists - now, if it had been one of those rumored factory 427 cars ... ;)

The BBC is still something I'm having trouble getting my brain around ...
One would think if someone took the trouble to find and preserve a copy of such a insignificant document (at the time it was collected) and all the oil/service records for the life of the vehicle, they would have also perserved the POP, Bill-of-sale and all the other pieces of paperwork that would have been with the original vehicle.
As always, JMHO's - as many on this site would point out 'I've been wrong before' :)
John M.

Note - * the tag compares very well with Mr. Wilcox's '01E' tag ... :D

Looks like a nice original car from the pics. Well except maybe for those super cool exhaust pipes sticking out the back. :D RS/SS Convertible..a very nice find indeed. Good Luck!

I'm trying to picture what car the current owner could have found that makes him want restore that one and sell this one. One owner COPO?

I felt the same regarding the POP. Why would someone so meticulous with their paperwork... (there is also a complete oil change record for every 3000 miles) not have the POP. In trying to find out more about this car it seems the original owner passed away and there was quite a "discussion" among the survivors with regards to the estate. Apparantly one son said all he wanted was this car, it seems he ended up with it, and "most" of the paperwork. Not sure why he ended up selling it, but he did, to another individual in the area who owned a body shop, then sold it to the current owner who promptly had it delivered to the shop where it is now. So... that is the extent of our knowledge.

While we didnt doubt the current owner regarding his impression that the car was genuine, We had no way of knowing if it had been messed with during the short stent with the guy who bought it from the original son.

From the general concensus in this thread, we are taking it that the car is genuine... "you can't be too careful" as we have learned here. Now all that is left is to agree on a price... easier said than done.

Misshaley

Hehe, apparantly a one of one Nickey Nova stole his affection

mishaley,, nice find but the one thing that would be bothering me is WHY was a vin inspection done ?? The only time i have ever had to have that done is when there is no title too the car and i was trying to get tag, registration and title in my name. Sad to say but not once have i had the officer know about the hidden vins, they would just look at the one in the door jam or in the dash and sign the form, You can look on the title it will show if there was a previous title.

From what i understand, when the current owner bought the car he had it shipped straight to the shop where it is now. So he then needs an inspection of the out of state vehicle he just bought in order to title it, but the car is 18 hours away. He calls the shop owner to arrange for the local sheriff to do a vin certification which he can then use to get the thing titled in his home state. He did email me a copy of the previous title as I had the same question. I am sure the sheriff had no idea of the hidden vins either. The shop owner that showed us the car last night did.

Thats understandable if the car wasent present at the time he was trying to transfer the title, Just with all the nightmares we read about with titles and vins just thought it would be worth mentioning,,Frank

Note - * the tag compares very well with Mr. Wilcox's '01E' tag ... :D
For Comparison:
Yours:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/vanhoo/camarorsss003.jpg
Mine:
http://www.67rs-ss.net/my67/firewall_cowl/cowltag.jpg

Hey, thanks for the comparison tags...

Misshaley

Well except of course that Chris's tag is clearly a fake.... i kid, i kid. ;)

Funny! Funny!

I dont know if I should have started a new thread r not but how did the cowl tags com from the factory painted or unpainted or painted with the paint removed from the letters and numbers.

Painted.

Well except of course that Chris's tag is clearly a fake.... i kid, i kid. ;)
:mad: :eek: :sad: :angry:

I would instantly be VERY wary of a Camaro restorer who told me that it was one of 20 built with a "Corvette test engine"; there's no such thing. Have I missed something, or were all the engine numbers posted? :rolleyes:

I dont know if I should have started a new thread ... but how did the cowl tags com from the factory painted or unpainted or painted with the paint removed from the letters and numbers.

Mr Rat:
They were attached to the firewall during body shell assembly prior to body and firewall paint. They them recieved a coat of the firewall color during the black paint process.
They should just show a light to medium coat of firewall black. The factory did not modify them to inhance visiblity - no need, they had the paperwork to show what they needed to know.

HEY Chris!
I have a better photo of your cowl tag that you do :rolleyes:
I'm still on the fence as to originality :D

John:
I haven't seen any numbers posted, but I asked if they were checked and recorded ...

John

Regardless of how this particular situation works out, I think this is a good example that many of the newer members of TC should take note of (those that have been around here for a while should know by now).

We certainly dont mind helping out, but we definately prefer "Im thinking about buying this car, what do you think?" compared to "I just bought this car. Does it look okay or did I get screwed?". :thumbsup:

As for this car, I really cant add much to the discussion. I dont know 67s that well :p


dave

... the restorer that has the car is not a "camaro" restorer. He has worked primarily with Chevelle's and the test engine thing came to him from the owner. It may be adding fuel to the fact that the owner appears quite "proud" of the car. He is asking WAY more that it is worth in its condition...IMHO. We are not asking for a steal...but my goodness. Part may be due to the fact that he bought it sight unseen and had it shipped directly to the shop. The owner has still never laid eyes on the car.

I know in the internet world cars are bought everyday sight unseen, but we must be old fashioned... or maybe silly... but we have to see it first. Sure that crosses a lot of cars off out list, but we have seen too many horror stories.

Thanks for all your input... I will keep you posted.

You haven't defined what you think is "WAY more than it's worth", but if it's truly a numbers matching SS350/4 speed convertible with documentation, I'm guessing $25K would be in the ball park.

Well.... he is asking more than that, and the car is pretty rough. Best we can tell needs new quarters and possible fenders to just start naming things, not to mention a full resto. We will see. Terribly confused right now if we need to jump on this one or wait for one in a little better shape.

We have just been told about another car (in our own town) that is an original RS/SS convertible and Shhhhh.... a Big Block. Sitting in an old garage.

Dont get me wrong... i'm not looking for a "done" car, and we dont want to end up with a trailer queen. But we would like to find a decent car that we can work with/on and enjoy on those sunny days when the streets are clean. Smile. (Tragically missing our 67 ss350 conv. that we sold in Nov. in a moment of insanity) http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/vanhoo/ss350/camaro.jpg

We have just been told about another car (in our own town) that is an original RS/SS convertible and Shhhhh.... a Big Block. Sitting in an old garage.

:eek:

Well, somebody has to fund work on his Nickey....:)

The numbers and documents, if real are what's going to drive the price on the first car. I'm not a big numbers guy (my VIN is "123" but my motor is a "396"), so that first one, while cool, wouldn't be for me. Plus if I got it, I would want NOS sheetmetal for that type of car, and then it snowballs from there... next thing you know you have an $80K car that is worth half that.

Regarding the last, right now I am picturing every TC member checking every "old garage" in towns all over.

If we decide that this car is "the one", then that is exactly what we are hoping too. Here's hoping the Nickey is really needy.

Is this the car from NW Colorado?? IS it in a shop in Florida?? If so, it is a real car. It sold for about $23k last year. I passed on it because I did not want to do the quarter panel. If you want a done rs/ss conv, mine is all matching and would be cheaper than getting the red one when you add restoration costs. Tim

Hi All,
I wanted to give you an update. First, yes this is probably the car from Colorado, it is not in florida, that is where the owner is. The car was shipped directly to Kentucky, where we saw it. We did not come to an agreement with the owner over price. So... 1. our search continues 2. If anyone is interested, this car is still avail.

Thanks for all your help! You guys are great!
MissHaley

For Comparison:
Yours:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d89/vanhoo/camarorsss003.jpg
Mine:
http://www.67rs-ss.net/my67/firewall_cowl/cowltag.jpg

I wanted to bring this thread up again to ask Mark/Kurt/Daniel a question about VIN/Trim matching.
The VIN on the first car in the above, ends in 183689. The bottom one (my car) ends in 181417. They are both 01E cars.

There was some questions about the VINs matching up with the date of the trim tag on the other car. Is it possible that the chart being referenced is not accurate? Here's the data from the chart I've seen:

NOR
Camaro
End Month
VIN Total
------ -------------
Jan-67 174339 14296
Feb-67 179242 4903
Mar-67 197221 17979

Yes the chart is not quite accurate. Really, I don't know of any published charts that are accurate. We (CRG) look in our data base to determine if a vin#/body# is within acceptable range.

That's no fun! It'd be really nice to get a more accurate chart made. Thanks for the answer Daniel. Is the chart completely useless then? I was going by the one listed on the CRG site: http://camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#HowMany
Any hopes of this getting updated with data from your database?
Thanks alot!

No, the chart is not completely useless, It gets you in the ballpark, but don't live or die by it. We have no intentions on publishing a chart from our data base for fear that the guys that fake cars will have one more tool to use.

Thanks again for the reply Daniel.

Hey wait a minute Chris...i thought you werent a chart guy.

If you look at the caveats before the chart, it says it isn't accurate. One or two months are way off, most are pretty close.

Hey wait a minute Chris...i thought you werent a chart guy.
I'm not, at least for replying to folks questions about them. I was looking at the chart for my own trim tag and saw it wasn't in-line with the VIN according to that chart, so I started doing some research. Good try though! :D :beers:
If you look at the caveats before the chart, it says it isn't accurate. One or two months are way off, most are pretty close.
I usually do miss those caveats Kurt. I wasn't being critical of the effort you all put into your data. I was curious and concerned about my own information I had. Thanks for the heads up. :)