I turned sixteen in July, and Im planning out my first car. Ive always liked Camaros so Ive decided to go with an '86 IROC w/ a manual tranny and a 308. Basically, I was advised by my dad not to get anything carbeurated, for obvious reasons, and I like the style of the IROCs, plus I like the idea of a stickshift. Anyways, Ive always wanted side pipes (heard them called Lake Pipes before) and I was wondering:
a) how hard are they to install (header - pipe, no catalytic or muffler)?
b) how would it look on an IROC? I wasnt able to find any pictures

Thanks!

Do what you like you asked how they would look and I am going to say not good at all. The body shape of the car does not lend it's self to that style of pipe. you should also keep all the emissions parts on it for computer reasons and it's the law. They make plenty of aftermarket parts that are smog legal so there is no excuse not to have a project like this one that is not.

Joe

In Canada, once a vehicle hits 20 (It becomes an antique) the vehicle does not need to be e-tested, and therefore does not need a catalytic or muffler.

In Canada, once a vehicle hits 20 (It becomes an antique) the vehicle does not need to be e-tested, and therefore does not need a catalytic or muffler.

That doesn't mean the earth doesn't need it ;) Joe gave you some good advice and I agree.

Okay, well let me rephrase then: how hard would it be KEEPING THE CATALYTIC AND MUFFLER IN (you're welcome ;)) to install functional side pipes? Ill probably make a mock-up once I get the car to see how theyd look before I go out and buy them.

I personally think they would not look good regardless of how you do it. If this is going to be your daily driver, don't mess with it. Wait till you can afford a "toy" to modify.

This will be my daily driver, but there are three other vehicles owned by my parents, so worst case scenario, if I have to wait a week for a part, then I can wait. Ive also saved up quite a nestegg, not just for the car, but for parts and accessories aswell, so Im covered there too. But if you think itll look THAT bad, then Ill let this topic die. Sorry to bother you.

they look BAD

Heh, well theres the answer then. I wanted a 69-74 Z28 style, but since they're carbeurated, theyd be a b*tch to start in the winter here, plus all the general carb problems associated with them.

EDIT Instead of a new thread Ill just hijack my own: How hard would it be to drop a blower on a fuel-injected 308? Ive seen it done to engines w/ carbs but Im not sure how different it is with fuel injection.

Hey Cola - Carbs are only a problem if they are not maintained and tuned. How do you think folks got through winter before FI and computers? I don't want to under-mine your dad but I think he wants you in a low-po vehicle. Throttle body V8 Camaros of the 80's made less power than the V6 of the 90's and on...

As for the side pipes (especially "Lake Pipes" from the 50's and early 60's) would not be right on a modern car. On top of that on the 3rd gen they would look like running boards... The body just isn't designed for them.

Why are you not looking for an '87 or newer 350 with TPI? They are not that much more expensive and would be all the power you need to get in big trouble if not careful. I'm not trying to squish any dreams but you will have more work than you can handle making the car a good safe driver and making it look nice without thinking about blowers for a couple years. That will give you time to really learn how to drive and decide if the car you get is up to the added power... You might want to spend some time over at www.thirdgen.org, you are more than welcome to hang out here but you will find this is a 1st gen site and you won't have a very large knowledge base to draw from here.

I think that you'll find the guys here went easy on you about the side pipes, at least compared to how the 3rd gen owners will react... Good luck, i know the License and 1st car is about the biggest thing in your life right now, take it slow and wait for the best possible car so you don't end up wasting your money...

Well, we have a '79 van that the Jamaicans use, which is carbeurated, and he's basing all of his assumptions off of it. Hes owned a Camaro, Trans Am, etc in the 60's and complains of Carb problems, and since theyre paying for half of the vehicle, Ill let him have his way for now. As for going newer than 87, I like the style of the 69 z28's, which Im not allowed to have, and the IROC-Z's. I dont like anything post-1993 as theyre too round.

In re. to the blower, Im not saying Im going to put one on, or even that I can afford one, Im just asking what it would be like to install one (Ive been wondering for awhile, and my dad laughs at me at any mention of a supercharger, turbo, or n2o). Thanks for the link, Ill have to sign up there and troll some more.

Side pipes!

Hunt up someplace like SPEEDWAY MOTORS and see if they don't sell the old-fashioned straight, bent tipped chrome side pipes like is generally used on old shoebox Mercury's and Fords and earlier cars. (They might be called "Lakes Pipes"?)....

They may have "bolona tips" on the ends?? Cut like bolony lunchmeat is all at an angle...

Then you have to figure out how to make a contorted/bent u-shaped pipe that will run from the end of your exhaust pipe/exhaust manifold flange to the inlet of the side pipes that has to go either right behind the front tire OR under the rocker panel up front.

You will see what I mean... AND under the rocker panels to me is TOO LOW and you will be rubbing them off all the time!!

And after you figure out how to pipe them, you will need to hang/mount them and I figure that they will have to be mounted out away from the rocker panels at their bottom level and there is a darn good chance that everytime you get in and out of your car, if you aren't careful, you wll burn the back of your leg if you touch them while hot.

AND I wouldn't even think about running side pipes that come with heat guards on them b/c to me they are down-right tacky EXCEPT on a 'Vette that came stock with them. UNLESS you mount them vertically right behind the cab on each side on an old Pickup...

pdq67

Look into the wipple type belt driven superchargers, not a blower. They make kits for Third gens and they run about 3 to 5 k and will take a weekend to install. It will provide all the power your ever going to need at 16 and then some. The coolest thing about them is the job is not that hard if you have some mechanical skills. With that said, I don't know what yours are or your dads.

The carb issue could be as DJD says and it's his way of keeping you in a lower perf car or the mechanical skills are not there to mess with a carb, which translates to no blower install also.Your saying 308 but I think you mean 305. I thought the first time was a typo.

I think your new to all of this so this is my advise to you on your new project, don't take it as talking down to you or anything like that. Just an old fart passing on some helpfull hints to a new motor head.

Check your skills dude and know what "you" can do and go from there. Changing spark plugs and doing a tune up of the basic parts would be an excellent start as well changing oil and lubing her where she needs it.

New to the hobby and cars I would start with being able to the general maintenance stuff first. Look in you owners manual if you have one, if you don’t get the shop manual from Haynes or Chilton which you will need anyway and it has all the needed maintenance info in it. Haynes manuals have lots of pictures, which are great for people starting out. It has great information and when you can accomplish all those tasks well and have the tools to do them then move up to more stuff. I would dive off into the deep end off the high dive on your first car. I know it's exciting and you can't wait to see that new to you Camaro all fixed up. My best advice I can give to a young person is step back; take a deep breath or 50. Then start looking at the Camaro with your new shop manual to make sure it's safe and reliable. Build your knowledge from there, then fix her up as fast or slow as you can learn and afford to do.

I am working on a 63 Ford falcon with my daughter son and they are doing the work. I got it running but they will learn to do the other stuff just as I said above. My daughter has already helped change out a clutch and trans in an S10 we bought and sold for a little project money. I did the heavy lifting and she did most of the other work and put in the clutch bolted un-bolted connect lines and inspected before fire up.

Take your time, learn about you new ride and just look her over from tip to tail. I am sure you will find plenty to do that cost a very little but will teach you allot, then move up to the big stuff.

More power to you. If you have a goal [and money(and knowledge and ability) to make it happen], then it's a great thing. Especially when you're 16. I did not have a real clear picture of all that i wanted to do (and actually still don't) when i first started and did not have good guidance or knowledge and thus lots of money and time was wasted. So, you gotta have a plan and it looks like you at least have one.


1) First of all, what the hell is a "308?"


2) Where do you live?
a) they don't have any emmissions testing or checking where i live, and i'm proud to say that i will and have taken full advantage of this fact.


3) The use of sidepipes:
I've contemplated putting sidepipes on a cavalier, so don't let someone talk you out of it if that's what you really want; It's your car and you're driving it. Not someone else.
Your ability to weld and bend exhaust pipe will determine how easy/hard this will be. Of course, you could always bring it to a good muffler shop that does custom work (shouldn't be too hard to find) and have them do it.

4) Electronic fuel injection is not nessesarily better than carbs.
a) One disadvantage of EFI is cost.

1) For some reason I thought it said 308. Went back over the ad and it said 305. My mistake.
2) Im from Southern Ontario. They e-test every vehicle until it hits 20, in which case its considered an antique and doesnt need the testing.
3) Ive never mandrel-bent tubing, but I can weld pretty well, so it would come down to getting the parts and actually doing the install.
4) Any upside to having a carb (or carbs), besides the simplicity of droping a blower on at a later date?

Also, thanks Joe for the words of wisdom :)

2) Great! Then go for it man.

3) That is good that you can weld, especially at 16. I think you can get tubing benders at harbour freight for under $150 US. Do you have harbour freights in canada?
Also, summit sells flex-type exhaust connectors, so you might not even have to do any bending. I just discovered these last night because i'm getting ready to put headers on. I will try to locate the link asap.


4) I feel that carbs are less complicated than EFI (although efi has far fewer parts). They are easier to fix and adjust for the average consumer. Also, generally cheaper. If you work as a line mechanic at GM, then fuel injection might be easier to fix. If you have electrical problems (admittedly very, very rare) then the car doesn't run. Carbs don't have this problem. Of course, on the iroc's the carb is computer controlled, but you can easily convert to a non-computer carb. More on that later.

I used to go to s ontario every week for business and while it's cold, it's not that cold. So, you should have no starting problems provided your choke is working right. And you have a good battery. Admittedly, fuel injection will start easier.

If you want to add a blower, and if it's the blower i'm thinking of, then using fuel injection will actually be easier because holley makes a unit especially for big 6-71's. But it will cost much more than two carbs.

Carburated vehicles are a lot easier to work on. A carburated fuel system consists of a pump, intake, and carb. The early 80's ones with Throttle body injection aren't too bad to work on, because they aren't really full fledged EFI. Once you get to a full on EFI system with fuel rails, injectors, sensors etc. you have A LOT more parts that can fail. If you are fairly comfortable with electronics, EFI isn't too bad.

If you just want a reliable camaro to cruise in, the newer the better. If you want a car to modify and mess around with, pickup an older, cheaper one.



I was in a similar situation to yours. When the time came around to upgrade my car, I bought an engine block and slowly put the components I wanted on it. Once it was just about complete I tore the old engine out and put the rebuilt one in. Total downtime for the car was one weekend.

If you want a car to modify and mess around with, pickup an older, cheaper one.
Thats pretty well what I want. I want it to run well, and not have any frame or body issues, but not something that I spent so much on and am afraid to mess around with it.

3) That is good that you can weld, especially at 16. I think you can get tubing benders at harbour freight for under $150 US. Do you have harbour freights in canada?
Ive been welding for a couple years, but only arc. I suppose I should probably pick up a mig and practice. Never heard of Harbour Freight. We do have Princess Auto though, and they blow out surplus stuff every week, so Im sure I could pick up a tubing bender for cheap there.


I used to go to s ontario every week for business and while it's cold, it's not that cold. So, you should have no starting problems provided your choke is working right. And you have a good battery. Admittedly, fuel injection will start easier.
His whole thing was that with a manual choke, you have to mess around finding the perfect setting to get it to start, then its a matter of too much, not enough, etc. His thing against e-chokes was that since Im only driving the car to school and back, fifteen minutes each way, (regularly, but Im still going to take 'er out every friday at least) the engine wont have enough time to heat up by the first stop, and it will be harder to keep running, because the choke will still be on. Any way around this?

If you want to add a blower, and if it's the blower i'm thinking of, then using fuel injection will actually be easier because holley makes a unit especially for big 6-71's. But it will cost much more than two carbs.
Im looking in the Jegs catalog right now, and it looks like it would be easier with 2x4bbl carbs, because you pull the carbs off, drop on the blower assembly from the kit, put the carbs back on it, fit the linkages, rig up the pulleys, and thats it. (SB-Chevy 8-71, $2689.99).

Im only driving the car to school and back, fifteen minutes each way, (regularly, but Im still going to take 'er out every friday at least) the engine wont have enough time to heat up by the first stop, and it will be harder to keep running, because the choke will still be on. Any way around this?

I don't understand this... If it's cold enough to keep the choke on it will run fine with the choke on.

The problem is (and it effects both FI and carb equipped cars) you are not going to be driving far enough to get the engine warmed up. You'll never burn off crank case gasses and contaminates and will wear the engine out faster than if you got it up to proper temps each time you drive it...

I plan on driving it a lot, for example, Im going out to the rockies with it after I get my G2, but its just that Im going to be going fifteen minutes in the morning and fifteen minutes in the afternoon regularly, and daily. Its probably bad for it, but will it be any better/worse with a carb, tbi, or full fi?

Basically, what are a couple pluses I could use as reasons for wanting something w/ a carb, that my dad would understand? Not just 'ease of installing a blower', but something like 'if something goes wrong, its a matter of replacing a carb, not tearing an engine apart and having to reconfigure a computer, etc'.

a block heater or oil heater might be a good investment in your case. it will alow the car to come to warm up a little quicker. Me I would rather have warmer water on cold mornings and run a low viscosity oil in colder weather.

The choke on my Q-Jet on my 406 is wired wide open! I used to just pump her about three or four times and fire her right off up until it got to about 12 below zero AND then I just got my can of starting ether out and then kicked her off.

I would let her idle for a bit and put it in low gear and go on off easily until she warmed up, then I'd drive normallly..

To heck with a choke..

Of course back then, I was commuting 80 miles a day on the highway so never had to worry about sludging up my oil!!

pdq67

Just make sure to take an extra trip somewhere every friday, it will be fine.

If you only drove it 10 miles a day for 12+ months I would worry, but as long as it sees a good drive once a month, it will be fine. Just change the oil frequently.

as for the side pipes i have seen them on a early 80s firebird and they do look kinda out of place but they sound really good but the thing you need to remember is the iroc has a fiberglass ground effect along the side and heat may become a problem now if you get creative and could mold the pipes in to the g-effects like on the vipers now i think that would look alot better but alot of work and also being a owner of a third gen iroc getting out isent always easy and a hot side pipe on the leg is never fun ask a vette owner and i to have thought of a blower i think it looks mean but big coin so do what you want its your car make it the way you want