I was helping friend do a tall spindle conversion on a older El Camino and it peaked my interest in the tall ball joint setup from www.scandc.com (http://www.scandc.com) has anybody done this? It appears that the ATS spindle geometry is somewhat the same. It also appears that if this is done you would not use the guildstrand mod....Just wondering if extra cash is worth it for the ATSspindles.....

Our AFX tall spindle has front geometry far better than a G mod or tall ball joint could ever give you.
Short answer, yes it is well worth the $$.
Here is a quick comparison-
We have the same amount of caster, better negative camber gain, and much better bumpsteer than the brand new $6700 DSE full front subframe, all done with a $695 bolt on spindle.


Tyler

Hey Teetoe,

What stock ball joint is the tall one??

I held the sucker in my hands at the Parts House one evening after asking onna the guys if I could look at about 6 or 8 of them.

And sure enough, there is a tall one out there. I forgot it's PN is all??? My bad...

pdq67

OK. I have no question that they are good. They are even sold out right now. I want more details. Your site does not talk about upper arms which are the adjustable, etc. I will be doing a suspension upgrade sometime within the next year and it will include new PBR brakes and at least 16in wheels. Even if I go with the ATS spindles I will still get del-alum bushings and a offset cross-shaft, maybe upper tubular arms,etc. I have the Guildstrand mod but can easily go back. Basically what I am saying is it appears that the spindles are a bolt on to a regular set of a-arms. What happens to the shimming? Do upper a-arms like GW's help? I know that you make 2 heights and if you had a choice which is better the shorter ones with the guild mod or the longer ones without?

The tall spindle with aftermarket control arms and factory Upper control arm mounting point is the best setup you can get. These will work with any factory or aftermarket arm, but they will require a 17" wheel and a C5 brake kit (A track kit from Baer will not fit as it is based off a C4 corvette).

The G mod and the short spindle will not give you any handling change except for reduced bumpsteer, lighter weight and larger bearings.

Tyler

Thanks Tyler. Not sure I wanted to go with 17's. But will probably still go with them. Nobody done the mod? Dave any comments on this?

Thanks Tyler. I am not sure I want to go with 17's I was going to try to get TT D's under the car. I will probably still go with ATS as they are very nice. I am aware of the G mod and what it does. I am still interested in the tall spindles but after putting in adapters for the brakes, etc it is probalby not worth it as bushings, cross shafts, etc are over half the cost of new tubulars. Dave any comments? Anybody?? I am suprised if nobody here has considered this mod....

Anybody know if it is possible to move the wheel spud down two inches on Heidt's taller spindle so it won't be dropped???

That'd be the way to go or else Teetoe's set-up...

pdq67

The G mod and the short spindle will not give you any handling change except for reduced bumpsteer, lighter weight and larger bearings.

Tyler
Tyler, I always have a lot of respect for anything you have to say, but the quote above is flat wrong.

As far as camber curve, it makes no difference if you spread the outer pivots or close up the inners, effect is the same other than the degree to which it is changed.

You mis-read what I'm trying to convey.

I'm saying that adding our short AFX spindle to a vehicle that already has a G mod done will give no increased handling over what is on the car currently.

Tyler

OK for the short spindles and the G-mod. How does that compare with the tall spindle and no G-mod? It sounds like that is the way to go. Also if that is done I would assume that to get the alignment into spec it would take an offset shaft and/or a lot of shims for a stock a-arm? Any thoughts on using only one tall ball joint with the G-mod?

Tyler, thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.

69 Ghost, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. You DO NOT want to do both the g/s mod and either the tall spindle or the tall ball joint. Pick one.

The g/s mod, tall ball joint, or tall spindle work by changing the angle between the control arms. The effect of all 3 is to change the "camber curve" to make the outside tire roll out in a turn rather than in. This keeps more of the outside front tires contact patch on the pavement and dramtically improves handling by increasing traction and reducing understeer.

Note the geometry of the suspension is defined by where the pivots are, not by what connects them.

Fancy control arms alone do very little. The only thing they CAN change is to move the upper ball joint back, which increases caster.

Offset shafts basically do the same thing as shims on the upper control arm mount, just permanently. They help if your frame is sagging, and they can also help you get more caster without introducing too much caster.

Redesigned spindles can help camber curve if they are taller than stock, and can help bumpsteer if the steering arm is redesigned. Note Tylers warning that you need to use 17" wheels with his spindles. The standard spindle and steering arm are the way they are so the fit in a 14" rim.

And as tyler pointed out... fancy subframes may be stronger and look cool, but they can't change the geometry of the front suspension unless they are combined with different control arms, steering arms, and maybe spindles.

OK!

How much will my Pro-Motorsports 1-15/16" taller spndle extenders and offset MOOG upper shafts help my otherwise stock car??

pdq67

ttt................

Surely somebody will run it through a front suspension program and tell me how much my front roll center is going to raise....

pdq67

ttt!!!

Again, can the spud be raised 2"s in the Heidlt tall forged spindles to a stock location??

And how much will my Pro-Motorsports 1-15/16" tall upper stock spindle extenders raise the front roll center!!

pdq67

The taller balljoints are similar to doing the Guldstrand mod, but - they only add 1/2" so they would do slightly less than the G mod. I'd say they are good for the guy who has a Z/28 and does not want to drill holes in the subframe.

The part of the BJ body that fit's through the A arm hole is slightly fat, so the stock upper A arm hole must be filed a bit to enlarge it by .015" or so. GW arms have a .025" smaller hole dia than stock, and need even more filing to fit the tall BJ.The bolt holes are smaller on the tall balljoint and you may have to file the holes on your A arm to get the bolts in if you have aftermarket arms. Our GW arms had a distorted bolt pattern that is not a problem for Moog balljoints but the Sc&C joints are drilled smaller and there really isn't extra metal to drill them larger so you have to work on the A arm.

pdq67,
The drop spindles have a boss made for the spindle pin, you'd have to drill an extra hole to lower the pin and that would leave an extra hole where the pin was. It's cast iron, so you can't weld on it.

PRO MOTORSPORTS UPPER BALLJOINT SPACERS.



Dive" RCH Camber deg Stock RCH Stock camber Gmod RCH Gmod Camber
0 6.27 0 1.12" 0 2.24 0
1" 5.42" -1.39 1.85" -.49 1.52 -.59
2" 4.66" -2.94 -.33" * -1.27 .87 -1.41
3" 4" -4.68 -.68" * -2.34 .31 -2.45

*below ground

Above is from Performance Trends Suspension Analyzer and measurements
taken off my subframe with Gmod done by cutting off the upper mounts,
trimming them and welding back on. My version of the Gmod may be slightly
more aggressive than their current drill template, but close. None are actual
measurements, they are all computer generated.


If I could draw you a picture of what 3" of bump looks like on the screen, the tires would look like this: / \

With 1" of dive and 2 deg of roll combined, there would be -.98 deg neg camber, that's starting with 0 deg static camber, so add any static camber to that.
The roll center is moving fairly close to the chassis, but the instant centers are moving WAY inward - very close to the Instant center, rule of thumb is the IC should be approx 2 times the track width for stability, and the extremely high RCH is likely to produce jacking effects when cornering.

David,

I will have to take some time so I can picture in my pointy little head what you are telling me.

Thanks,

pdq67

Thanks Dave. I rebuilt my car almost 10 years ago and have started to work on handling/brake mods over what I have originally done. I have already done the Guild mod and was looking to do some things before I go to bigger brakes and tires. As usual with my luck I have done things over at least 2 or 3 times which is why I have learned to try to be more careful and do the research up front to try to get the best I can given the resources. I am finally starting to understand what and where to go. I just purchased some solid subframe bushings, lower del-alums and upper tubulars. I am going to add some 5536 springs into the mix then decide if I want to get some del-alums for the rear leafs or new rear leafs. I think I am going to can any ideas of aftermarket non-leaf suspension mod.

Try some "good" rear leaf springs, like Global West or Hotchkis. For a street car, I'd stick with a stock front leaf eye bushing and either energy suspension rear shackle bushings or the best would be the GW Cat 5 shackles.

There is talk about leaf spring twist and preventing that by using the Cat 5 stuff, but what I've seen with our 73 Camaro and Hotchkis leafs which use stock front and energy suspension shackles is not showing much problem with that. We have quite a bit of roll with almost no rear spring twist problems that would show up in corner exit oversteer under full power.

pdq67.
The Pro Motorsports spacers were developed for the makers second gen Camaro. That car has taller spindles and can tolerate the spacers better without as much movement of RCH. On a short second gen spindle, I would not ever do the Guldstrand mod and really, they go too far, they raise the UBJ 1 15/16"!

They also put a straight shank bolt in a tapered hole which I don't like.

It is much better to do the Guldstrand mod with stock upper balljoints.

Tylers spindes are a great way to go for those who want the maximum reasonable neg camber gain without having to drill holes in their subframe, in additon, they fix bumpsteer so you don't have to heat and bend the steering arms.

One thing to remember is, when you get on the gas, the front suspension rises and the camber curve goes the other way. Excessive neg camber gain means excessive positive camber when you are on the gas exiting a corner.
David

By the time I spend $200 for the bushings and new pads I am already half way there to a new set of leafs from Hotchkis. I do have the 5 leaf HD setup but it looks like GW's or Hotchkis is the way to go. I was leaning towards the Hotchkis just due to the fact that they include everything including the shackles, etc. The GW's would probably be about the same after it is all done.

Ghost,

I installed the 5536's in my car after I first clocked the bottoms of them to my "350 motor car warantee replaced" stock BB A/C springs.

Then I cut one bottom coil off them and it set's way low with my 496, BUT TO ME it still has good road clearance!!

And it leveled the lower A-arm some too........... (Almost, but not quite level)....

I RECOMMEND cutting a top coil and clocking them at the same time b/c they are closer together is all.. B/c to me, the drop won't be quite as extreme!

IF you plan on lowering your car any is why I mention it....

And I have to say that my car has NEVER been this low at the front fender tops before so it took a bit of getting used to.

Front up OLD-SCHOOL all the way before unless my rearend was raised way up which I usually kept it up to clear my great big L-60/14's with smaller, stock-type, tires on the front...

pdq67

Back again.

David, I'm thinking that b/c my now heavier BB motored car has like 500/525# coils and 175# or so leaf's springs on it as well as a 1" front and a 3/4" rear S/B, that she should be stiff enough to not jack up front..

But I will have to drive it to know for sure!!

pdq67

pdq67,
The higher the front roll center, the stiffer the front suspension in roll. More cornering force is transmitted directly to the wheels and not through the suspension (the springs and anti-roll bars). That's why the old buggy spring sprint cars with straight front axle didn't need anti-roll bars. In other words if the roll center were as high as the center of gravity height, the car would not lean, even if there were NO anti-roll bars.

Dam David you are right ON!

Hit me between the eye's with a 2x4!!

I see just what you are talking about!!

GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I needed it...............

Guys. Here is where I am. I have already purchased a set of GW upper A-arms, lower del-alums, and solid CE bushings that are going in back to back. I already have bolt in sub-frame connectors and a 1 1/8inch front bar and the Guildstrand mod. I am going to go with a new spring setup front and rear thanks to Dave as I got my fronts from NPD -cheap but they don't know C$#p because they want to sell you stock springs. Rears are 5 leafs. I was originally going to go with #5536's only and set it up for a 1 inch drop. I am now going to get a hotchkis rear setup which is probably the best for the cash then started thinkin Hotchkis front and rear for a matched set. I am going to call Hotchkis tomorrow because I think with my front bar diameter the front springs may be too stiff. I am also not 100% positive on a 2inch drop over just a 1 inch. Any recommendations on the fronts? I am pretty set on the Hotchkis rears as I think for the buck and what Dave said about the poly rears and rubber fronts it is going to be all I need.

If I had this to do over, I'd use the adjustable cans in front so that I could adjust my ride height with a wrench!!

Ain't hindsite great...

pdq67

Yea I hear you about the adjustable cans but I am more for put it in and forget it. I will however rip it apart a few times to get it right if I have to.

1. How difficult is it to do the Guldstrand mod through the fender wells with the car fully assembled?

2. Did anyone ever determine a part number for the tall ball joints? After reading this it seems like a good option.

Tall ball joints are available here:
http://www.SCandC.com They are 1/2" taller than stock, and are made VERY well, VERY strong, a crome molly ball stud and 1050 body, aluminum cap. Tell Mark you talked to me on this forum.

DO NOT use these if you have done the Guldstrand mod.

I have a magazine article on my web page you can download that shows an in-car G Mod. It's pretty easy to do, but you need to cut off the top of the frame bracket to clear the stock A arm. an aftermarket upper A arm usually eliminates this need.
David

David,

Thank you very much for your advice. We are very fortunate to have you and your expertise on this forum.
I read the magazine article and it doesn't look too difficult even on the assembled car, but I do think they are over simplifying the breaking loose of the ball joint. I'll add this to my "to do" list.

Best regards,
Andrew

Andrew, I did mine years ago, per David's directions, with the car assembled. It was not awful at all. Just be careful, measure twice and drill once, and make damn sure you got the second hole spotted so the cross shaft will go back on.

Then take a sawzall and cut the ears off the brackets at a 45 degree angle right thru the middle of the original holes.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop/gsds.jpg

Tall ball joints are available here:
http://www.SCandC.com They are 1/2" taller than stock, and are made VERY well, VERY strong, a crome molly ball stud and 1050 body, aluminum cap. Tell Mark you talked to me on this forum.

DO NOT use these if you have done the Guldstrand mod.

I have a magazine article on my web page you can download that shows an in-car G Mod. It's pretty easy to do, but you need to cut off the top of the frame bracket to clear the stock A arm. an aftermarket upper A arm usually eliminates this need.
David
I believe Mark now has a taller (approx 1") BJ available too.

When I did my G-mod a number of years ago. I was very careful not to reomove any metal that I didn't need to. If you look at the articles you will see that you can keep your original location if you grind carefully. I found that I needed to grind more on the passenger side than the driver side but I can go back to the original location no problem.

David,

Today I spoke to Dick Guldstrand to ask if the front hole should drop .875 or 1.060, the two dimensions that are referenced with the template on your web site. He said that both holes should be relocated as low as possible, and shifted to the rear by .250. The lower the better.
This evening I removed the front wheels, popped the ball joints loose, and removed the upper a-arms in 75 minutes total time. It wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it might be. The a-arm bolts pop out easily by placing a socket over the head and pulling them out with a c-clamp. With the engine in place I couldn't swing a hammer to knock them out.
Another trick that I have learned is to loosen the castle nut on the ball joint, let the coil spring apply pressure, and heat the joint slightly with a MAPP gas torch. Once the joint warms up the ball joint pops loose. No "pickle fork" required.
All that's left is to locate and drill the holes, then reassemble everything. I'll write again, probably this weekend, to report the results.
This is fun!

Thanks,
Andrew

X33D80,

I figure that my cheap HFT, 4.5" angle grinder might get right up in there from the wheel well side fine!!

Maybe probably be better w/o headers tho??

pdq67

I too have a 4.5" angle grinder, but I don't know that I can get it in there. If I turn it upside down it may work to nip the top edge off the front of the bracket. I have a pneumatic die grinder too, it will get in there, but may take a while.
I want to remove minimal material to minimize damage to the frame and retain the option of remounting to the original location. With that in mind I may use Chicane7's dimensions of a .875 drop on the front hole. Considering that I won't be in any competitive racing, that should be effective enough.

Andrew

Tubular upper A arms make the Guldstrand mod much easier. The tubular arms clear the mount with no mods needed except for some cars needing a little notch somewhere.
Plus you get the added benefit of more positive caster without a lot of shims.
David

I know this will be seen as crude on a car site, but a good ole sawzall with a metal cutting blade will reach right in there.

Not at all Jim, I just don't have one!

I did cut my P/U's floor shifter hole out using a jig-saw tho.

Broke several blades is all but it worked fine..

pdq67

The Guldstrand Mod is complete. I spent a lot of time grinding yesterday afternoon and again this morning and had to remove more from the brackets than I thought I would. But I did retain the option of remounting back into the original holes. The difference under the hood isn't obvious. Typically, how thick will the shims be on the cross bar? My car hasn't been aligned since I bought it, and it came to me with no shims.

The car seems to be sitting slightly lower in the front now. I wasn't expecting that since the height is determined by the relationship between the lower a-arm and the coil spring. The upper a-arm doesn't support the weight of the car, but just guides the assembly, or so I think.

Considering all the clearance grinding I wonder how much benefit you would have on the handling of a street car if you moved the holes down only about 2/3 of the distance front and rear? Interference would be minimal and it should still give some improvement to the handling. Less drop will also keep from drilling the rear holes into the area that the mounting bracket starts its bend.

Nonetheless, my mod is done, and I look forward to soon testing it.

I think we all try to achieve about as flat a, (parallel to the ground as we can get it), lower A-arm as we can get for max. benefit here!

I know I tried to do it!

What do you say David??

pdq67

I went and looked under the spoiler, which is now about 6.5" off the floor, and saw that the lower a-arms do look about parallel to the floor. I believe everything is in order now, except for the front end alignment.
But first I must take the car in to have the Flowmaster exhaust welded up, then the headliner installed, then the installation of the whole interior. After the car is fully assembled, and weighted down, I'll get the front end aligned.

pdq67.
The Pro Motorsports spacers were developed for the makers second gen Camaro. That car has taller spindles and can tolerate the spacers better without as much movement of RCH. On a short second gen spindle, I would not ever do the Guldstrand mod and really, they go too far, they raise the UBJ 1 15/16"!

They also put a straight shank bolt in a tapered hole which I don't like.

It is much better to do the Guldstrand mod with stock upper balljoints.

Tylers spindes are a great way to go for those who want the maximum reasonable neg camber gain without having to drill holes in their subframe, in additon, they fix bumpsteer so you don't have to heat and bend the steering arms.

David

O.K. let me see if I am on the right page here. 1st, my Hotchkis TVS kit will be here Monday, so I will be looking to completely tear apart the front suspension soon. I am replacing the body bushings (poly-energy) -first. Adding the Hotchkiss Sub frame connectors - next. The replacing all the bushings, A-arms, and the ones that are supplied in the TVS kit. I plan on having the A-arms powdercoated while out.

Now - I do not plan on performing the G-Mod, BUT will the Tall Ball Joints be a wise install versus stock for additional handling benefit? I think the answer is yes after reading this thread twice, but want to make sure.

Thanks to all involved in this thread (esp. David P.)

If I had this to do over again, I would take (2) pair of spindles to a machine shop and have them cut so that they would fit back together such that the upper b/j was CORRECTLY raised like 1.25" or so and then have a CERTIFIED welder weld them back together and then have them heat-treated back stock as well as Mag'd, X-ray'd or whatever to guarantee their integrity.

I just don't understand why Heidlt's didn't make a stock undropped raised upper b/j spindle for us guys that DON'T want a dropped one?????

pdq67

I've been thinking about a cross arm design with offset mounting holes that would effectively drop the pivot point of the a-arm, but use the original mounting holes. I guess the negative part of this plan is the clearance still needed on the upper area of the brackets. Perhaps you could improve your handling some by dropping only about 1/2" and not require as much clearance grinding, if any.

O.K. let me see if I am on the right page here. 1st, my Hotchkis TVS kit will be here Monday, so I will be looking to completely tear apart the front suspension soon. I am replacing the body bushings (poly-energy) -first. Adding the Hotchkiss Sub frame connectors - next. The replacing all the bushings, A-arms, and the ones that are supplied in the TVS kit. I plan on having the A-arms powdercoated while out.

Now - I do not plan on performing the G-Mod, BUT will the Tall Ball Joints be a wise install versus stock for additional handling benefit? I think the answer is yes after reading this thread twice, but want to make sure.

Thanks to all involved in this thread (esp. David P.)

The taller upper balljoint is a good choice if you don't want to do the Guldstrand mod, another good mod is an aftermarket upper control arm which will allow you to achieve more positive caster. With stock upper arms, abour +3 deg caster is about it. With tubular upper arms from Global West, DSE or Speed Tech brand arms, you can get +5 deg caster pretty easily which helps keep the tire flat when cornering. High positive caster is what the late model cars use. If you don't have power steering stay with +3 deg or less.
David

If I had this to do over again, I would take (2) pair of spindles to a machine shop and have them cut so that they would fit back together such that the upper b/j was CORRECTLY raised like 1.25" or so and then have a CERTIFIED welder weld them back together and then have them heat-treated back stock as well as Mag'd, X-ray'd or whatever to guarantee their integrity.

I just don't understand why Heidlt's didn't make a stock undropped raised upper b/j spindle for us guys that DON'T want a dropped one?????

pdq67

Paul,
DSE made up a spindle like that for the "Twister". I think it was a Pontiac spindle.
David

I've been thinking about a cross arm design with offset mounting holes that would effectively drop the pivot point of the a-arm, but use the original mounting holes. I guess the negative part of this plan is the clearance still needed on the upper area of the brackets. Perhaps you could improve your handling some by dropping only about 1/2" and not require as much clearance grinding, if any.

Or use a tubular upper arm that will clear the brackets.
David

The taller upper balljoint is a good choice if you don't want to do the Guldstrand mod, another good mod is an aftermarket upper control arm which will allow you to achieve more positive caster. With stock upper arms, abour +3 deg caster is about it. With tubular upper arms from Global West, DSE or Speed Tech brand arms, you can get +5 deg caster pretty easily which helps keep the tire flat when cornering. High positive caster is what the late model cars use. If you don't have power steering stay with +3 deg or less.
David

I sorry to be a camaro/suspension novice. All my other classic's don't handle as well as my '04 F-150 - Sorry!

I DO have power steering. Does that mean that using the stock A-arms with tall ball joints is as effective as going with Global West upper arms?

Also, does the Global West A-arm provide as good as or better handling capabilities as the G-Mod?

If you answer is go with the Tubular A-arms, then I will spend another $600 and go that way. I just want to have the ability to bolt this car back to original condition.

Thanks again!