Any body using a Fatman subframe assembly?

I thought this was about pro-touring? Fatman is great for cruisers or showcars, but you can do much better elsewhere for your money in a PT application.

Their website states that their frame NARROWS the track width by 2"!!! What?? That is not what you want to increase lateral grip. My guess they do that so you can put a deeper dish front wheel on. That is all dandy if you want the look, however it increases scrub radius by 1" per side. That is another thing you do not want in your first gen. It also looks like the amount of negative camber is limited by the design of the mounts. That may or may not be an issue. It depends on the amount of design static camber.

You could put half the amount of the Fatman frame in your stock frame and have better performance.

Now thats what I want to hear, what would be the best set up for a nice P/T?

I plan to drive the crap out of mine, no garage or trailer queen here!

Cheapest solution would be better bushings and the G-mod. From there the sky is the limit on what you want to spend. You may want to check out ATS. There tall spindle allows you to use Corvette C5/C6 brakes and according to there numbers is better than the G-mod. They run around $700.00 a set and include new corvette hub bearings.

If you ask me ATS is the way to go. You get the camber and G-mod all for $700 and don't have to cut weld or anything just bolt on and you can use your stock subframe and upper and lower control arms. Just go witht he del-alum bushings in them. The next mod for me would be shocks, maybe the QA1 coil overs or set of bilstien or Koni's. You can do front and rear brakes, ATS spindles, bushings and good shocks for less than 3K. Then all you need is wheels and skys the limit there. Call ATS, that set up with C5 brakes is the best bang for the buck in my book. I will be using it on my at some point. Only draw back is you need to use the true c5 brake which makes it nessary to have a TRUE 17 inch wheel. Not a wheel witha 16 inch center and 17 inch outer.

Joe

If were going to subframe a Camaro it would go with Detroit Speeds subframe. Now the way I went was a GW coil over conversion, GW upper and lower control arms, Hotchkis front sway bar and a Uni-Steer R&P, with Baer brakes. I'm going to ATS this winter for their spindles and DSE subframe connectors (I'm removing GW's not that their bad but because I have a vert and I'm installing a LS7 so I need more stiffness). For a driver though you cant go wrong with GW or DSE or even Hotchkiss. By going with Fatman or Hiedts your getting a wow factory but nothing better than the stock setup. You can modify the stock sub to do anything you really want for a hard driver. The only limitation on the stocker without allot of modding is not being able to run a 275 up front. Do you want to spend your cash for bragging rights or to really tear up the road? Their are allot of real fast cars on and off the track running the stock subframe and rear leafs. Just get real good parts from the better mfgs. I have been done the road, still there always changing this or that. If I can help let me know.

I want mine to be like a slot car, Tear up the roads of coarse!

Its also a vert. Gonna have to stiffen her up.

I want mine to be like a slot car, Tear up the roads of coarse!

Its also a vert. Gonna have to stiffen her up.


Theres allot you can do, I think I have made every mistake what have you done so far? Maybe I can save you some headaches and cash.

NOT a thing my friend, got it under a blue tarp, Planning ahead, looking for ideas!:thumbsup:

If you want a parts list for IMHO what would be the ultimate set up for a first gen subframe here it is.

DSE coilover conversion
GW upper control arms
ATS tall spindle
Hotckis front sway bar
DSE or ATS power steering box
Wilwood, Stoptec or Brembo 13" 6 piston front brakes
Koni, Bilstien or Penske shocks
600lb front springs for Al headed SBC
GW lower control arm del-a-lum bushings for stock lowers

Start by putting the coilover kit so the holes match the factory mounting location. The advantage of the kit it it opens the door for a wider range of performance shock/spring combos as well as height adjustability. You want it in the factory location because the ATS spindle and GW uppers were designed around that location. If you were to put it at DSEs location you would end up with overly aggressive geometry. The GW uppers for the bushings and added caster. The ATS tall spindle for the much improved camber gain and the ability to use any C6 brake package.

There is a reason why two of the leaders(ATS and DSE) for first gen suspension do not offer a rack and pinion. They cannot make one peform as good as an updated steering box for that application. That is not to say that R&P cannot be better in the right platform but, there are too many packaging issues is a first gen to do it right.

Depending on the brake and shock package all of that can hit the 6000 mark. You can get damn good perfomance as well as knocking down the cost somewhat by knocking out the DSE coilover kit, using correctly valved Bilsteins and a factory C6 brakes. That will be around 3000.

Brian

DSE subframe with R&P

http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Product/subframe_pic.jpg

If you want a parts list for IMHO what would be the ultimate set up for a first gen subframe here it is.

DSE coilover conversion
GW upper control arms
ATS tall spindle
Hotckis front sway bar
DSE or ATS power steering box
Wilwood, Stoptec or Brembo 13" 6 piston front brakes
Koni, Bilstien or Penske shocks
600lb front springs for Al headed SBC
GW lower control arm del-a-lum bushings for stock lowers

Start by putting the coilover kit so the holes match the factory mounting location. The advantage of the kit it it opens the door for a wider range of performance shock/spring combos as well as height adjustability. You want it in the factory location because the ATS spindle and GW uppers were designed around that location. If you were to put it at DSEs location you would end up with overly aggressive geometry. The GW uppers for the bushings and added caster. The ATS tall spindle for the much improved camber gain and the ability to use any C6 brake package.

There is a reason why two of the leaders(ATS and DSE) for first gen suspension do not offer a rack and pinion. They cannot make one peform as good as an updated steering box for that application. That is not to say that R&P cannot be better in the right platform but, there are too many packaging issues is a first gen to do it right.

Depending on the brake and shock package all of that can hit the 6000 mark. You can get damn good perfomance as well as knocking down the cost somewhat by knocking out the DSE coilover kit, using correctly valved Bilsteins and a factory C6 brakes. That will be around 3000.

Brian

Brian, thats a good list but I would go GW coil over kit, its just as good as DSE's (IMO), and go with a Uni-Steer R&P. You also forgot Baer Brakes, if your not going all out racing those are more than enough. I also would add that grinding and rewelding the subframe and it would be just as good as the best aftermarket and better than most aftermarket subframe available. Its only downfall would be weight and not being able to run 275 fronts without further mods. Dont forget to run Del-A-Lum on all of the suspension pieces and sold subfame mounts. DSE's subframe connectors cant be beat either. I'm running QA-1's and they are starting to amaze allot of people at how god they are. For the rear I would deep tub it, use a DSE relocating kit with GW Catagory 5 rear springs.

[B]ZZ430DropTop67[B] Looked at your pictures, How does your car handle,Thats about what I am looking to do, And how stiff is your body (flex) No shots of frame ties.
Great stock look with attude!

DSE subframe with R&P

http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Product/subframe_pic.jpg

I did not take the new DSE subframe because I was talking about the stock sub. DSE made it work because the R&P taken into account with the design.

MStennes,

I agree the QA1s are an option, but the DSE kit opens up much, much better shocks for the front end.

Brian

I did not take the new DSE subframe because I was talking about the stock sub. DSE made it work because the R&P taken into account with the design.

MStennes,

I agree the QA1s are an option, but the DSE kit opens up much, much better shocks for the front end.

Brian

Brian,
I agree but I didnt know what to think on QA-1's when I first got them and low and behold their pretty dang good, I have ran Bilsteins and inmo I think the QA-1's were just as good if not better, I like the adjustability. The way I look at it at a certain point if your hard core racing/track use it gets to be a point where all it is, is bragging rights. My car being a convertable there is only so much you can do. I have talked to a few people who have actually talked me out of ding things as the gain was not there unless I was going to race my car. I swaer I have been down that raod twice and now I'm getting ready for a refit..... As far as getting straight answers no one can beat Tyler at ATS even if its not his product he will tell you.
Thanks,
Mike

[B]ZZ430DropTop67[B] Looked at your pictures, How does your car handle,Thats about what I am looking to do, And how stiff is your body (flex) No shots of frame ties.
Great stock look with attude!

Well, I think it handles pretty good.

The convertible flex really was looking like an issue of course. I just welded in some coupe SFC's from Competition Engineering. This was done years before the nice stuff from DSE was available.

It could be stiffer for sure. What I'd like is a full cage, :) but it's fine for what I use the car for. In the 7 years the car has been done, I only ran it once at an open track day. Not surprisingly, it pushed a little going in, and somewhat loose coming out....but nothing that scared me, and that I couldn't control with the gas pedal. I kept the alignment specs streetable with tire wear in mind. I imagine with some tweaking it would improve.

On the street, it rides like one would expect with coilovers. 400# springs are a good compromise. The car is more at home on the twisting mountain roads that I enjoy with it.

But the strong point of the whole car is stability and steering response. The "roadrace" Martz chassis is "quirky". The wheelbase is 1" longer. This was done so the oil pan/balancer would clear the power rack (Still very close).

I wasn't crazy about having to trim the fender extensions so the front wheels would turn though.

It's obviously not it the same league as the DSE or Wayne Due, but the price wasn't crippling either.

I think you can save about $300.00 on brakes going with touring classics brakes and not bear. Same stuff different name as I understand. And tha't for the fronts. The saving might be more than that, but I don't know. Tyler at ATS recomended them when we spoke. I don't think he wouldrecomend junk. He also said that to use his spindle you CAN NOT use the hybrid kit you have to use the C5 kit and the C5 kit is cheaper when you used the ATS spindle because you don't have to buy the caliper brakets. The other thing not to forget is the ATS spindle lowers the car about 1 1/2 inchs .

I am not even close to buying parts for mine but this is the route I want to go. Do your self a huge favor and call Tyler at ATS he is a cool guy and will help you out over the phone with out issue. I have found the same to be true of Touring Classics. I have never called DSE but have spoken to them at Super Chevy and they are very good people also. They make some nice stuff, but I don't have the funds for some of it and I think there is some stuff that works just as good but is cheaper. The DSE stuff sure looks nice in person and they have some excellent enginnering that is getting robbed to be sold cheaper. It's hard to over look that but from a cash flow standpoint and being able to afford my project I have to look the other way at some point.

Joe

Do your self a huge favor and call Tyler at ATS he is a cool guy and will help you out over the phone with out issue.
Joe

Well said +1

DSE subframe with R&P

http://www.detroitspeed.com/images/Product/subframe_pic.jpg

Do your self a huge favor and call Tyler at ATS he is a cool guy and will help you out over the phone with out issue.

Joe

Do you guys have links for these. I wont be starting mine for at least 6 months, Want to find the best products "Want to do it right the first time"!

Do these come as complete systems?

ATS= www.t56kit.com
DSE= www.detroitspeed.com

ATS= www.t56kit.com
DSE= www.detroitspeed.com

:cool: Thanks I'll check it out.

:cool: Thanks I'll check it out.

GW - www.globalwest.net

TCI , Total Cost Involved has a new sub-frame as well.
www.hartrods.com is very reasonable

I think you can save about $300.00 on brakes going with touring classics brakes and not bear. Same stuff different name as I understand. And tha't for the fronts. The saving might be more than that, but I don't know...
Joe
Baer's can be had for a lot less $$ if you shop around.