It seems that I've stumbled across a '69 BB Pace Car convertible. The VIN sequence is 623007. The cowl tag shows it as an actual 03E Z11. The VIN on the firewall matches the dash tag. The rear end is BV0321G2 (4.10 w/posi). The original heavy duty springs (G36 option, I think) are still intact. There are heavy duty motor mounts that appear to be original. Other indications exist such as an X-O grease pencil mark on the truck divider behind the right rear passenger seat, high RPM tach, dash clock, power top switch... The original motor is long gone, but the car did come with a 396/350 from a '69 Chevelle that was also built in March.

So, if this car is restored properly, with every nut and bolt scrutized, each body panel replaced with NOS parts, how much might it be worth?

Thanks in advance for your reponses!

Jeff

So, if this car is restored properly, with every nut and bolt scrutized, each body panel replaced with NOS parts, how much might it be worth?


I should think that an original BB pace car in number one condition would bring in about $100K to 120K. Double that figure at the Barrett Jackson auction.

Jeff is this the tag from the car?

http://www.cpresto.com/images/misc/fakez11 tag.jpg

99.99% sure it is. (I remember the VIN)

The tag is a reproduction tag. I suspect that the car MAY have been a real Pace Car at it's birth, but that isn't it's original tag, or even a real tag for that matter. Not having a real trim tag KILLS the value and puts the whole car into question. Buyer beware!

I should think that an original BB pace car in number one condition would bring in about $100K to 120K. Double that figure at the Barrett Jackson auction.

120K? (double that at BJ? 240K?) - hmmm - please show me a 69 Pace Car Z11 that has sold for that much. Haven't heard of that.

Most BB pace cars I have seen hover in the $65K-$75K range.

120K? (double that at BJ? 240K?) - hmmm - please show me a 69 Pace Car Z11 that has sold for that much. Haven't heard of that.

I agree....
If anything the prices are lower then they were 6 months ago.
I think that they are going to continue to drop a bit.
$45K to $75K All done... tops, unless it is a L78.

Stay away from that one...

Jeff is this the tag from the car?

http://www.cpresto.com/images/misc/fakez11 tag.jpg

99.99% sure it is. (I remember the VIN)

The tag is a reproduction tag. I suspect that the car MAY have been a real Pace Car at it's birth, but that isn't it's original tag, or even a real tag for that matter. Not having a real trim tag KILLS the value and puts the whole car into question. Buyer beware!

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your response. No money has changed hands yet. Can you describe to me what you see that tells you that this is a fake tag?

Thanks
Jeff

Jeff, please click on the following link and you can download the decoder for your future use:
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml

Click (or Shift-Click) to download the first-generation Camaro Cowl Tag Decoder in zip format, version 3.68

Jeff, please click on the following link and you can download the decoder for your future use:
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml

Click (or Shift-Click) to download the first-generation Camaro Cowl Tag Decoder in zip format, version 3.68

The trim tag decoded fine. Built 5th week of March, Orange Houndstooth interior, dover white with white top, Z11 pace car convertible.

So, what's wrong with the trim tag?

Jeff,please understand that if guys told how they know the tag was fake, the bad guys could make the changes to make them perfect.

Jeff,please understand that if guys told how they know the tag was fake, the bad guys could make the changes to make them perfect.


Ok, could someone call me to explain how the tag is fake? If so, my number is 703.283.8038. Thanks!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-1969-CAMERO-PACE-CAR-RARE-396-410-Z11-4-SPEED_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6161QQitemZ461120 6778QQrdZ1

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73607

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69425

If it is this (124379N623007) car, there is practically no doubt that it was a pace car, can't say what engine it had though.. You can tell by all or the original paint, but since it has a fake cowl tag once it's restored and all the original parts are replaced, there will always be a question about its originality.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-1969-CAMERO-PACE-CAR-RARE-396-410-Z11-4-SPEED_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6161QQitemZ461120 6778QQrdZ1

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73607

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69425

If it is this (124379N623007) car, there is practically no doubt that it was a pace car, can't say what engine it had though.. You can tell by all or the original paint, but since it has a fake cowl tag once it's restored and all the original parts are replaced, there will always be a question about its originality.

Thanks Mark. I'm going to trust the general consensus that the tag is a repro. It seems too bad since everything else appears to point to a true PC.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-1969-CAMERO-PACE-CAR-RARE-396-410-Z11-4-SPEED_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6161QQitemZ461120 6778QQrdZ1

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73607

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69425

If it is this (124379N623007) car, there is practically no doubt that it was a pace car, can't say what engine it had though.. You can tell by all or the original paint, but since it has a fake cowl tag once it's restored and all the original parts are replaced, there will always be a question about its originality.

The gentleman that checked out the car said that the firewall even had all of the correct holes with the proper diameters, including the relay for the cowl induction. So, such a shame. Thanks everyone for saving my a**!

Jeff,

As stated by another member, we typically do not discuss the flaws in repro trim tags in public forums. That car has been through EBay 3 or more times like Mark C has shown. We have discussed it here a few times, and everyone has agreed that the tag is fake. I am glad that you checked in here before making a costly mistake. If you find another one, post pictures of the tag, the VIN, and any other numbers in the Tag Team section and someone will gladly check them out.

Good luck in your search for the ultimate muscle car (69 Pace Car) (IMO) :)

Jeff,

As stated by another member, we typically do not discuss the flaws in repro trim tags in public forums. That car has been through EBay 3 or more times like Mark C has shown. We have discussed it here a few times, and everyone has agreed that the tag is fake. I am glad that you checked in here before making a costly mistake. If you find another one, post pictures of the tag, the VIN, and any other numbers in the Tag Team section and someone will gladly check them out.

Good luck in your search for the ultimate muscle car (69 Pace Car) (IMO) :)

Thanks again Bill. Something told me that it seemed too good to be true. :(

Hello Camaro friends,

I'm the guy who saw this PC in the flesh. Jeff mentioned what I found out as far as the firewall holes and they were all legit. Anyway, I've been restoring these cars for 20 yrs and this one almost got me. I think I got too tied up with the cars other issues and missed the one thing I really needed to look for. I am greatfull to Jeff and all you fellow enthusiasts who caught the one thing I missed about the tag. It's a shame since I do believe that after seeing it, it once was a beautiful 396 4spd PC. The BV rear axle was questionable since the pinion gear had a 2-69 date and the ring gear had a 3-69 date. They're usually machined as a matched set. That one had me stumped, but they were 4:10's. The seller also was not too forthcoming with detailed info after I pressed him, he played dumb and almost played me. I'm glad I got the info in time. I guess you can always learn something new and I thought I knew a bunch about these Camaros. It's a real shame the tag is not original. Oh well. Thank you all once again.

Nick @ Mid West Classics & Customs

I had heard a rumor, that the original tag from that car is on a clone IPC.
It is floating around somewhere... Will be interesting when it finally turns up.
A shame really, because that one likely is a real BB IPC.:(

If that trim tag is fake, can someone post a pic of a real tag?

Thanks
Marty

If that trim tag is fake, can someone post a pic of a Z11 real tag?

Thanks
Marty

I believe that is the car where the owner told me he had a guy restoring the car and that he found out the guy was switching out parts behind his back. He found out the guy had taken the original rear end and put a 10 bolt in and had to threaten the guy with the cops to get his 12 bolt back...the assumption is that the guy doing the work got a trim tags inc reproduction tag and put it on the car and of course the owner was none the wiser until the car was in the public eye via ebay and we ended up discussing the car on this site .....

This is fascinating! I'm new to this site. I looked at the picture of the tag and compared it to mine. (the car's right behind me in the garage) I can't tell that there's anything wrong with it. It looks just like mine. Norwood car too. I know mines legit because I bought it new.
But as a retired cop, I know the value of never telling anti-theft/fraud secrets.

I believe that is the car where the owner told me he had a guy restoring the car and that he found out the guy was switching out parts behind his back. He found out the guy had taken the original rear end and put a 10 bolt in and had to threaten the guy with the cops to get his 12 bolt back...the assumption is that the guy doing the work got a trim tags inc reproduction tag and put it on the car and of course the owner was none the wiser until the car was in the public eye via ebay and we ended up discussing the car on this site .....

Doesn't look to me that anyone has started, or tried to restore that thing....EVER. http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/nopity.gif