http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280051616483&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

Man this car is far better than what I just bought for a project...and it's scrap metal without a vin which is going on a new 'vert. Sad really, I'm sure it's rougher than it looks, but it IS a shame.

Eh, probably me overreacting, but I'd loved to have that one over mine!

Nice of them to leave (don't see any areas of the firewall cut out) the two hidden VINs on this car. Someday there are going to be two camaros with the same VIN running around. This body doesn't appear all that bad, wonder why someone decided to get a replacement body.

Its sure looks like its not a bad car..and I agree with you. I don't think its legal here in Massachusetts to do what he is doing as far as swapping VIN and Trim tags, well atleast the VIN. Its a shame that that car is going to be a rebody with original Vin. They may even make it something it wasn't by having a new trim tag made. This needs to be looked into so....

Kev

It's hard to believe that it would cost more to fix this body than to buy a repro body...

Holy identity theft! That car was very repairable, what a shame indeed. It did not warrent removing its true identity. True there will be two cars with vin issues now. The new one will be listed as a survivor car, Ha Ha

I cannot believe this guy is using the VIN on an entire new framed vehicle. It makes me sick to see what some of the people in this hobby will do for a buck. The car they are building never has been, nor ever will be either a Camaro or a 69 Camaro or anything else Chevrolet. It is a kit car, nothing more, nothing less with a VIN hacked off a real car. How would you like to be the guy who buys a nice 69 Camaro Vert then find out years later its a newly manufactured kit that someone welded or riveted a VIN onto?

This is the same type of person who has invaded the Mopar world and is now playing havoc with the originality of specific models and their inherant values. As a group Camaro owners should take a stand against this now before alot of the original cars are no longer any different than a thinner steel remanufactured car made in a modern factory.

That must be the first body restoration that, that shop has done, because they will have more time in aligning panels etc (from what I have heard) than just fixing the old body ! But then again, the owner just wants to say "A brand new, body."

Shame, thats a damn nice car to work with. Id kick him where the sun doesnt shine if i met him.

Now that's a real shame, what a dumb thing to do. I wonder if it's not too late to stop him? They obviously have no idea what they're actually doing. If they were to sell the shell, re-attach the vin & cowl tag to the original car and put the money from the shell into restoring that, they would be much farther ahead, and have something of real value when they were done. I only wish my car was as solid as that one when I started.

Edit: I see he ended the auction - hopefully he changed his mind (or convinced his customer)

Here we go...

Q: Your E Bay car has two hidden VIN numbers. So obviously you can't put that cars VIN on another car. I have a colleague that works for MA DOT. I'll inform him of what your shop is doing as it's just slightly illegal...ok, very illegal.
Nov-21-06

A: Sir, with all due respect, I understand your position. I agree with you that vin swapping is extremely illegal under unlawfull circumstances, and I, as well as our shop do not condone anything illegal. A customer has brought me a brand new 1969 camaro shell as a restoration part to replace the sheet metal on his rusted car.(these new Camaro shells are widely available from a number of catalogs and are made by Dynacorn) Part of what I am replacing contains the vin and trim tag which has to be removed. The owner of both car and shell has proof of ownership. The new shell itself also has an ID tag. As far as this particular car we are building is concerned, once it starts looking like a car, part of our protocol is to contact the Mass DOT and take the appropriate measures in order to proceed to register this car, whether it is with it's new ID or with the old existing VIN. Moreover, this car is being specifically sold as parts. It is not being sold as a car. I did not realize that my wording in the ad would create such response. I will be cancelling this ad, and relisting it with more specific wording. Please call me if you have more insight on this matter. 508-641-5442

Kev

I e mailed him wondering how he'd deal with having two cars with the exact same VIN. I got an identical response...

Sir, with all due respect, I understand your position. I agree with you that vin swapping is extremely illegal under unlawfull circumstances, and I, as well as our shop do not condone anything illegal. A customer has brought me a brand new 1969 camaro shell as a restoration part to replace the sheet metal on his rusted car.(these new Camaro shells are widely available from a number of catalogs and are made by Dynacorn) Part of what I am replacing contains the vin and trim tag which has to be removed. The owner of both car and shell has proof of ownership. The new shell itself also has an ID tag. As far as this particular car we are building is concerned, once it starts looking like a car, part of our protocol is to contact the Mass DOT and take the appropriate measures in order to proceed to register this car, whether it is with it's new ID or with the old existing VIN. Moreover, this car is being specifically sold as parts. It is not being sold as a car. I did not realize that my wording in the ad would create such response. I will be cancelling this ad, and relisting it with more specific wording. Please call me if you have more insight on this matter.

He sent me a follow up after his initial e mail. Sounds like an ok guy. Maybe just didn't know any better.

Dear Sir, after our email exchange I contacted and visited the State Police DOT Vehicle ID reassignment and theft unit. Since this is the first (new Camaro Project) we have done here at the shop, I thought this would be a perfect opportunity to see how this car would be registered and titled after it is completed. I spoke to State Trooper McAnulty of that division and he informed me that this car will be inspected and titiled as a replica 69 Camaro when the time comes. He also told me that I need to retain the title trim tag and Vin off the donor car as to provide proof of purchase of all the used parts that went into the build. Obviously, receipts for all new parts including point of origin of the new tub will have to be provided as well. I took your email very seriously as we are a reputable shop and would not by any means condone or do anything that would be against the law. I spoke to the cars owner regarding this matter and this car for parts will not be relisted on ebay. Thanks for the information and I apologize for my misswording.

You should point him in the direction of this forum, and send him some links to the threads dealing with those shells. He'll probably change his mind and restore the original body.

Edit: I emailed him as well and gave him some links to a couple threads dealing with the dynacorn body.

this does bring up some interesting thoughts.

Assuming that the new body shell is a reproduction part, or a repair part (which I think we have all agreed that it is), and you can legally transfer the original vehicles VIN and trim tag over to it.

What exactly are you required to do with the remaining shell? I hardly think the intent of the law would be to sell it for parts, at least not as intact as the one in this auction is. I see no issues with selling the fenders doors, hood and other removable parts, but what about the tub itself, especially if the hidden VINs still remain attached to it?

I am surprised the seller said he was told by Mass. DOT to retain the VIN as proof of where he got the parts for the rebody, sorry, reconstruction. I was under the impression that the VIN by Federal law could not be seperated from the original vehicle. I guess I learned something new.

I'll bet he was told to get the Vin number (as in write it down) off the donar car (to prove he is not taking parts off of a stolen car). This is done in Ga when rebuilding a Salvage car. I think the Vin is required to stay with the original body. I dont think he should "retain" the vin, just write it down for future reference to prove where he got the parts. Then he would be free to sell the shell, with Vin attached.

Assuming all this is on the up&up, he should keep that parts car until all is said & done with the vin/title. (he might want some parts too) My $.02

Why is everone so concerned over someone elses business ??? If someone wants to scrap an old 69 vert so be it. I've scrapped my fair share. This guy has gone thru the correct channels and is doing as he's told to do by the state police and some people think they know better ?????. I dont want to stirr up to much **** but i dissagree with all of you. I see nothing wrong with switching all the hardware over and in the end do a vin and tag swap. Have the car "certified" by the DOT and call it a day. If you really want to get fancy , maybe institute a law of destruction. Proof of the main vehicles shell being destroyed ??? AKA.... the dreaded hidden VINS. What good is the new body if you cant ???? Again...... please tell me what happens when someone changes the cowl and dash on their #'s matching copo car because of rust ??? No more hidden vins, OH NO !!!!! Its no longer real or legal ??? Call the junk man !!!! Or better yet call the COPS !!! The body man who performed the work should be JAILED !!!! This ****s pathetic. Sorry if i offended anyone, this subject just really bothers me.

And by the way....JMO

Thanks for listening....


bob

This is an old topic and has been covered before. But I thought I'd give a brief summery of what has already been discussed. While this may seem very immoral to most....it is not illegal. I personally called the US DMV and spoke with a representative about his very matter. The official stand of the US government (and he said the states can not override this ruling) that the new shell are considered a replacement part and refereed me to this article:

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+369+0++()%20%20A ND

The main important thing in this is the statement that says who may tamper with a VIN and I quote:

"a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,

obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary

for the repair;"


Again I do understand the concerns, I am merely posting to say that it is not illegal...immoral maybe....but not illegal.

Well, personally I don't see anything wrong with what he's doing, and it's certainly his business. If his customer brought him a numbers matching Yenko and paid him to cut it up into very small pieces it would be nobodys business but his and his customers. It is after all, his (or his customers) personal property, with which he can do as he pleases - as long as the car isn't misrepresented when they go to sell it. That being said, I think the majority of the posters on this thread were commenting on it being a shame to basically scrap that very nice looking shell in order to create more work for themselves using the dynacorn body, and have something of questionable value when it was complete. That is the nature of the email I sent him. I think we can all agree we like to see original first gen camaros saved when possible, not turned into scrap metal. We as a group have some experience with these things, I think it's nice to help others when we see them possibly making a mistake, as long as we do it tactfully. I've had strangers step in when they saw me bidding on questionable items on ebay (a water pump pulley with an elongated hole that I didn't notice for example), and have been very appreciative of the information they gave me, hopefully this guy feels the same. If not, he's free to ignore us. That's my two cents worth, anyhow.

This is an old topic and has been covered before. But I thought I'd give a brief summery of what has already been discussed. While this may seem very immoral to most....it is not illegal. I personally called the US DMV and spoke with a representative about his very matter. The official stand of the US government (and he said the states can not override this ruling) that the new shell are considered a replacement part and refereed me to this article:

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+369+0++()%20%20A ND

The main important thing in this is the statement that says who may tamper with a VIN and I quote:



Again I do understand the concerns, I am merely posting to say that it is not illegal...immoral maybe....but not illegal.

I dont know who you talked to, there isnt a US DMV. Anyway, the US Code was for the "repair" of a vehicle that has to be "reasonable" in scope. The Dynacorn body is also NOT a shell and comes with a frame. Once a frame AND sheetmetal becomes involved in a replacement of a car you have to deal with "Assembled Vehicle" laws that most states have.

Whats wrong with whats he doing? Ever checked the available replacement sheet metal against original? Thickness? Do you really think that once the change-over is done that the buyer will be told what he REALLY has? Would you pay top dollar for a 69 Convertible RS/SS big block car with a fresh paintjob and great looking metal and be happy to find out you bought a Dynacorn body with an attached VIN??? The answer to what is wrong is what will destroy our hobby - FRAUD and GREED.

IMO

Would you pay top dollar for a 69 Convertible RS/SS big block car with a fresh paintjob and great looking metal and be happy to find out you bought a Dynacorn body with an attached VIN??? - FRAUD and GREED. IMO


Yes i would pay top dollar and be happy doing so "if i had the money". I'd love to have one of these bodys instead of some old clapped out "original" body. It wouldnt bother me a bit, and done nicely i might even pay more :thumbsup:

How do you figure GREED into this ???? :rolleyes: The body cost 10k and the labor to make it nice is immense. Thats not greedy to me... thats common sense. Old rusted crap or nice new body ?????? I'll take the nice new body any day AND I"M A BODY MAN !!!!!!


JMO and i'm stickin to it :thumbsup:



bob

THANK YOU DYNACORN!!!!!

If the hobby isn't screwed up enough.....:sad:

Fraud from saying a dynacorn 69 style body is a real 69 Camaro Vert when its not. Why would someone do this and use a real VIN instead of the MSO and get a state VIN? Because the original REAL 69 is worth more DOLLARS to more people than a KIT CAR.

Fraud from saying a dynacorn 69 style body is a real 69 Camaro Vert when its not. Why would someone do this and use a real VIN instead of the MSO and get a state VIN? Because the original REAL 69 is worth more DOLLARS to more people than a KIT CAR.

Because it is a "LICENED GM RESTORATION PART". Period.

Ask goodmark/dynacorn how many frame rails they have sold? Tops, Firewalls, Cowls, floors, trunks? By your logic, there are a lot of "kit cars" out there, especially "supercars". Copos and the like were meant for one thing. To run, and run hard. Tubbed. Smashed. Blown. Rolled. You name it, many of them have the above parts replaced. Are you saying that whatever% of these cars are also kit cars?

If not, then again, how much metal is too much? How much before you consider it a kit car?

Again, I still say that a 69 6banger and a ZL1 are the same car. The difference is the driveline and some suspension. That, and the history is what made the car special. What's more real:

1. A Dynacorn Body with a real 1969 ZL1 driveline, that was raced in the day
or
2. A ZL1 body with a generic Big Block?

How come when someone buys a "Z" and it turns out to have a fake tag, everyone screams that the buyer should have done his due dilligence. When it comes to the bodies though, it's "Oh, Fraud"? Usually those same people have cars that have had at least floors and quarters replaced.

The cars that have # matching (and born with) drivelines AND now bodies will always be worth more.

IMO, these bodies are nothing more than anagalous(sp) to replacement blocks.

Always a very controversial topic....

I am surprised the seller said he was told by Mass. DOT to retain the VIN as proof of where he got the parts for the rebody, sorry, reconstruction. I was under the impression that the VIN by Federal law could not be seperated from the original vehicle. I guess I learned something new.

That is what he said, may not be what actually happened. You are taking his word.


Why is everone so concerned over someone elses business ??? If someone wants to scrap an old 69 vert so be it. I've scrapped my fair share. This guy has gone thru the correct channels and is doing as he's told to do by the state police and some people think they know better ?????. I dont want to stirr up to much **** but i dissagree with all of you. I see nothing wrong with switching all the hardware over and in the end do a vin and tag swap. Have the car "certified" by the DOT and call it a day. If you really want to get fancy , maybe institute a law of destruction. Proof of the main vehicles shell being destroyed ??? AKA.... the dreaded hidden VINS. What good is the new body if you cant ???? Again...... please tell me what happens when someone changes the cowl and dash on their #'s matching copo car because of rust ??? No more hidden vins, OH NO !!!!! Its no longer real or legal ??? Call the junk man !!!! Or better yet call the COPS !!! The body man who performed the work should be JAILED !!!! This ****s pathetic. Sorry if i offended anyone, this subject just really bothers me.

Because this is a passionate subject for many.

Let's look at the Shelby cobra for an example. The original is worth more than the kit car. Real camaro guys will be able to tell the dynacorn from the true camaro. The average joe is going to get hosed on these vin swaps only to find out later that he has a nice, shiny, new kit car. If the kit car is worth the same you wouldn't see these swaps happen. I like the fact that they make these bodies, (there were only so many of the best looking car ever made built) but let's call them what they are "Kit 69" or "69IAMPOSUER" anything but a 1969 camaro. Help me out guys, what does a "chop shop" do?

Custom Built Car Registration

Registering a custom-built car in Massachusetts isn't easy. The Massachusetts Registry of Motor Vehicles is going to want to inspect the vehicle before it will issue a title. And to pass the inspection, you need to be able to document every part used in building the vehicle, to make sure that no stolen parts are used. Remember this if you buy used parts, especially over the Internet. No receipts, no tile or registration. It's that simple.

The process works like this:

* Once your vehicle is ready for inspection, you should call the RMV telephone center to schedule an appointment.

* Make sure all of your receipts are available for the inspector.

* If you pass the inspection, the inspector can issue your vehicle a VIN number, which will allow you to apply to the RMV for a title.

* You can then go through the regular titling, registration and inspection process.

There are tons of potential traps here. If you're building a custom street rod or motorcycle, you should be doing research in advance to make sure your vehicle will pass the inspection process and that you don't run into any unforeseen difficulties at inspection time.

If you aren't part of a local custom car or vehicle club, consider joining one to help expand your knowledge base before you talk to the RMV.
How Custom-built Vehicle Registration may be Changing

The Massachusetts State Legislature is currently considering identical bills in the House and Senate that would change the way custom-built autos and street rods are registered and licensed in Massachusetts. The bills―H.B. 2156 and H.B. 2212―would provide for the following changes:

* Provide specific registration classes and license plates for street rods and custom-built cars.

* Allow a replica vehicle to be assigned the same model year designation as the production vehicle it most closely resembles.

* Establish specific safety inspection procedures for street rods and custom-built cars based on criteria established by the National Street Rod Association.

* Hold street rods and custom vehicles to equipment standards specified by law during the model year listed on the title of the vehicle.

* Exempt street rods and customs from state emissions inspections.

* Provide for a one-time registration fee of $25 for street rods and customs.

The bill is currently being reviewed in committee and will likely come up for a vote in the fall of 2006. Contact your state legislator if you want to share support or opposition to the bill.

I dont know who you talked to, there isn't a US DMV.

Sorry I used the wrong tletters.... Here is the info:

I found this by calling the DOT at 202-366-4000. I talked to David Colman and he explained it all and pointed me to the web page. I spoke to him at length and ask all the questions that needed to be asked, and he assured me that this is not illegal. By all means do the research yourself. But go straight to the sources, do not rely on hear say or common misconception that you can not remove a VIN tag.


Everyone wants to think the only reason a "new" body would be used is to defraud....when in reality it just makes good economic sense or helps the guy (with little welding skills) building a car in his home garage a way to build a rust free car.

Original bodies with GM sheetmetal will never go to the scrapyard.

I am actually pretty familiar with the US Code on VIN replacement and removal. The US Code allows for VIN detachement for "reasonable repairs" which has not been defined by Case Law yet. The site for the law info is http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html .

My problem is that if someone wants a new bodied car like a 69 Camaro Vert, and now available as well a 57 Vert then use the MSO. The only reason to use an original VIN is to convince someone other than the "rebodier" that the car is an original. Every state in the union has state issued VINs for kit cars and constructed vehicles but we all know that those who are rebodying a car dont want to be identified as anything other than an original. If its not such an important thing to be identified as an original then why not use the MSO
? The answer is $$$$$$$$$.

I am actually pretty familiar with the US Code on VIN replacement and removal. The US Code allows for VIN detachement for "reasonable repairs" which has not been defined by Case Law yet. The site for the law info is http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html .

The only reason to use an original VIN is to convince someone other than the "rebodier" that the car is an original. Every state in the union has state issued VINs for kit cars and constructed vehicles but we all know that those who are rebodying a car dont want to be identified as anything other than an original. If its not such an important thing to be identified as an original then why not use the MSO
? The answer is $$$$$$$$$.

You hit the nail on the head.
If its not a 69 camaro why should it be registered as such? Value, Emissions Testing, Safety Standards of today and so on. If people go through the trouble of rebuilding a rust bucket, it is still the original car with new panels. If someone gets a New Body and simply re-vins it, then its vin swapping which is not legal as far as I know. Yes, some exceptions are allowed however the DMV, State Police and others are involved to insure its legit. There is nothing wrong with a Kit Car, Homemade or whatever car. Its a car registered and titled with the Manufacturer Certificate of Origin numbers.
Kev

I've always wondered how much money is actually to be made? Is it cheaper to build one from scratch the buy one done? Maybe if using all cheap stuff, bad body work, etc. I've worked up the quick numbers and I can buy a very nice 69 vert for less. The most expensive one on EBay is 55k and it's more of a high end pro touring car. Lots of them for 20-30k. If you want a real accurate RS/SS vert clone, it's got to cost at least this from scratch? I know guys who have 10k+ in drivetrain. We all know how espensive period correct parts are for these cars. I don't think it's a money thing. If it was, buy a nice 6 banger, swap the vin/tag with a V8 X11, and sell it. Destroying the vert in this post and bulding one from scratch does not seem like a move to make if making money was your goal. Seems like a guy who has some $$ and want's the new body just to say he has one. Maybe it's going to be a pro touring car. I agree with those who said it's a replacement part - a real big one. If I had the money, I would buy one instead of the knickle an dime method over a 4-5 year period. However, he should cut out my firewall/cowl with the hidden vins and re-attach. In my case, the doors, front fenders, front sub, hood, and trunk lid wouls all be original pieces to the car.

-Dan

Because it is a "LICENED GM RESTORATION PART". Period.

Ask goodmark/dynacorn how many frame rails they have sold? Tops, Firewalls, Cowls, floors, trunks? By your logic, there are a lot of "kit cars" out there, especially "supercars". Copos and the like were meant for one thing. To run, and run hard. Tubbed. Smashed. Blown. Rolled. You name it, many of them have the above parts replaced. Are you saying that whatever% of these cars are also kit cars?

If not, then again, how much metal is too much? How much before you consider it a kit car?

Again, I still say that a 69 6banger and a ZL1 are the same car. The difference is the driveline and some suspension. That, and the history is what made the car special. What's more real:

1. A Dynacorn Body with a real 1969 ZL1 driveline, that was raced in the day
or
2. A ZL1 body with a generic Big Block?

How come when someone buys a "Z" and it turns out to have a fake tag, everyone screams that the buyer should have done his due dilligence. When it comes to the bodies though, it's "Oh, Fraud"? Usually those same people have cars that have had at least floors and quarters replaced.

The cars that have # matching (and born with) drivelines AND now bodies will always be worth more.

IMO, these bodies are nothing more than anagalous(sp) to replacement blocks.

The ZL1 body with a generic big block is more real. Logic dictates that what makes a Camaro a "Camaro" is the body..... not the drivetrain. If we follow your logic we could put the "69 ZL1 driveline" in a Toyota Corrolla and you would consider it a "real" Camaro?

Bottom line the Dynacorn bodied cars are kit cars. The fact that the bodies are licensed GM restoration parts only means GM wanted a piece of the action.. Period. As has been stated here over and over again the only reason people are swapping VIN's is to dodge DMV reg's and/or increase resale values. It is wrong ethically, even if a loophole is found that makes it legal in a certian jurisdiction or state.

Well, I guess we can agree to disagee. And yes, A ZL1 drive line in a toyota would be more of a ZL1 than a ZL1 body with a toyota driveline in my book.

You still have not countered my points on supercars/camaros that were tubbed and now are street cars, cars that have over 80% of their metal replaced, Frame Rails, ect etc etc?

How much metal replacement is too much? Who gets to decide? Obviously GM is Ok with it, the law is OK with it, and many of us here are ok with it.

Rich

Real camaro guys will be able to tell the dynacorn from the true camaro.

I own a Camaro, and I love Camaros. I do not know if I would be able to tell the real from the "new." Am I a Camaro guy, or a guy that simply owns a Camaro? I did a frame-off on mine, so I "feel" like a Camaro guy. :)

Rich,

This thread is not talking about a ZL1 Camaro. This thread is talking about the legalities of using an existing VIN to register a Kit Car Dynacorn Body.

You make the statement "Obviously GM is Ok with it, the law is OK with it, and many of us here are ok with it."

Why would you say GM is OK with it? Reality check: GM is OK with GM making money off of the sale of every Dynacorn body. Dollars are the only reason the Dynacorn bodies are officially licensed by GM. In regards to this thread, GM has no say in how jurisdictional law dictates VIN swapping.

The Law is not ok with it. In regards to this particular thread the car in question will be titled as a "1969 Camaro replica", not as a 1969 Camaro. This protects everyone who owns a Camaro that actually rolled off of an original GM assembly line.

Many of us here are ok with it? I think the correct statement would be "Not many 1969 Camaro owners are ok with it". Anybody with a computer that takes a minute to register on Team Camaro can post messages here.
If you polled actual 1969 Camaro owners, those of us who have invested in an original GM Camaro that rolled off of an original GM assembly line, IMHO the majority of these people would not be ok with it.

How much sheet metal is too much? That decision is for jurisdictional authorities to decide. The problem is the practice of swapping the VIN is done without the authorities even knowing about it. And the low life's and crooks that do this could care less about what the actual laws really are.

Again, in regards to this thread, it sounds like the shop that is doing the Dynacorn kit car build is also going to do the right thing and follow the jurisdictional laws (i.e. 1969 Camaro replica). However we all know that this is the exception, not the rule when it comes to body shop morality.

I do agree though with one statement you made, we can agree to disagree.

I also agree with Brackneyc: I thought I was a Camaro guy....is there a "Real Camaro Guy" test? For those of us who have never seen a real Dynacorn kit car body... how are we to know how to tell the difference between the kit car and the real GM body? Is there some sort of decoder ring that comes with the "Real Camaro Guy" test kit?

With all of that pontificating, you still did not answer the question.

Is the (insert camaro type here) with new frame rails, cowl, full floors and full trunk, in your opinion a "kit car"? This really is a simple question.

My point on the ZL1 is that as far as camaros go, a 6banger was the same as a ZL1, it was the driveline AND history that made the car.


And FYI, it is LEGAL in many states, as well as federal law. You may not like that it is legal, but it is, unless you live in one of a very few states. See
B,1,A below:

<<<<<<<<<<<snip from previous post>>>>>>>>>>>>
-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 511 01/03/05
-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 25 - COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY
-HEAD-
Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers
-STATUTE-

(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a

removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person

specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person

knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection

are -

(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle

demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to

such vehicle or part;

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,

obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary

for the repair;

(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number

for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;

and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters

a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the

Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner

of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate,

tamper with or alter the decal or device by -

(i) the owner or his authorized agent;

(ii) applicable State or local law; or

(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to

implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

<<<<<<<<<end snip>>>>>>>>>>>>

According to this, the owner (or his registered agent) has every right to repair his car.
GM has licensed it as a repair part.

What part of that do you not understand?

I'm gonna sleep better tonite for sure, and order a new body in the morning :thumbsup: :D Thanks Dynacorn ........



bob

John,

What about this car/thread:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=94831&page=1

It has had some metal work already, and needs basically the whole rear of the car. Is this a "Kit Car" in your opinion? Why? Why Not?


http://www.ahrconsulting.com/camaro/photos/2006%20Parts%20Inventory/2006-08-12-439.JPG



Rich

Rich,

Just can't stick to the topic of the original thread can you. Like I said previously, local jurisdictions make this call, not Team Camaro members.

The car you mentioned rolled off a GM assembly line, what's the problem?

I just hope you don't get this post deleted, like you did last time everybody didn't agree with you.

Rich,

Just can't stick to the topic of the original thread can you.

I just hope you don't get this post deleted, like you did last time everybody didn't agree with you.

John,

Still can't answer the question can you?

John,

Nice trick, editing Post 42 in an effort to circumvent the point, BUT you STILL did not answer the question.

Is this a "Kit Car" in your opinion? Why? Why Not?

BTW, I quoted the first post 42 in my post 43.

Rich,

Just can't stick to the topic of the original thread can you. Like I said previously, local jurisdictions make this call, not Team Camaro members.

The car you mentioned rolled off a GM assembly line, what's the problem?

I just hope you don't get this post deleted, like you did last time everybody didn't agree with you.

I guess I will have to quote myself. Same answer Rich. All the examples you have given are Camaros that rolled off of a GM assembly line.

Again, sticking to the topic of this thread, as long as the Dynacorn car is titled as a "1969 Camaro Replica" there is no fraud. Obviously for the car being discussed IN THIS THREAD, the jurisdictional authorities understand fraud, that is why the title will read "1969 Camaro Replica". The future buyer of the car will know it is not a 1969 Camaro, but merely a Replica.

Enough already, we have both made our points, time to move on.

The Dynacorn body is a repair part, no different than a quarter panel, dash panel, front fender. It is not a vehicle, and probably does not come with an MSO anymore than other repair parts come with one. End of that story. It is leagal to transfer a VIN from the original vehicle to the repair part as long as it is necessary to make the repair. I have no issue with someone transferring the VIN plate from a rusted out hulk to the new body just like many people (including me) have done when they repair their dash panel (in a 68 or 69).

My only issue is that in this particular case, the original car (yes the remaining parts of this convertible are still a car) still remains in one peice and will obviously be rebuilt by someone into a running vehicle, that will need a new VIN and probably a trim tag.

I agree with those who said it's a replacement part - a real big one. -Dan



I agree with that statement 100%


bob

My only issue is that in this particular case, the original car (yes the remaining parts of this convertible are still a car) still remains in one peice and will obviously be rebuilt by someone into a running vehicle, that will need a new VIN and probably a trim tag.

This is a very good point.

Rich

my cousin really, really wishes those coupe bodies were available this spring.
he got a "clean" big block 69 Camaro last winter.
he then decided to paint it- you know, a "quickie" to make it look good for his wedding in August. thought it would be an easy car to learn bodyworking skills on.
well, everything he took apart revealed a panel that needed to be replaced. the whole floor, half of the trunk, one rear inner wheel well, both rear outers, both front fenders, a door, both quarters, and about a million other big and little things i can't remember right off hand.
the dash, half of the firwall, and the roof are quite literally the ONLY panels that didn't get redone. he said he has close to $10k in panels- and he got a discount thru the body guy that's letting him use his shop.
the car is coming along nicely- he even used a pearl Orange paint from House of Kolor that most body men around here don't even want to screw around with- and it is probably better than most "pro built" checkbook cars i've ever seen. i've been trying to get him to come here and show off his work, but he is so computer illiterate and busy actually working on the car that it won't happen for a while.
well, anyways, if he had to do it all over, he'd just get the new body with the pre-fitted doors and trunk to "replace" the original junk and be done with it in 1/4 the time for half the expense.
and, besides, how much are original Cobras worth compared to the "perfect" clones out there, or how about a 32 Ford street rod built out of an original body compared to an aftermarket copy? people that know the cars won't get screwed over, and the people that don't, well, they need to learn what they are looking at before they lay down the coin for that perfect all original 69 RS/SS Z/28 with an automatic trans and 10 bolt rear axle..
the only difference between those other reproduction bodies and the Camaro bodies is that this is now happening with a car you own.

...................and, besides, how much are original Cobras worth compared to the "perfect" clones out there

I am pretty sure clone Cobras are very rare. Kit Cobras are very common. There were only a handfull of real Cobras built and still around and they are probably well known cars. First gen Camaros very plentiful compared to real Cobras.

First gen Camaros very plentiful compared to real Cobras.
i think that, if pretty much ANYONE were to see a car built with a new shell next to an identical car built from a real 69, they could tell the difference. but they muight have to get under the car and look at the gaps where the panels all come together.
cars from the late 60's tend to have a lot of gaps in then that are filled with putty when they are built. like 1/4" to 1/2" gaps in some places.
the new cars are supposed to have tighter tolerances than the new cars rolling out of factories today, and one would think that when you test drive it, it would just feel "tighter" than pretty much any original out there.
surely, it's more "work" when you go to buy that shiny new looking 69 Camaro that you just gotta have, but for the money you'd be spending to buy that car, you'd better at least know the basics.
now, if they'd just tool up for a run of 74 Monte Carlo bodies, all would be well in the world..