1968 rs/ss SBC 350 4 Speed Munci, 4 wheel drum

did all the body work, interior is gutted. Car runs strong enough for now.

First of all should i change out the front clip for a 71-82 clip or stick with stock year. (I would like to stay with stock however, i will be taking this on the track and in the canyon not a show car).

what should i do next?

roll cage
brakes and suspension
New heads and cam

The car is primered , i have no rubber yet in the doors, windows, trunk,etc. WIll do that next week



As per suspension:
is the tubular stuff worth it? I hear and read so many mixed reviews.
Should i do the hotchkits suspension package, the Qa1s, I have read so much and so many people point in so many directions. Ultimately, i would rather have performace that good looks.

Please help.

Thanks
D

Fisrt off come up with a plan, define your goals for the car and budget before you start spending any money! IT will save you a lot of time & $$$ in the long run.

The budget is: save up for one step, do it...wait a while, do the next step.
The car drives fine for the street, i am actually taking it to the drag strip in a few weeks. But, it is nowhere near road course ready. everything needs to be done. If i do the roll cage, i can put the harnesses, seat, carpet kit in (i do not have a cage yet).

If i do the suspension, i cant stop and i am not safe without the cage and harnesses...........thoughts?

Changing the front clip to a 2nd gen would be a huge project. You can do a lot with a stock sub, arms, shocks, steering box, etc. Hotchkis has some nice packages and there is an ice rebate and price right now through us. It really depends on your budget, we can help you with budget and planning if you feel the need.

checking out your site now...

Much more qualified guys to answer this post...but I'll chime in...Not sure what "level" of pro-touring you are looking for. IMHO, very loosely defined "pro-touring" seems to run the scale from better brakes to full replacement chassis'. For goodness sake, I'm not trying to start an argument about what pro-touring is, I'm just pointing out that your goals for the car are going to determine where you fall on the scale.

You mentioned track and canyon. Once again, not sure what this means exactly. Could mean A) Competive racing, or B)Car that handles better than a Honda Accord?

So with that said, if your goal is a car that handles and stops closer to a modern sports car than a 60's sports car, than I would do this:

1. Brakes - Modern discs up front...probably disc in the rear too. 4 drums is just dangerous with a V8. Probably will require some new brake lines.
2. Steering - a faster ratio steering box, lots of options here.
3. Suspension -
a. at a minimum, fix the geometry problems of the stock a-arms with the gulstrand mod.
b. replace all the rubber suspension bushings with polyuerathane. This will begin to tighten up the car at the expense of ride comfort.
c. Tubular a-arms are nice, but expensive. Probably one of the main benefits of tubular a-arms is being able to fit wider wheels/tires.
d. Front Anti-roll bar
e. Coilovers are nice. They give ride height adjustability and some ability to do suspension tuning. Lots of options. Definitely look at new shocks/springs in some manner.
f. Solid subframe bushings and subframe connectors provide a great deal of rigidity to the car, but the ride becomes harsher...especially with narrower profile tires.
g. Rear springs - New rear springs to match the front end upgrades. Several companies making springs that would work well.
4. Wheels/Tires - It could probably be argued that the majority of better handling comes from better tires alone! I couldn't back that up with any tech data, but tires make a big difference. I'd put the biggest tires that'll fit in the wheelwell on the car. If you really want to get snazzy, then DSE tub the rears for more room.
5. Seats and Belts - get 4thGen seats or aftermarket seats to hold you in place, and add some 3 point belts for safety.
6. Rollcage - Nope, unless I missed the mark on where you are going with the car. If it is going to be a competitive race car, then cage it. Once again, IMHO, you loose more than you gain when you cage a car if it doesn't really need it. You can't put people in the backseat anymore, and frankly, if you were to have an accident on the street going to the supermarket, your noggin could get crushed by banging into the rollbar...padded or not. If you have a cage in the car, you should be wearing a helmet.

Once you have this, then work on the engine and driveline.

This is just one roadmap. The aftermarket is exploding with exotic kits to improve handling from 3 links to air suspension to full IRS replacements...I think you can get 85-90% of the handling performance of those exotic transformations with better brakes, replacement bushings, new springs, and better tires at 50% the cost...

I gained a lot of inspiration for my car from David Pozzi's site and Carl Cassanova's site. Lot's of places to look, but those guys have some nice cars and have done a great job of publishing their legwork!
www.pozziracing.com
http://www.geocities.com/casanoc/

All the best,
Scott

all of my friends goto the track, i have been there with my daily driver. done a fair amount of cart racing, and i want the camaro to be able to handle and stay with modern vehicles. When it is safe, i will be taking it to willow, buttonwillow, lugna....5-6 times a year. I am also located near great canyons (please note that i am very respectful of public roads and do not drive anything remotely to fast or crazy in the canyons, nor do i cross over double yellow) and i do enjoy a spirited drive.

Thank you for the outline, that is what was in my head, but, my confusion is mostly with all the aftermarket products and what works and doesn't. I have looked over the 2 sites you suggested and will study it.
As per butting people in the car, i am not concerned with back steats. Also, i would like to keep this car street legal. The concern with the cage on the street is legitimate, however, i will want it for the track. As you stated, "even wrapped" it is dangerous, but, it is something that i will need. And if i weld it to the subframe connectors, the car will be so much more rigid.......

right?

Ok,
Didn't mean to talk down to ya with my post...I wasn't sure where you were coming from...I prefer people to talk slow and use small words around me. ;)

I guess a good starting point would be to find out what the rules and regulations are at the tracks for the speeds you are planning. That will definitely provide a baseline for what you need.

Sure a cage will stiffen the chassis, but for 5-6 times a year, I'd really have to think hard if it was worth it...especially if the rules didn't require it.

As to your quote, "with all the aftermarket products...what works and doesn't...", well I'm sure there are far more opinions than fact out there. Very few people have the means or opportunity to compare and use different systems, so what I see is that most people defend the system that they have chosen/invested their hard earned money in. I have the DSE package up front...it is a very high quality system...the car handles great, but I haven't raced it. There are friendlier systems out there to adjust. With the DSE coilovers, you have to break apart the lower balljoint and remove the coilover to adjust it, then put it all back together. I think the Global West / QA-1 design is more adjustment friendly...but how often are you really going to adjust it?

Hopefully some knowlegeable people will chime in with answers for you.
Another couple of sources for this type of info:
www.pro-touring.com
www.lateral-g.net
They are great sites, but can get quite technical. You could definitely benefit from spending a few hours searching here and those sites for the specific systems you're interested in.

For brakes, try Noel Garcia at www.Touring-Classics.com, awesome guy, very complete product...you could piece it together yourself and save a few bucks if you wanted. Another source is www.kore3.com, but when I last looked they didn't have a front system that would fit a 17" wheel.

Hope I didn't confuse the issue for you,

Scott

in socal, i am very invovled in the car community. But, most of the guys are running new cars at the track. very few "older cars". I spoke with a mechanic friend and i am thinking of the DSE rear tubs and the cage and sub frame connectors for the next step. I am a big fan of safety.........especially since i will be pushing on the track (when i finally get out there).

I do not believe that you were speaking down to me, to the contrary i appreciate your insight. It just get so confusing between the magazines and people who think they know but have never been on the track. As i said, i dont care about looks or name brand, just great performance in the end. I will check out the sites you suggested. Thanks

Dustin

I gained a lot of inspiration for my car from David Pozzi's site and Carl Cassanova's site. Lot's of places to look, but those guys have some nice cars and have done a great job of publishing their legwork!
www.pozziracing.com
http://www.geocities.com/casanoc/

All the best,
Scott
I didn't see you raving about the info on the sites, have you read them?

CarlC has built a streetable 68 Camaro race car, we ALL have a lot to learn from him.
The only people who might know more than David about getting a camaro around a racetrack are Dick Guldstrand and Mark Donahue.

1968 rs/ss SBC 350 4 Speed Munci, 4 wheel drum

did all the body work, interior is gutted. Car runs strong enough for now.

First of all should i change out the front clip for a 71-82 clip or stick with stock year. (I would like to stay with stock however, i will be taking this on the track and in the canyon not a show car).

what should i do next?

roll cage
brakes and suspension
New heads and cam

The car is primered , i have no rubber yet in the doors, windows, trunk,etc. WIll do that next week



As per suspension:
is the tubular stuff worth it? I hear and read so many mixed reviews.
Should i do the hotchkits suspension package, the Qa1s, I have read so much and so many people point in so many directions. Ultimately, i would rather have performace that good looks.

Please help.

Thanks
D
hey i have some vortechs if u r interest pm me
dusty

my best advice is to finish one thing at a time and start from the ground up

Thanks for the compliments guys, but David and a few others have been my inspiration and idea generators. I've plagiarized a lot on my car.

So, my 2 cents.

Start by fixing the suspension and braking systems first. Safety comes first, and and powerful engine will get you in trouble faster if you do not have the the support systems to control it. For suspension and braking setups, you can't go wrong with Tyler at ATS. If I could do it all over again.....

Second, I too have a lot of reservations about roll bars. However, I'm taking the plunge for several reasons. I want 5-point harnesses for track days, and they way they are mounted now is not the best and limits rear seat usage. I've been pondering a non-traditional method of mounting the bar that will allow the rear passengers to travel in relative safety, and and at the last SEMA show saw it executed. 3-point belts will be used for normal street driving. If it all works out I'll post pics. If you are going to the track as often as you plan, a roll cage/bar safety system should be seriously considered.

And finally, have fun!

ok, so here is the next step:

DSE mini-tub, Cage, 6pt harness, dynomat, carpet kit, new seats.

Unless you want to run a very large tire in the rear the mini tub is not necessary. I run a 275 with a very thick fenderlip. A friend of mine also has a '68 with the outer fenderlip trimmed. He did this when replacing the quarters but it could also be done using quarters that are already in place. He can easily fit a 295 tire. No special fuel tank, shackles, etc.

Unless you want to run a very large tire in the rear the mini tub is not necessary. I run a 275 with a very thick fenderlip. A friend of mine also has a '68 with the outer fenderlip trimmed. He did this when replacing the quarters but it could also be done using quarters that are already in place. He can easily fit a 295 tire. No special fuel tank, shackles, etc.


interesting. i will have to examine that as well. (so much to learn!)

for a corner carver, you need a big front tire, you don't really want the backs to be 4" wider than the fronts. The front on a stock 68 is at the absolute limit at a 245. A 275 will fit in the back. Carl worked real hard to get a 275 in front, and I'm sure the difference was huge.

For your intended use you`ll want to stiffen the chassis for sure so subframe connectors,solid or at least poly subframe bushings and a cage are all good ideas. If you do a full cage be very concious as to how close the bars are to your noggin. Remember on the street you won`t be wearing a helmet and a side impact collision could really ruin your day. I mention it because I had a friend who was paralyzed that way.
A set of Hotchkis (or DSE,or GW) springs all the way around will be a big step in the right direction. They`re all good so you may as well get the Hotchkis while Frank has that rebate going on. The Hotchkis/Bilstein shocks are really nice on the street but since you intend to use it for both street and track I`d really suggest a good set of adj. shocks like Varishock QS1s. The ability to have a nice street ride like the H/B shocks and then crank them up harder for the track will come in very handy! To say nothign of being able to tweak the handling characteristics (oversteer/understeer etc.). You could do link suspension in the back and coilovers all the way around but you can get really good performance out of good leaf springs and adj. shocks for much less money.
The stock front end geometry needs help bigtime. Aftermarket upper arms that allow a better static alignment will help but actual geometry changes will help even more. The ATS/AFX tall aluminum spindles are great pieces! They fix the camber curve and roll center issues,drop the car about 1" and correct almost all of the factory bumpsteer by relocating the steerign arms. You can bolt ANY C5 or C6 brake to them so you can go from inexpensive factory C5 13" dual piston PBRs to 15" 6 piston monoblock monsters. An interesting note is that since the AFX spindles use their own wheel hubs and brake brackets kits tend to be much cheaper than for stock spindles. Ex. Baer 13" GT system for the AFX are $700 less than for the OE spindles! For dual purpose use they`re perfect combined with our fully adj. tubular upper arms (SC-AFX). Put a matching rear disc setup on it and a 1" front bar and you`ll have a very serious package that works great both on the street and track.
For wheels and tires I`d keep the sizes down to earth (say 245/275) and use the money saved on a mini tub for a couple sets of R compound tires for the track. You`ll get much better performance with less hassle. There`s more than one good way to do this but that`s my take on it. Mark SC&C

s4dustin,
I think ur safe with ur next step u stated above. I would put brakes at the top of ur list. Before u go out and buy a set of disc brakes, I would strongly consider and aftermarket front subframe. U can order them with the disc brakes, rack and pinion and coil overs all at once and be done with the front. Then address the rear suspension when money allows. CarlC is right about the tires. I'm running 275/40/17's in the rear with no modifications other than willwood discs at all four corners.

my guy is working on the cage, subframe connectors. I have picked out the brakes, wilwoods, need to pick out wheels and then i am done for a while. need to refill the old camaro fund.

but, you guys dont think i should tub the back? I plan on running 17 inch tires and wheels, but figured the mini tub with 315-335 would handle well and look great.

as per the front clip, my guy suggested that, but i dont have the money. perhaps down the road i will do it. I would like to get to a point where the car is safe and i can get it out to WIllow. I am thinking by the end of summer, i should have the suspension set up...and off i go...

im in a similar position with my 68 , i wanted a good road rally car that handles like new. i bought the car 2 years ago its been in my mechanics shop for 1-1/2 years now. he did have a heart bypass so some time was wasted on that but he's okay now. i decided to use chassiworks front clip with coil overs , power rack, 6 piston discs, it wasnt cheap. i also replaced the 307 with a 350/430hp from the engine factory and a ron davis radiator. its finally all installed and im waiting for new brake lines and power steering hoses. then i can drive it finally. its the rear suspension that i have questions on. trying to find good upgrade that has coil overs and little or no welding and cutting. any suggestions are welcome. there's been many hard decisions with so many good products out there. curious on what choices you made? thx ajs